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This post has 389 Replies | 32 Followers

Posts 20
Sojourner | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 7:06 AM

Bob Pritchett:

danwdoo:
Are these connect tiers like the base packages where the books are periodically switched out for new ones with new versions of Logos?

Yes, which is one of the reasons it's hard to dynamically price them... they will be changing as our contracts change, as our base package libraries change, etc. (Just as which movies Netflix offers is changing every month.) We believe this to be a benefit, and hope you'll generally see the value grow, not just change. 

With that said, I don't expect the changes to be frequent, or massive. They may more often follow major changes in our base packages.

Just trying to brainstorm some other ways to make this work better. Right now, I can only see this subscription as discouraging purchases. Would it be possible to pick the library we are subscribing to? For example, I own Standard Platinum. If I subscribe to FC, could I choose P&C rather than Standard? Assuming that going forward, FL will continue to keep the different denomination bundles. Could I be given a chance to change my subscription library every 6 or 9 months? This would allow me the ability to treat the subscription different mentally and provides less impact to dynamic pricing. I am assuming that most of your market purchases a Standard library. Rather than renting books I may own, my subscription would be to preview books I may buy.

It's not ideal. There is no "ideal" solution based on what I have read so far. I'm trying to think of ways that could make this more palatable and encourage purchases.

Posts 157
Donn Arms | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 7:14 AM

Please answer a "but how does this affect ME" kind of question. I signed up for Now rather than upgrade to Logos 7. My thinking was that at $89 per year Now was a better deal than upgrading every two years. Had I known that Now would last less than two years I would have upgraded. So now, when L8 appears, I will not be upgrading from L7 but from L6. Am I better off upgrading now to the L7 "Starter feature set" (I do not need any more books) for my dynamic price of $50.20 and then to L8 at that time, or should I wait until L8 appears and upgrade then from L6? My email informs me I will get a $200 credit/coupon code.

Posts 3020
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 7:17 AM

Donn Arms:
Am I better off upgrading now to the L7 "Starter feature set" (I do not need any more books) for my dynamic price of $50.20 and then to L8 at that time, or should I wait until L8 appears and upgrade then from L6?

Phil recommended that it would be better to wait for L8.

Posts 44
Daniel Bender | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 7:19 AM

JT (alabama24):
I think you are completely wrong about the "primary value" of LN. The reason so many were sold on the membership is that it was an alternative to purchasing features. Users could "buy" books and have an inexpensive means to keep "up to date" on features. In your words, "just a few dollars each month."

This is exactly why I joined LN

Posts 1392
James Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 7:23 AM

Bob Pritchett:
If you didn't get an email, ... contact us. We'll make it right.

I hadn't received the email so I contacted customer service yesterday specifically asking about an email containing a coupon which I had read about on the forums, and 30 minutes later I received a generic customer service reply:

Dear James,

 Thank you for contacting us! The information about Faithlife connect as you can see we have a lot of forums   https://community.logos.com/forums/p/160514/956980.aspx and information comes here https://connect.faithlife.com/ https://connect.faithlife.com/logos If you are a Logos now member, don’t worry you’re not losing anything actually you’re winning a lot more

Here https://www.logos.com/compare/feature-sets shows you what are you winning

Sincerely,

Andrea Cruz
Faithlife Support Department
800-875-6467 | 360-527-1700 | UK Callers: 0(871)218-1700

www.Logos.com/Support - Logos Support
www.Logos.com/Videos - Training Videos
You study with Logos, now present with Proclaim.

There was no coupon or anything about credits or sales or special offers specific to me (and I would think I fall in the "handful of customers" who have spent over $20,000 on this investment over the last 7 or 8 years). And I will say I have been very impressed with Logos and Faithlife, but I would like to receive this email/coupon you've referred to. I just don't know who else to contact.

Logos 8  | Dell Inspiron 7373 | Windows 10 Pro 64, i7, 16GB, SSD | iPhone X | iMac 27" i7, 16GB, SSD | OS 10.13

Posts 126
Pastor Greg | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 7:51 AM

Bob, thanks for explaining the situation so clearly. Obviously, no software company, Logos included, can continue to develop next year's product on last year's sales. The $18k I've spent was for the product that I downloaded and have used since, NOT for indefinite future releases. Paying a comparatively small amount for the feature set upgrade every couple of years (about $150 for Logos 7) is a really inexpensive way to make sure that my Macbook Pro and Logos continue to get along. I don't have to purchase the same books over again, so I don't see the problem. 

Logos Now cost more to develop than it ever earned in subscriptions, and was adopted by so few that keeping it going made no sense. Purchase sales have flattened to the point where some kind of subscription model is necessary if Logos is to continue to function in the future. 

Got it. 

Thanks again for explaining it!

Greg Lawhorn

Posts 1043
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 7:54 AM

Bob Pritchett:

Thinking:

Bob Pritchett:
We also need to support the pure transactional model for people who want to 'buy it, own it, and not have to pay again.' That's what we've always offered, and what we plan to continue to offer.

That is a very worrisome statement. It is far less assuring than statements you have made in the past.

I'm sorry -- I didn't mean it to be any different than past statements on the subject. We have no plans to discontinue the transactional model.

Don't forget that you're on a forum of exegetes. Every word you say will get dissected for meaning, context and inference. Ironically, your software helped train us for that in part. Anyway, I'm going to fire up a couple of Logos Guides on this thread so that fully understand what everyone here is saying...

Posts 1043
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:02 AM

Bob Pritchett:

danwdoo:
Are these connect tiers like the base packages where the books are periodically switched out for new ones with new versions of Logos?

Yes, which is one of the reasons it's hard to dynamically price them... they will be changing as our contracts change, as our base package libraries change, etc. (Just as which movies Netflix offers is changing every month.) We believe this to be a benefit, and hope you'll generally see the value grow, not just change. 

With that said, I don't expect the changes to be frequent, or massive. They may more often follow major changes in our base packages.

This frustrates me about Netflix. I cannot tell you how many shows I started watching to have them yanked out from under me. I nearly made it through Columbo and then it was just gone. Annoying, yes, but ultimately harmless since it's just entertainment.

This is a completely different game. If someone is using a resource for study or research and it suddenly disappears, that could be catastrophic for them. They could just buy it if it's important to them, but I could see the irritation encouraging them to buy it elsewhere and start pulling them away from the Logos ecosystem. I'd simply encourage you to be careful about cycling through resources in a rental model.

Posts 278
Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:17 AM

I signed up for Logos Now to stay up to date with the latest features, that was the best value for me. Faithlife TV has become less and less desirable because there are the "same ole' programs and so many programs on there now  you have to purchase; so that is very little value to me. I will not be renewing and have been looking at Accordance Bible Software. To me, do not raise the prices on current customers. The problem that I have and I think that others are having is that they see the price being raised for no more benefits, and I did not see in the long explanation of Bob where the "extra" value is at this time. I appreciate the fact that you have given 9 months notice, but the fact remains that it is double the money for no more benefit. As customers we expect that you "did your homework" on price before you publish it and if you feel that you need to raise the price, it should be for more benefits if you are going to raise it that much. I believe that Logos is going to find that a lot of people will use the "credit" (which I do appreciate) to purchase the full feature set and not renew their faithlife Connect subscriptions (so I see that as Logos losing money). And unless you can add value to the increased price, more and more people will not renew. 

Posts 239
danwdoo | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:34 AM

Bob Pritchett:

danwdoo:
Are these connect tiers like the base packages where the books are periodically switched out for new ones with new versions of Logos?

Yes, which is one of the reasons it's hard to dynamically price them... they will be changing as our contracts change, as our base package libraries change, etc. (Just as which movies Netflix offers is changing every month.) We believe this to be a benefit, and hope you'll generally see the value grow, not just change. 

With that said, I don't expect the changes to be frequent, or massive. They may more often follow major changes in our base packages.

I understand this but do admit it's still a bit of a struggle for me. I completely get that price increases are needed and I am fine with that. I want the program to continue to improve and as I find it an invaluable resource, I am willing to pay for that. It's renting books that give me pause personally. I would rather have 14 books I get permanently rather than 140 rentals that may change, albeit infrequently. Perhaps I am in a small minority in this. I am totally fine with the other bundled features such as TV, courses, etc as they are ways to get the price where you need it to be and yet allow you to offer more than just the software for that additional price. It may be that I will just need to switch to a download package. I do admit I would really miss the free classic book if I did that. I always look forward to that search for a gem each month. It is a little hard that we have to wait with the uncertainty of all this for a while until we have the full details on Logos 8, though I understand why you had to announce this change now based on Now subscriptions ending.

Posts 1022
Keith Pang | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:44 AM

Don‘t use Greg’s suggestion of making people pay for the new engines that’s not smart. You will lose pretty much a huge part of your customers. Instead how about just giving the new engine with no features so it runs but people will pay for features

Shalom, in Christ, Keith. Check out my music www.soundcloud.com/kpang808

Posts 21572
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:48 AM

Keith Pang:
Instead how about just giving the new engine with no features so it runs but people will pay for features

This has been standard practice in the past - but typically about three months after the release of the major upgrade.

This is currently available - for example - with Logos Basic

Posts 1022
Keith Pang | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:53 AM

Graham Criddle:

Keith Pang:
Instead how about just giving the new engine with no features so it runs but people will pay for features

This has been standard practice in the past - but typically about three months after the release of the major upgrade.

This is currently available - for example - with Logos Basic

I know, but Greg threw out the idea of changing that to Bob and I am just saying that will not be a good idea if they choose to go that route in the future. I think it will make it worse.

Shalom, in Christ, Keith. Check out my music www.soundcloud.com/kpang808

Posts 1043
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 9:13 AM

Bob Pritchett:

Kevin A. Purcell:
Early on nearly every email from Logos was about the new version features.

Yes, it became the tail wagging the dog almost immediately, especially for existing transactional customers... which wasn't our hope or plan, but is what happened.

We'll keep looking at the options... though one of the points I'm making is that the pace of new features may be more irregular, or 'lumpy', which makes those in-between releases harder to sell, and has other side effects....

I've been mulling this over the last couple of days. I don't have skin in the game right now (I did subscribe to Now when it was monthly and stopped when it switched to yearly), so I'm not emotionally invested, but I'm not sure that this aspect of Logos Now was thought all the way through. I concur with everyone on the forums that the primary draw of Now was the cutting edge updates--that's how it was advertised. I do suspect that there is a correlation among forum regulars and this benefit of Logos Now, so I'm not saying I see the whole business picture, but it probably explains the outsized weeping and gnashing of teeth in these threads.

Logos Now was sold as a way to participate in the funding of continual development in exchange for keeping up with the cutting edge, and it was sold as a way to get updates without needing to buy the big upgrade with each release. Kevin and other users have clearly communicated this, and I agree that this is how the community saw it. This leads me to two thoughts:

1. Saying that it was the tail wagging the dog almost immediately tells me that you did not think the business plan all the way through. You wanted the business to go this direction by introducing Now and selling it a certain way, but you apparently regretted the consequences almost immediately. You had to know it was going to be the main driver of development, and I'm sorry it didn't grow to become the dog you wanted it to be, but the workflow out of creating Logos Now would have been no different whether small or big. 

2. When it's all set up for people to buy the subscription for the software instead of buying the package upgrades, and then taken away about one software cycle through the offer, you've got to understand that this will make people absolutely livid. It's clear now, but it should have been anticipated. You said we could keep up to date through monthly fees, allowed a big update and then took it away. That makes this whole thing come across as if it was a really hollow promise, and that's why so many people are ticked off and lose trust in the company.

PS on these thoughts: When I reflect on my own decisions regarding Logos Now, I suspect some of the difficulty it encountered was when it switched from a monthly to a yearly commitment. Instead of everything remaining small and incremental, it became a big commitment again. A $99 yearly payment feels awfully close to buying a big package again (a "half-package"). Yes, it's the same as $8/month, but so is spending $200 when the new version of Logos comes out in 2 years. I know you had to switch to yearly so that people wouldn't pay for a month of Now, upgrade to 7 with the discount and then cancel immediately, but I have a feeling Now could have been successful with a few different decisions along the way. I think you're right to  clear up the confusion between Now and Cloud, but I feel bad for both the company and the users of Now for needing to go through this exercise. I do wish you success and hope this new direction works for you.

Posts 2936
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 9:13 AM

Bob, thank you for your very lengthy, very clear, very level-headed post. This is excellent customer service, as is giving nine whole months of notice before making the switch. Nine months should be more than enough time for people with strong emotional reactions to calm down and get used to the idea. It also gives you more time to tinker with/improve Faithlife Connect, which is also good.

(NB: I have not read all of the responses to your post, just the first page.)

For my part, I think that what you are doing largely makes sense, and I myself am glad that Verbum Now is sticking around because it meets my present needs better than the present Faithlife Connect offerings do. Perhaps some of the people who want to keep 'old Logos Now' should subscribe to Verbum Now!

Posts 24
Matt Hudson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 9:17 AM

No. This is not like a magazine. You all said yourselves this is your "online service". It's not understood by the users to have an expiration date in the same way paper magazines do. That's not how any other online service works. At all. Anywhere.

Think instead if Amazon Prime renamed, dropped half their services, and told every subscriber they could have it back for twice the price. Or if Netflix did the same. That's the proper analogy.

This is shady. And giving a 9 month head-start doesn't change that.

Adding tremendous new features to justify a new tier at a higher price or choosing a more modest price bump would have been standard practice (for companies without a moral compass).

I am just so very, very disappointed. As someone who has been a loyal user for years, invested thousands of dollars, I did not expect so little from Logos. I have had my view of your business significantly altered through this.

There's an answer. Walk it back. This is does hurt you. And it violates a trust we put in you.

Posts 995
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 9:40 AM

I appreciate Bob's explanation.  The one thing that disturbed me about it was the suggestion that FaithLife would prefer to be on a pure subscription model. Personally, I prefer an ownership model.  I understand Bob's point about users wanting new features.  But...that's not where I am.  While I do want the software to be maintained and kept reasonably up-to-date with evolving platforms, it already has way more features than I'm ever likely to use.

For me personally, it really is about the books. Instead of renting access to a generalized library, I like building my own.  Right now I'm working full-time in a corporate job, and can afford to do that. It won't be too many years before I retire from that corporate job, and when I do I'd like to be able to continue using the library I'm building now.

Posts 2936
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 9:51 AM

EastTN:

I appreciate Bob's explanation.  The one thing that disturbed me about it was the suggestion that FaithLife would prefer to be on a pure subscription model. Personally, I prefer an ownership model.  I understand Bob's point about users wanting new features.  But...that's not where I am.  While I do want the software to be maintained and kept reasonably up-to-date with evolving platforms, it already has way more features than I'm ever likely to use.

For me personally, it really is about the books. Instead of renting access to a generalized library, I like building my own.  Right now I'm working full-time in a corporate job, and can afford to do that. It won't be too many years before I retire from that corporate job, and when I do I'd like to be able to continue using the library I'm building now.

I appreciate his honesty about how, were he founding Faithlife now, he'd probably go subscription only. I'm also glad that he's keeping the buy-and-own model that customers of his like you and me prefer.

Posts 439
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 9:55 AM

PetahChristian:

Donn Arms:
Am I better off upgrading now to the L7 "Starter feature set" (I do not need any more books) for my dynamic price of $50.20 and then to L8 at that time, or should I wait until L8 appears and upgrade then from L6?

Phil recommended that it would be better to wait for L8.

I've been lead to believe, that if one skips for example, from Logos 6 to Logos 8 (not buying Logos 7) then Logos 8 is going to cost much more. The recommendation to wait till L8 is ok but there is no specific reason given to do so other than a recommendation. 

From what I understand, barreling out of LN and having had L6, it would be about the same cost-wise for me to presently buy Logos 7 and when Logos 8 comes down the tubes, yes, I'm going to pay but not as much as if I had remained with L6. 

Has something changed or am I close to being right. I hope I'm near being right because I jumped the gun yesterday and bought L7. Please make my day and tell me I've made a horrific mistake!  :-/ 

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 9915
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 10:02 AM

EastTN:

For me personally, it really is about the books. Instead of renting access to a generalized library, I like building my own.  Right now I'm working full-time in a corporate job, and can afford to do that. It won't be too many years before I retire from that corporate job, and when I do I'd like to be able to continue using the library I'm building now.

As I watched Now's feature path at $10/mo, my impression was a yawn. I wondered how many pastors sit around counting theophanies .... if you're decently familiar with the text, an exactness I suppose is worth what? On the other hand, so many forum queries on speed, usability, maps (!), and so on. And DAL going gaga over pictures at Another Co.

Then there's now the dog-wagging tail problem, and the solution as free movies and some books at twice the price. 

I suspect many will take a harder look at exactly what the software improvements are good for, in their day to day spiritual life.


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