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This post has 389 Replies | 32 Followers

Posts 201
Jeffrey S. Robison | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 27 2018 8:31 PM

Roger Dittmar:

Jeffrey S. Robison:
And if you have read this long post, according to the Sermon Editor, that is 5 minutes you are not getting back.

Yes Thanks for the post. I count it as a 5 minute positive investment:)

I appreciate your comment.

Posts 17
Brian Price | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 28 2018 7:25 AM

I am thankful for my Logos Bible software and to the efforts of the Faithlife staff. I appreciate the struggle that they find themselves in and pray for their wisdom as they move forward. We are all vested in the company and need the company to remain viable well into the future.

However, I believe there are some great misunderstandings about the typical LN user as pointed out in this thread.

Here's my reasoning for subscribing. I subscribed to LN two years ago. When I did, I saw it as an opportunity to keep my software up to date with the latest upgrades without having to purchase an expensive upgrade every 2-3 years. I do not use Faithlife TV, continuing ED courses, etc. and do not want to pay for features that I will not use, even if those features are a small portion of the monthly subscription fee. Why pay for something that you will not use?

Also, I don't need new features every 6 weeks. Honestly, I don't keep up with it. Most of the time, I don't even take advantage of the free resources that are available once a month. None of this was a part of my decision to subscribe to LN.

However, I am interested in something. I would like to see FL focus more on polishing the features they have now before releasing new features. It seems to me that FL will introduce a new feature to advertise it's merits, but release it too soon before it's complete. Then they quickly move on to the next feature without finishing what they started with the last feature.

An example of this is the Sermon Editor. I LOVE the idea, but I always copy and paste the final product into MS Word to finish any document. Why? Because the sermon editor lacks basic editing functionality. At the very least, we should be able to change the font, the font size, line spacing, margins, etc. Features that most any document editor will allow you to adjust. Without these, it's mostly useless to me.

I use the sermon editor now for the ease of creating slides to export to Proclaim, but even then when it is exported it changes the format settings of the slide from 4:3 to 16:9. I've contacted Proclaim about this and acknowledged this was a bug. I'm still waiting on a solution, but haven't had a response from them.

So, I have to edit my sermons in Word, and I have to basically recreate my slides in Proclaim. What's the point then? It's a good idea! I love the idea, but they introduced it and seemingly forgot about it before it was finished.

Another example is the formatting of the style to export Biblical text. Currently in order to change whether or not you want footnotes, citations, red letters, bold, etc. you have to enter what equates to code. Here's an example of how mine is set up now.

%NoFootnotes
%NoCitation
%NoRedLetter

=Header
<p><b>[FullPassageRef] ([Version]) — </b>

=ForEachVerse
<i><b>[VerseNum]</b> [VerseText]

Why does it have to be so difficult? Why can't we have icons or checkbox to make our selections?

So, my humble suggestion? Focus less on adding new features and more on making the software/features we currently have more polished with fewer bugs and more user friendly. If there weren't such a steep learning curve with Logos, more new users would likely buy the software.   

Posts 91
David Mullens | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 28 2018 8:02 AM

Brian Price:

An example of this is the Sermon Editor. I LOVE the idea, but I always copy and paste the final product into MS Word to finish any document. Why? Because the sermon editor lacks basic editing functionality. At the very least, we should be able to change the font, the font size, line spacing, margins, etc. Features that most any document editor will allow you to adjust. Without these, it's mostly useless to me.

I use the sermon editor now for the ease of creating slides to export to Proclaim, but even then when it is exported it changes the format settings of the slide from 4:3 to 16:9. I've contacted Proclaim about this and acknowledged this was a bug. I'm still waiting on a solution, but haven't had a response from them.

So, I have to edit my sermons in Word, and I have to basically recreate my slides in Proclaim. What's the point then? It's a good idea! I love the idea, but they introduced it and seemingly forgot about it before it was finished.

Hi Brian. I assumed this issue was because Powerpoint was set as 16x9 for new presentations. I do exactly what you do. I export from SermonEditor to PowerPoint.

Yes, the slides default to 16x9 even though I set them 4:3 in the SermonEditor. However, once I open up the PowerPoint presentation, I head over to the "design" tab in PowerPoint and then change the presentation from 16:9 to 4:3. I tell it to "maximize" (I'm not sure if it matters which option I choose) and boom slides look great!

Hope this helps.

To get back on topic: I purchased LN because I wanted to use the web app. That was it. It was worth $100 a year to use my Chromebook to do most of my sermon prep. Love the improvements on the webapp too!

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 28 2018 8:31 AM

Sorry for disappearing after a flurry of responses... I feel like I gave the best explanation I could, though...

We are still listening, and we're considering ways to change this plan to address the feedback you are giving us. Despite our (many!) mistakes and mishandled communication, we are always listening to and considering your input, because you are incredibly important to us and the reason we are here: to serve you.

Please give us a few more days to work out some alternate plans before you lose our number / abandon ship. We want to retain (or regain) your trust.

-- Bob

Posts 27
Matt Hudson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 28 2018 8:33 AM

Great to know you guys are still listening! I'm eager to hear about the alternate plans!

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 28 2018 8:40 AM

Brian Price:
When I did, I saw it as an opportunity to keep my software up to date with the latest upgrades without having to purchase an expensive upgrade every 2-3 years.

For what it's worth, this is an example of how it didn't work as well as we'd hoped. Most people purchased upgrades that mixed content and features; we thought that the Logos Now program would just spread out the 'feature' purchase over time, and that when new releases happened those users would still want to upgrade their library. While many did, many did not, and that changed the revenue mix (and quantity). Not fatal, but not what we'd planned or hoped -- but a result/reflection of more users' satisfaction with the library they already have.

This might have worked out if 'most' active users participated -- the increased percentage of users upgrading via the easier Logos Now price point could have made up for the less revenue per user per upgrade cycle -- but an amazingly small percentage of active base package users took Logos Now.

Yes, Logos Now was a killer deal, and because it was a great deal we expected it would be widely adopted. (If a company puts something out at half the price it used to, there's a hope it'll more than double the sales.) But when you cut the price and don't get any bump... 

Brian Price:
I would like to see FL focus more on polishing the features they have now before releasing new features. It seems to me that FL will introduce a new feature to advertise it's merits, but release it too soon before it's complete. Then they quickly move on to the next feature without finishing what they started with the last feature.

This is good feedback. Logos Now did make us feel pressure to 'put something new in every release'. Maybe you didn't expect/need that, but if its primary value is 'new features as released', it feels weird to not have new features often, and we did get some users complaining there weren't enough new things often enough, which led some of them to cancel. Maybe we're over-reacting on this particular point.... we'll take this into consideration as we look at this more.

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 28 2018 8:51 AM

Rob Lambert:
Bob implies that he can't stay in business with the Logos Now model.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough... we're not in danger of going out of business. The Logos Now model wasn't working on its own, but one of the reasons it wasn't working was that so few base package users chose to use that model. (For all the sound and fury on the topic, less than 4% of active base package users subscribed to Logos Now.) So it wasn't sustainable, but it wasn't killing us: even a healthy business doesn't want to carry a small 'bad-business product' inside the overall healthy, bigger business.

Rob Lambert:
Simple solution: Cut out the stuff we don't want and all of the overhead associated with it (including employees), sell those of us who have a bunch of books the software and charge for updates.

Well, as you can imagine, laying off staff and cutting back isn't a popular plan inside the company, and it doesn't bode well for the future. Salary increase pressure, morale, career planning, etc. are all pressures that get worse when you choose to shrink instead of grow -- and it's easy to start 'circling the drain' once you solve problems by shrinking instead of growing.

Moreover, as mentioned earlier, we made some firm commitments about making engine updates free, and engine maintenance is getting more and more expensive, along with baseline expectations for what 'minimal' upgrades mean.

Rob Lambert:
but the fact remains that I will still have to pay double for what I currently use.  This does seem like punishment to me.

I think that one things that keeps getting lost in this conversation is that we aren't forcing anyone to pay double to keep what they have; we're changing the product configuration. People are all getting what we agreed -- and more. We're just planning to not offer a particular configuration in the future (the configuration of just fresh features on a regular basis). And we issued credits to let you 'lock in' through purchase the features you were presently getting via the Logos Now subscription. So if you just left the subscription model, you wouldn't lose anything, you'd have no monthly expense, and you could still buy the new features when they shipped in upgrades. So while it's a different model (a more pure purchase model), it's not really a 'cram down' or 'punishment' forced on anyone; it's just removing the hybrid model (chosen by less than 4% of active users!) and using credits to put you back in the model you used to have, and which 96% (!) of other users were preferring already (as evidenced by their choice to stay with it, instead of going with Logos Now).

With that said, we're still re-evaluating and thinking it over... but I think the criticism as punishment/greed/etc. is a bit too far.

Posts 148
Rob Lambert | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 28 2018 9:26 AM

Bob Pritchett:

... but I think the criticism as punishment/greed/etc. is a bit too far.

I do too.

To Bob and the others who have worked so hard so that I can figure out Gen 1:1 (my current project) almost as well as IF I spoke Hebrew:

I have overreacted and behaved badly.  It feels good to complain and pile on.  You have done your best and I have piled on like many of my clients do when they don't get their way or the result they want.  I am sorry.

And guys, it doesn't matter that you have spent the price of a car for the capacity to figure out what God really met when he caused the Bible to be written.   Yes, it feels good to vent; but, enough is enough. You still have your car!!!!

I maintain that IF Bob can keep Faithlife healthy and chugging along (albeit with intermittent troubles) your investment will still be here a decade from now.  He just assured us we will have Faithlife for the foreseeable future.

That is what we all want.  

And, honestly, the Holy Spirit combined with the tools in Logos makes my Bible speak.  That is priceless.

So, I am sorry.  Please accept this apology.   You are NOT my pastor and owe me nothing but what I have paid for.... and you have not taken anything away that I owned.  In short, run Faithlife, keep it healthy and do your best.  I can't and shouldn't bitch about that.  If fact, I wouldn't want that job for all of the tea in China.

I am more interested in Gen 1:1 than this anyway.  AND, I just used my free new (rented for 6 month) course to watch Dr. Heiser talk about Gen 1:1 in his 12 hour course on studying Hebrew with Logos tools.  This course alone costs nearly $500 if you buy it and I get to use it as part of Bob's peace offering of Faithlife Connect.  I think I will put that into my pipe and smoke it....cause, its a pretty good deal.

No more complaining from me.

Rob

Now: Stop Complaining, Pray for Bob and go do something with God in the 10 minutes you are tempted to devote to saying something mean on this forum. I for one am going out to swim in the Caribbean.

Posts 3099
Whyndell Gizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 28 2018 9:34 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

You're correct. There's currently a one-to-one relationship between the following:

  • Logos 7 Basic Library and Logos Cloud Basic in Faithlife Connect Basic
  • Logos 7 Starter Library and Logos Cloud Starter in Faithlife Connect Starter
  • Logos 7 Bronze Library and Logos Cloud Essentials in Faithlife Connect Essentials
  • Logos 7 Silver Library and Logos Cloud Standard in Faithlife Connect Standard
  • Logos 7 Gold Library and Logos Cloud Plus in Faithlife Connect Plus
  • Logos 7 Platinum Library and Logos Cloud Professional in Faithlife Connect Professional
  • Logos 7 Diamond Library and Logos Cloud Premium in Faithlife Connect Premium
  • Logos 7 Portfolio Library and Logos Cloud Ultimate in Faithlife Connect Ultimate

That will likely change when Logos 8 comes out. They won't necessarily stay in lockstep. It was the easiest way of improving the quality of Logos Cloud libraries when we did the Cloud relaunch last year.

But presently, for example, a Logos 7 Bronze or higher owner would gain no new Logos base package library resources by getting Faithlife Connect Essentials.

Ok so I looked at my library (L7 bronze), and L7 libraries I do not show any upgrade till I get to L7 Silver- even though I have 15k plus library, and had platinum, and collectors (L6)- and L7 full feature set, till this round- by your explanation I am only entitled to Connect Starter- really like to know how that works. Also Baptist Platinum in L7.

I MOVED THIS TO A SEPARATE THREAD!

Posts 448
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 28 2018 10:15 AM

Rob, you might want to consider dropping that b word. A wee suggestion. 

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 1129
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 28 2018 10:31 AM

Bob Pritchett:
For what it's worth, this is an example of how it didn't work as well as we'd hoped. Most people purchased upgrades that mixed content and features; we thought that the Logos Now program would just spread out the 'feature' purchase over time, and that when new releases happened those users would still want to upgrade their library. While many did, many did not, and that changed the revenue mix (and quantity). Not fatal, but not what we'd planned or hoped -- but a result/reflection of more users' satisfaction with the library they already have.

The irony here is that this new model will make things even worse as far as purchases go. In an earlier post I used the word “punish,” perhaps a better word would have been “disincentive.” Let me give you an explain: I am one of those rare LN users who up graded their base package, but when I see that Logos Cloud is included, my reaction is why was I so stupid to purchase a base package, I will never upgrade again. In addition I participated in Community Pricing, but when I see that one of the benefits of FLC is a free classic work per month, my reaction is why did I purchase those in the past? Consequently I canceled all my Community Pricing bids. I wanted to support Logos, so I purchase Lexham Press books, but now they are offered as freebies each month in FLC. Consequently, I have canceled most of my Pre-Pubs. I purchased mobile.Ed courses, but only have time to go through about 2 per year. I am kicking myself for my past purchases and do not plan to purchase any more in the future.

 Faithlife Connect has made me into one on those, unsustainable customers, while before I am sure my purchases more than compensated for your cost of upgrading and supporting the software. Rather than spending $1000 plus per year and am going to cut down to $199 per year. How does that help Logos?

Posts 3
Jerry Griffin | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 28 2018 10:43 AM

With respect this is one of the most convoluated emails I have ever read (especially from a company).  I was trying to buy or subscribe to LOGOS for to give to a friend (and I by change found these comments).

Having spent over $2,000 dollars on books - I am afraid they will be gone someday. I hope when 'whatever changes comes along (or Faithlife goes out of business or gets merged - there is a procedure to download all our books to our computers (and have a desktop program) to do searches, etc.

I'll wait and see what happens - so today I bought $50.00 of real books for my pastor, and $200.00 of real books for me.  I might not be able to search them - but I sure own them.

I hope things work out.  I would suggest a 'strategic planning session (1 or 2 weeks) - make some decisions - and then announce them.  Included will be a 'download option' and a reader that will stay with us forever'. Maybe we have that now - but I'm not sure. 

Maybe Jeff at Amazon will solve the problem and buy Faithlife. I'm sure it is less expensive than Whole Foods, and will fit in with Kendell. :)

Posts 3
Jerry Griffin | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 28 2018 10:44 AM

Another problem is too many options.  When I start to buy something - I call or chat with a rep - and end up more confused then when I started - so I buy nothing.

I have no doubt they are working on a commission.

Posts 27271
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 28 2018 11:17 AM

Welcome to the forums Jerry! Smile

Jerry Griffin:
Included will be a 'download option' and a reader that will stay with us forever'. Maybe we have that now - but I'm not sure. 

I am not sure what your question or statement is... but this already exists. The Logos engine is free (and will always be so) and you can "download" your books. If I am missing something in your question, please create a new thread and we will be glad to help. 

Jerry Griffin:
Another problem is too many options.  When I start to buy something - I call or chat with a rep - and end up more confused then when I started

One of the big reasons for this change is indeed to "simplify." 

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 17826
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 28 2018 11:20 AM

Jerry Griffin:
Having spent over $2,000 dollars on books - I am afraid they will be gone someday. I hope when 'whatever changes comes along (or Faithlife goes out of business or gets merged - there is a procedure to download all our books to our computers (and have a desktop program) to do searches, etc.

Welcome Big Smile

Thankful for many friendly forum discussions: have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn. Thankful for Faithlife restructuring Logos Now for future users while taking care of existing customers (as technology transitions).

Thankful Faithlife applications for Windows and Mac do download all library resources, which needs internet connection for sign-in and download. After library is downloaded, indexing is done locally on computer, which is useful for searching. Also program settings can be changed to disable internet connection, which is useful when internet is unstable or not accessible. Logos wiki has => Online Only features that require internet access. For offline application search, larger library allows more relevant articles to be found.

Thankful visual filter highlighting that can combine hundreds of searches for simultaneous display works when offline: e.g. thread => more inductive symbols

Keep Smiling Big Smile

Posts 20
David J Heintzman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 28 2018 11:55 AM

After several days of reflection, I too think that I  over reacted to the initial news regarding Logos Now.

I get it that Logos Now is no longer a viable option.  I understand that Faithlife connect is an entirely new offering.  I appreciate the coupon code so that I don't lose any features.

My only real beef is with how this was communicated.  After all, the very first email I received about this said, "LOGOS NOW IS NOW FAITHLIFE CONNECT". This is a long way from clearly communicating what was really happening - that one program was going away, and something entirely new was being offered.

I apologize for the tone of some of the emails which I sent Faithlife.  I do believe, however, that given the way this was communicated there was a lot of fertile ground for misunderstanding, and many could be forgiven for thinking that they were going to be charged more than double to keep the features they already had.

Logos Now clearly IS NOT Faithlife connect, even though that's what the email subject line read.

Posts 148
Rob Lambert | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 28 2018 12:30 PM

Done and thanks

Rob

Posts 2235
Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 28 2018 2:35 PM

I have questions. If we keep FLC Starter and renew and after renewing we find we want the features in Essential at some juncture do we get credit for our expense for the Starter subscription? Or is there a time limit or do we have to start afresh?

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

Posts 27271
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 28 2018 2:45 PM

Beloved:
I have questions. If we keep FLC Starter and renew and after renewing we find we want the features in Essential at some juncture do we get credit for our expense for the Starter subscription? Or is there a time limit or do we have to start afresh?

Bob has said that his team is working on a response. I don't know if it will be here by the end of the week, but I expect it won't be too long. All of these questions are probably going to need to wait until we can see what he has to say. 

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 608
Dave Thawley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 28 2018 2:52 PM

Thanks Bob for your continued feedback here.  It is great that you are listening to us and will attempt to balance out some of the issues people have listed here. 

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