NA28 w/Critical Apparatus Hebrew Equivalent?

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Posts 9023
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 5 2018 6:58 AM

That's easy; Logos isn't a cornaecopia of choices in this area.

Hebrew:

Lexicons; HALOT. Some mention DCH, maybe because more concise for quick use. TDOT is a good supplement.

Apparatus: Big-boy as above; you need the basic one for coverage; Quinta for more depth.

LXX:

Lexicons: LSJ to get back to that general time period, but always guessing. 

Apparatus: Gottingen, easy. 

Syriac:

Lexicons: Compendious/Paine

Apparatus: Leiden

Latin:

Lexicons: Lewis & Short

Apparatus: no critical editions


Posts 149
Alexander Fogassy | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 5 2018 8:40 AM

Okay great thank you so much. I have been thinking of HALOT...right now I only have BDB. I'm about to go into my second semester of Hebrew, so perhaps my knowledge is too limited to really appreciate either. 

You say Logos isn't the greatest when it comes to choices...what are some titles you wish they offered and I thought that this kind of thing was Logos "bread and butter"? 

Posts 9023
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 5 2018 10:10 AM

If you scan Accordance, the two are pretty much the same choices these days, ignoring price. 

And at this point, your subject area defines your 'outside-Logos'. Which journals. Which POV's (I mentioned Tov earlier). Logos tends to not stray too far from either the early 1900s, both OT and NT. The jewish-side (understandably) doesn't stray too far from pre-LXX. So, you're on your own, elsewise.

I arrived from the sceptic (fundementalist apologetics) and technologist side. So, I leave the train fairly early, absent data. I wrote software to evaluate the authorship, and timing of the hebrew. Then, likely redaction layers and from whense. Ditto the OT/NT greek, pseudepigrapha, and early fathers.

I would not be a good opinion for you!


Posts 149
Alexander Fogassy | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 6 2018 12:09 PM

I don't know why you aren't a good opinion.

Do you think your training in this area has cast doubt on the reliability of our manuscripts?

Posts 9023
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 6 2018 1:06 PM

'Reliability' depends on comparing to something else. And therein lies the problem. Take, for example, 'Paul' from a writings perspective. Who is he?

You can take the Paulines, feed it into your neural software, and have it learn how to write 'Paul'. But is that really 'Paul' or several Pauls (the 'signature')? So, you scan each writing (and section) and see if the neural had trouble reproducing 'Paul'. And indeed, the neural has trouble with 1 Tim, Titus, but not 2 Tim. And 2 Thes is error prone, but 1 Thes isn't. 

And so on. Eventually, you arrive at degrees of consistency and easy matches, vs more difficult. 2 Cor is an easy match to Gal, but not 1 Cor. So, then you start scanning 1 Cor to see where the trouble is. Was it redacted? The Paulines arrived as a package fairly late; not individually. And so on. Choosing manuscript groups can alter the signatures, so they have to be checked.

From a technical point, there's no 'reliability' unless you had the original. And if you did, you'd be done.

The OT is similar. By and large, the neural nets, having no knowledge of hebrew (just gibberish being fed) reflect general opinions about the books. Deu tends to match early Isa but not late-Isa. Late-Isa easily matches the Chronicles and Ezr/Neh. And so forth. But since you don't have an original, it's mainly a series of matches ... very similar to a puzzle.

If indeed, you can 'nail' a writing to a time period, and for several time-points, then you can measure style-shifts. And then match against the texts to locate possible redactions and maybe when.

Hopefully you can see the computing problem. 

'Doubts' don't exist, except relative to a claim. That's why I'm a 'literalist' ... deal with what's there. Everything else is guesses.


Posts 149
Alexander Fogassy | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 8 2018 8:23 PM

Interesting thoughts. I wonder if you are familiar with the works of Dr. Michael Kruger. He has done some really good work in this area. 

Back to the topic: do you have the BHS with morphology? (I guess there's only one, looking at this one https://www.logos.com/product/27271/biblia-hebraica-stuttgartensia-with-werkgroep-informatica-vrije-universiteit-morphology). 

If so, could you post a screenshot of what "goodies" this product gives you? The Logos page talks about "verbal pointing" and enhanced morphology in Logos...but there's no video. I'd love to see exactly how it presents itself. 

Thanks!

Posts 379
Mary-Ellen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 12 2018 7:46 AM

Denise:
Some mention DCH, maybe because more concise for quick use.

I think it's also possible that DCH also includes more sources than HALOT, because of the publication of more DSS manuscripts in the intervening years?

Toshiba Satellite L50t-B, Intel Core i7 2.0 & 2.6 GHz, 16GB RAM, Windows 10 Pro 64-bit

iPad Air, 128 GB

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Posts 9023
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 13 2018 5:15 PM

Mary-Ellen:

Denise:
Some mention DCH, maybe because more concise for quick use.

I think it's also possible that DCH also includes more sources than HALOT, because of the publication of more DSS manuscripts in the intervening years?

That's true! And why I got DCH, when it was prepub'd.


Posts 9023
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 13 2018 6:26 PM

Alexander Fogassy:

If so, could you post a screenshot of what "goodies" this product gives you? The Logos page talks about "verbal pointing" and enhanced morphology in Logos...but there's no video. I'd love to see exactly how it presents itself. 

Sorry, been on vacation; no PC. I was going to upload screenshots of the 7 choices, but the forum software server not accepting.  I really wish Logos could learn how to sell their own resources. It's been mysteryland back to 2005 at least.  Buy and return.

Some notes on each:

1. Lexham Hebrew. The advantage here is it crosses all the Logos resources. Gets updates. The morphs are standard and include glosses. A separate  interlinear uses these morphs. Used to use Andersen-Forbes morphs (below).

2. BHW 4.18. Standard morphs; no glosses. But probably the most non-Logos up to date, in Logos.

3. BHS 2.0. Standard morphs, though the glosses are more specific. 5th corrected;1997

4. BHS/WIVU. 4th corrected. The morph popups similar to BHW.  Primary value is the structural tree diagrams, and syntax queries. See product page for more detail.

5. BHQ. No morphs; apparatus only. But the text itself will be useful (and apparatus).

6. Andersen-Forbes Analyzed Text.  I guess my favorite. They expanded the morph-tags. Structural trees. Syntax search. In Libronix, they included videos on how to use.

7. BHt. A 'recent' delivery and has a very involved tagging (and display). Primary value is in involved searches. 

Bottom-line: everyday use, LHB with or without interlinear. After that, depends on your needs. 

 


Posts 149
Alexander Fogassy | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 13 2018 7:25 PM

Interesting. Thank you Denise.

As I research more and more what Faithlife offers (various critical apparatus, so many Church Father works, and I just discovered Noet -- untold philosophical research just waiting to be done) I find myself wishing I had an unlimited amount of capital to just buy it all up as I pleased. 

Posts 1217
Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 14 2018 7:50 AM

Denise:
7. BHt. A 'recent' delivery and has a very involved tagging (and display). Primary value is in involved searches. 

The cryptology of BHt points to https://www.logos.com/product/27275/biblia-hebraica-transcripta 

It is a transcription, which means an augmented transliteration. It has more information than just a transliteration.

Searches find words, roots, and morphology, but with some ingenuity can be used for syntax and clause searches. Good for language nerds.

Some screenshots:

 

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 8.1

Posts 1217
Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 14 2018 12:13 PM

I came across this, may be an interesting book although it is not the answer for the original question. I guess it will be many days before it is available for the users in Logos.

https://www.logos.com/product/144707/old-testament-textual-criticism-a-practical-introduction-2nd-edition

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 8.1

Posts 9023
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 14 2018 12:46 PM

Veli Voipio:

I came across this, may be an interesting book although it is not the answer for the original question. I guess it will be many days before it is available for the users in Logos.

https://www.logos.com/product/144707/old-testament-textual-criticism-a-practical-introduction-2nd-edition

I was a little queasy about another intro book. So I checked on the Hosea peshitta book. I was all ready to order, and then I saw ‘Brill’:

https://www.amazon.com/Translation-Translator-Monographs-Institute-Amsterdam-Studies/dp/9004288309 


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