March Madness & Women Writers
With March coming up, and the anticipated March Madness sale Logos puts on every year, I would like to make a suggestion.
I noticed last year that for the first time (at least as far as I know) the brackets included a couple women authors. It struck me at that point that the brackets had previously included only male writers. They were primarily pop Christian culture writers, but I was pleased nonetheless. However, I think a much better job could be done on this.
What about including in the brackets female authors who have contributed substantial works to theology and academia? I include the following names that come to my mind, but I invite others to post additional names.
Beverly Gaventa; Candida Moss; Lynn Cohick; Sandra Richter; Karen Jobe; Elizabeth Achtemeier; Jeannine K. Brown; Catherine of Siena; Teresa of Avila; Morna Hooker.
Personally, I think this is important as it recognizes that women (although not always given the opportunity) have contributed in substantive and meaningful ways to the life of the Church.
Comments
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I like this idea and I would support it with votes and dollars :-)
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I'd vote for anyone who writes on good theology.
When will it start, March 1? Only 8 more days, yea!
Wouldn't it be great to have 100+ in the first round?
More important, wouldn't it be great to have every book for every author?
Dale Heath
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Jordan Litchfield said:
What about including in the brackets female authors who have contributed substantial works to theology and academia?
This is a great suggestion!
[Y][Y]
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Jordan Litchfield said:
Personally, I think this is important as it recognizes that women (although not always given the opportunity) have contributed in substantive and meaningful ways to the life of the Church.
Yes, having babies 👶 👶🏻👶🏼👶🏽👶🏾👶🏿😁 My vote 100% for Elyse Fitzpatrick also and Karen Jobes!
DAL
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Roger Dittmar said:Jordan Litchfield said:
What about including in the brackets female authors who have contributed substantial works to theology and academia?
This is a great suggestion!
[Y]
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Jordan Litchfield said:
What about including in the brackets female authors who have contributed substantial works to theology and academia?
Yes! [Y]
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Jordan Litchfield said:
What about including in the brackets female authors who have contributed substantial works to theology and academia?
That's the best March Madness suggestion I have heard in a long time. [Y]
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Bruce Dunning said:Jordan Litchfield said:
What about including in the brackets female authors who have contributed substantial works to theology and academia?
That's the best March Madness suggestion I have heard in a long time.
It was suggested before and that's why some women appeared last year. I would love for Karen and Elyse to make it past, at least, the second round. 👍
DAL
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Bruce Dunning said:Jordan Litchfield said:
What about including in the brackets female authors who have contributed substantial works to theology and academia?
That's the best March Madness suggestion I have heard in a long time.
Agreed [Y]
Pastor Glenn Crouch
St Paul's Lutheran Church
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Don't omit Loraine Boettner.
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Ellen White and Aimee Semple MacPerson come to my mind, although I personally wouldn't vote for either of them (but probably others would...)
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I have some of their material as part of a larger bundle. I wouldn't vote for them either even if I didn't have any of their material. The little I have is not that great...almost useless I'd say. Just MHOJan Krohn said:Ellen White and Aimee Semple MacPerson come to my mind, although I personally wouldn't vote for either of them (but probably others would...)
DAL0 -
Robert M. Warren said:
Don't omit Loraine Boettner.
I assume that is a joke. Loraine Boettner is a man.
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Meredith Kline!
PCA Church
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Dr. Kline was a man.
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One of the most stimulating things I've read in recent years is Katherine Sonderegger's Systematic Theology volume 1:
https://www.logos.com/product/53043/systematic-theology-volume-1-the-doctrine-of-god
Unfortunately it looks like this is the only title of hers in Logos, which would limit her as a March Madness choice. But I hope she produces the rest of the series soon and that it finds its way into Logos.
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In addition to having women authors, I would like to suggest a format that would allow authors from different traditions to get further into the tournament. Have authors from the same traditions go head to head in different brackets. That would mean that there would be at least some from each tradition that would receive the higher discounts, and each tradition would have a better chance of getting to the final four. I recognize that I left out the SDA authors. This is illustrative only. Perhaps two of the smaller traditions would be merged for the tournament.
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I would love a chance to vote for Evelyn Underhill and get a discount on her collection.
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Just thinking this logically to its end.
Say we have a women's bracket and a men's bracket.
Geno Auriemma, head coach of the University of Connecticut women's basketball team, would sweep the whole Women's tourney, and we'd find ourselves stuck with his lone book:
*
... nm
*Currently not in Vyrso or Logos
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Sean said:
One of the most stimulating things I've read in recent years is Katherine Sonderegger's Systematic Theology volume 1:
Yes, I've dipped into that book and she is excellent. As you say, hopefully the rest of the series will be available soon.
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Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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scooter said:
[Y][Y]
listening to her audio book "Secret thoughts of an Unlikely Convert." Important voice in the discussion on faith and sexuality. Need her books.
I would also like Dorothee Soelle (various spellings), but I do not see any monographs of hers within Logos. Sad.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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There are some excellent suggestions in this thread for our March Madness sales. Thank you to everyone that has commented for their feedback! I'll make sure our marketing team has some eyes on this to see what we can do.
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Hello, everyone, and thanks again for the feedback. It's too late for us to change the authors to our March Madness bracket, but we do have some women in the line-up. Just a few more days until you find out who they are. [:D]
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Kevin Olson said:
In addition to having women authors, I would like to suggest a format that would allow authors from different traditions to get further into the tournament. Have authors from the same traditions go head to head in different brackets. That would mean that there would be at least some from each tradition that would receive the higher discounts, and each tradition would have a better chance of getting to the final four. I recognize that I left out the SDA authors. This is illustrative only. Perhaps two of the smaller traditions would be merged for the tournament.
I think that's a great idea. It's likely too late to implement for this year as I would wager they've already got the brackets mapped out by now, but I'd like to see that in the future.
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Dale E Heath said:
I'd vote for anyone who writes on good theology.
When will it start, March 1? Only 8 more days, yea!
Wouldn't it be great to have 100+ in the first round?
More important, wouldn't it be great to have every book for every author?
Dale Heath
I think this is the ultimate thing. When it comes to voting, I vote for the authors I think are the most helpful to my studies. Especially if they write things I want but at a price normally out of my reach. I've picked up some good things that way over the years.
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Verbum Max0 -
Kevin Olson said:
In addition to having women authors, I would like to suggest a format that would allow authors from different traditions to get further into the tournament. Have authors from the same traditions go head to head in different brackets. That would mean that there would be at least some from each tradition that would receive the higher discounts, and each tradition would have a better chance of getting to the final four. I recognize that I left out the SDA authors. This is illustrative only. Perhaps two of the smaller traditions would be merged for the tournament.
It's an interesting idea, but I wonder if FL might be worried about it igniting a denominational fight. If the community could work around that, this would be a good idea.
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Verbum Max0 -
A double elimination tournament would also allow those who lose in the first round to get a second chance. Works well in basketball.
Dale Heath
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I am not trying to be the contradicting voice here, but I for one do not like this idea. For my part, I do not care what is the gender of the writer of a particular resource. What I value is the quality of the content of the resource. What I want to see in MM is the opportunity to get the most useful resources at a great discount.
Now it is a fact that there are more eminent male writers in biblical studies and theology than there are women, a direct byproduct of the uneasy topic of gender roles in ministry which is not without impact in academic circles as well. There are, however, very good female scholars out there (e.g., Adela Yarbro Collins, Joyce Baldwin, Adele Berlin, Adele Reinhartz [ sidenote: name your daughter Adele if you want to increase her chances of becoming a biblical scholar ]). At the end of the day, however, what matters is not whether they should be included because they are women, but because their work are top-notch.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I would hate for MM to become political and pursue the "inclusion" agenda. If we start down that road why stop there: let's make sure we have Black Americans, at least one native or Latino, representatives from British, German, and third-world countries scholarship, and we could slide into even more controversial such as someone with a different sexual "orientation". The same thing can happen with the denominational approach, which has greater validity in relation to FL's effort to reach out to different traditions, but again, an ecumenical agenda could take precedence over sheer usefulness of the resources.
Disclaimer: I am not trying to take anyone to task or open a debate. I am just stating my response to the idea of the OP and thank him for his suggestion even though I disagree with it.
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Trying to think through what the desire for denominational representation might translate into, I find myself uncertain that this would work out well.
Let's take for instance the SDA. Based on what I have seen written on the forums, I think they are quite a minority among users. If that is the case, perhaps one SDA resource could be featured, but it would probably not pass the first round.
I would think that this would be the case also for other denominations/traditions that have less adherents among the logos users.
This would mean that (1) if inclusion is for inclusion sake, I guess it would work though I find the idea somewhat silly. (2) If inclusion is to give minorities a chance to get good discounts on their denominational resources, they will probably never have a shot at a great discount; (3) Once all the minorities' work which are not priority on the wishlist of the majority are eliminated, there will remain less resources that the majority wants in the tournament.
As a sidenote: I often do not know what is the denominational origin of many of the writers I use and most of the time, I don't care. What matters to me, again, is how useful the resource is. A resource that is truly learned and insightful should be useful to all.
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Now, Francis, I know you're not naive. Your disclaimer rings hollow, especially since Logos already slotted the participants. No need for a disclaimer. White guys are fine along with a uniform northern European perspective.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Adam Borries (Faithlife) said:
... we do have some women in the line-up. Just a few more days until you find out who they are.
Um.... Unless I've missed someone, it appears that there is only 1 woman listed in the bracket!!
Maybe we can do better next year?
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Francis said:
I am not trying to be the contradicting voice here, but I for one do not like this idea. For my part, I do not care what is the gender of the writer of a particular resource. What I value is the quality of the content of the resource. What I want to see in MM is the opportunity to get the most useful resources at a great discount.
Francis, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I too am interested in the quality of the content of the resource. However, part of the reason male works are more well-known is in part due to the far fewer opportunities women have historically had to demonstrate their skills and thoughts in theology and biblical studies.
When I look at the current MM brackets, it looks decidedly androcentric. For some, that is not a concern. For me, it is. As you yourself have stated, there are excellent female scholars, but this is overlooked in the current format. Furthermore, if what is decided is worthy of being included is the popularity or impact of the author, then women are already at a disadvantage since they have historically had nowhere near the opportunities and continue to not get the exposure, as this year's March Madness glaringly demonstrates.
Grace and peace.
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Jordan Litchfield said:Adam Borries (Faithlife) said:
... we do have some women in the line-up. Just a few more days until you find out who they are.
Um.... Unless I've missed someone, it appears that there is only 1 woman listed in the bracket!!
Maybe we can do better next year?
I think they may be participating in the 24 hour head to head competitions?
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The one where you ask Faithlife to send you lots of emails.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
The one where you ask Faithlife to send you lots of emails.
Can’t find your favorite author in this year’s matchups? They may be featured in one of our new 24-Hour Face-Offs. Throughout Logos March Madness, we’re featuring select authors not included in the main competition in one-on-one, 24-hour knock-down drag-outs. At the end of each matchup, the winner’s works will go on sale! These sudden face-offs aren’t scheduled, and can happen at any time, check back often, or sign up below to be notified when they occur.
That's it!
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Well, Paul, maybe so. But the notification message and the well-read Annals of Faithlife Marketing make me dubious. That's an odd word.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Please don't take this seriously or be offended, I'm only joking.
Perhaps we need to have brackets for each color (4), gender (2), denomination (2), living or dead (2), and east of the Atlantic Ocean or west (2). That's 64. Then we could have other denominations do battle in the 24 hr bouts. I like the idea of double elimination. Losers could go into 24 hr bouts or a 32 slot loser's bracket. Just kidding.
I like what they've done so far.
Dale Heath
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Dale, please don't take this seriously or be offended ( this gets me off the hook). But let's not trivialize the spiritual needs of white guys from Europe and its former colonies. A basketball game is a chance to attract them.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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June Hunt appears to be the lone woman in MM 2017.... Don't think we need or should expect equal numbers but this is a sad turn out and feels more like a token bone thrown out there...
-dan
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I will point out two facts:
1. Logos March Madness is intended to sell Logos edition books.
2. June Hunt is presently getting creamed in the first round voting.
Quite apart from concerns about the undeniable dominance of men in this year's Logos March Madness, I have a serious question:
What women authors could reasonably be expected to do significantly better in sales ($$$) than June Hunt if they were in March Madness this year?
I personally can't think of any Catholic women who have the realistic sales potential of or greater than the Catholic men presently in March Madness, all but one of whom are losing in the first round right now.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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SineNomine said:
I will point out two facts:
1. Logos March Madness is intended to sell Logos edition books.
2. June Hunt is presently getting creamed in the first round voting.
Quite apart from concerns about the undeniable dominance of men in this year's Logos March Madness, I have a serious question:
What women authors could reasonably be expected to do significantly better in sales ($$$) than June Hunt if they were in March Madness this year?
I personally can't think of any Catholic women who have the realistic sales potential of or greater than the Catholic men presently in March Madness, all but one of whom are losing in the first round right now.
I think this is a critical insight.
The point of the promotion is to move books. I suspect we would better understand why the slate is what it is if we knew the method that FaithLife uses to pick authors for their March Madness. My guess is that, whatever the details, two prime considerations have to be 1) what's the likely level of sales for each author, and 2) how much room do they have to offer substantial discounts on the authors' books?
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Underhill very well might, EG White is another who might again, as to a living author I am not sure... Joyce G. Baldwin unfortunately only has 5 commentaries available in Logos, Elizabeth Achtemeier again has only a few books in Logos. I realize you need the works in Logos for this to succeed but it is a sad state of things that we don't have any women capable of being in MM beyond one. Many of the ministers I know are women, only one of them uses Logos, I wonder if that is partly due to the lack of females represented in the Logos library. I see 20% of pastors in the USA appear to be female, I think numbers within Canada are a higher percentage....
-dan
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I believe FL said that the brackets were already created, and that some women will appear in the face-offs this year.
MM has just started. It's too early to say that this sale didn't offer any significant discounts for woman writers.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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I guess I am not familiar with the exact concept. i thought the round robin format just took away authors not added more in latter... I have not been a big sports fan so I have little idea how it works sorry for my ignorance.
-Dan
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This is separate from (in addition to) the brackets. It's a 24-hour competition, and whoever wins that one-on-one Face-Off gets put on sale at the current bracket's discount.
Here's what the site says about it:
"Can’t find your favorite author in this year’s matchups? They may be featured in one of our new 24-Hour Face-Offs. Throughout Logos March Madness, we’re featuring select authors not included in the main competition in one-on-one, 24-hour knock-down drag-outs. At the end of each matchup, the winner’s works will go on sale! These sudden face-offs aren’t scheduled, and can happen at any time, check back often, or sign up below to be notified when they occur."
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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I'm sorry, but women authors IS NOT/WILL NOT be a good suggestion. June Hunt got smoked as I'm sure others will. The scholarship they offer, though good, will never surpass the scholarship of men. It's actually sad to see women authors get crushed like that. I love Hunt's works they are very practical and have helped me a lot. Karen is great on her three masterful commentaries I have of her (NIVAC, BECNT and ZECNT), but they would never make it past the first round since their works are limited in the Logos catalog.
So, to save them the embarrassment of getting smoked and not making it past the first round, just put their works on sale during International Women's Day this coming Wednesday, March 8th. (Say 40% off) or do a mini Women's March Madness on that day and the winner's works go on sale for 75% off.
Think about it, why wait til next year just to see them go down in the first round. Is not like having an all Women's March Madness is going to help make the competition more appealing or generate more sales.
I don't mean to sound negative, but come on, let's be realistic. Pitting women vs women would be the fair thing to do and this coming Wednesday would be the chance to do it and make at least some sales in the process.
DAL
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