Thompson, John L.. __Reading the Bible with the Dead: What You Can Learn From the History
of Exegesis That You Can't Learn From Exegesis Alone__. Eerdmans. 2007. Paperback.
324pp. Slightly edge worn laminated paperback. $9 [633145]
Brandon, S. G. F.. __The Fall of Jerusalem and the Christian Church: A Study of the Effects of
the Jewish Overthrow of A.D. 70 on Christianity__. S. P. C. K.. 1968. Hardcover with dust
jacket. 294pp. G/G. Ex-library. Foxing/yellowing to outer edge of leaves. Mylar covered dust
jacket slightly edge worn. $27 [633036]
Mid-'40s 1) Talking 2) Chewing gum 3) Making noise 4) Running in the halls 5) Getting out of turn in line 6) Wearing improper clothing 7) Not putting paper in wastebaskets Mid-'80s 1) Drug Abuse 2) Alcohol Abuse 3) Pregnancy 4) Suicide 5) Rape 6) Robbery 7) Assault (Source: Time Magazine, February 1, 1988) Tex Ayers
Has Logos given up on older books? I’m guessing that older books were marketed entirely through Community Pricing.
I know when I first started with Logos, books were continually added to CM, and books were continually coming off it. But then the books being offered started growing at a faster pace than those that were coming off, and the whole program seemed to be abandoned.
I remember being told when I was in school doing papers that priority should be given to books published in the last ten years, and I agree that Biblical studies is certainly an area of research that builds on the work of the past. New discoveries do make a difference.
Yet the Bible is unlike other books, and Bible studies is far more than just reading the latest books. The Bible is a book to be meditated on, and you would be surprised to read authors who didn’t have all the modern possible sources of distraction.
There is no end to collections of books of writers from the early church through the Reformation. New editions, of course, but the writers are ancient. Pastors are encouraged to read Spurgeon, but we don’t read the books that he read.
I started my Biblical studies in the 60s before the flood of Christian books on the America market. The best books seemed to be mostly from Europe, and I regularly dealt with dozens of used book stores on the continent and in the States.
All I can say is that there were giants in those days, and we neglect them at our loss. Logos would do well to have someone explore the older books and then sell them to the rest of us. It's like buried treasure.
Larry, thanks for your observations about older books. I would concur with your observations about the importance of newer works for study while also not neglecting older resources, many of which are classics or have much to offer.
You are also right that older books have, for the most part, been handled through Community Pricing. I'm only add that Community Pricing books are primarily public domain books.
If you have specific books you'd like to see in Logos be sure to make them known through the Suggestions forum and promote them here to try to get votes to support your cause.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
Larry Craig: I remember being told when I was in school doing papers that priority should be given to books published in the last ten years, and I agree that Biblical studies is certainly an area of research that builds on the work of the past. New discoveries do make a difference.
The problem is that in order to make money you can not just say that those old timers got it right - why would anyone buy your book if that is all you say? So you HAVE to find 'errors' in their arguments to make money. Is the current author right or just trying to make money?
The Scriptures have been around for a long time. Who is or was right? The early church 'fathers', those of the middle ages, the winners of the 1850s, the losers of the 1850 wars, or todays author?
Over the months I have sent dozens of list of books, not all 'old', to suggest@logos.com. Are you saying that is the wrong place?
I have been working through Spurgeon's, Carson's, Longman's, Custer's and other's bibliographies of recommended books. There are many highly recommended books that Logos seems unaware of.
Are you suggesting that a book needs a certain number of other people wanting the same book before Logos will act?
Logos is a ministry, but it is also a business. The more books they can sell, the more they can grow. I think Logos should take the responsibility to search out good books, like taking the recommendations of people like Spurgeon and these others and then sell other people on the value of these books. If I need to get other people to 'vote' for these books, 1) I don't make any money to make it worth my time, like a business 2) too many Bible students today don't know the older writers, and how am I going to win them over? Make it my life's work? 3) my time and energy are limited. (Chemo is taking a lot out of me. Don't have the umph like I used to.)
Thank you
I believe part of the problem is the time and expense (and therefore the pay back) in tagging resources into the Logos format. Personally I'd be far happier to have in eBook format without the tagging than not at all.
I've worked in business most of my life. Logos knows what it costs to produce a book. Even with Community Pricing, the book had to reach a certain threshold before they would publish it. My bigger concern is that they aren't even trying to sell these books. It seems they've just given up. Go read what Spurgeon has to say about a lot of books in his book on commentaries. The new books give the latest discoveries, but many of the old books feed the soul. If you see Logos as a ministry, then they need to produce more books that minister.
Older works are often impossible to get rights for... community pricing works because they are almost always public domain works. I know Bob stated works published (I believe it was circa 1945-1990) often have fallen into an area that makes it extremely hard to get production rights. I agree there are a number of super works that are still extremely valuable, but we likely will not see them in Logos till they fall into public domain which may be decades or longer off...
-dan
St. Jerome's House † Install
There are still hundreds of books in Community Pricing now that I would gladly pay much more than they are worth to see them published. Many of them I already own in print, but I am very happy to pay twice for a book to have it in this format.
While there are many books that Logos may never get the rights for, I want Logos to try harder to get all these good books in CP published. It seems they gave up. Maybe not enough younger scholars today know the value of these books. Again, I believe it's Logos' duty to make the case for them.
Larry Craig:It seems they gave up.
They didn't give up, but resources (time & money) are limited... finite. There was a purge of CP resources because there were TOO many resources with TOO little interest to gain traction. The goal of the purge was to provide greater interest in the fewer resources, and in so doing, to help them to get developed.
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You know more about what's going on than I do, but I haven't seen a peep about CP in a very long time. Yes, there are a number of bundles that I think are of limited interest (Ukrainian history), but there are valuable works that have sat there for years. Names like Rudolf Stier don't mean much to a lot of people today, but when you read what other people say about him and read him for yourself, you wish other people could read him too..
I have offered suggestions for getting books out of CP but to no avail.
You talk about limited time and money. They wouldn't spend the money until they had the financing in place, so it's just the cost of having people write blogs promoting the books. They are already writing blogs that don't seem connected to future sales, so this should be no problem.
You say the goal of the purge was to provide greater interest in the fewer resources. Not happening. I'll stick with my original assessment. "It seems they gave up."
So which is the single book you are dying to have in Logos which you want to promote?
One??? I've sent dozens of emails to suugest@logos.com with books that I wanted to see. If you want, I will look through CP and find some. Get back to you.
Classic commentaries on Colossians
There are always gems in these classic collections, some more than others.
Classic commentaries on Mark
They used to throw in some foreign language commentaries in these bundles. This one has Lagrange, a classic.
Classic commentaries on John
This has works by John Brown, MacLaren, Zahn, and Luecke.
Classic commentaries on Revelation
This has Vaughan, Seiss, Milligan, Desprez, de Wette, and Boussuet.
Classic commentaries on Ecclesiastes
This has Genung, Elliott, Murphy, Durham, Lewis.
Life and Works of George MacDonald
CS Lewis was MacDonald’s biggest fan. Nobody would know about him if it wasn’t for Lewis.
The Speaker’s Commentary 13 vol.
The Biblical Illustrator
I have this in hardback and in another Bible program, but I would buy it again to have it in Logos.
Lenten Sermons
This has James Parker, H P Liddon, Bickersteth, Sadler, and who else?
Posthumous works of Thomas Chalmers
The Logos blurb sold me on this. See?
Classic Studies on Old Testament Theology
This has Schultz, Davidson, Hengstengberg (4 vo), Brown, Kurtz, Lindsay.
Classic commentaries on Job
This has Genung, McFayden, Bullinger, Davidson, Gibson, Umbreit, and Peake.
Classic commentaries on Jonah
The Life of our Lord upon the Earth
Samuel Andrews highest praise by Spurgeon, or was it someone else?
The Works of Richard Chenevix Trench
This has his works on the parables, the miracles, Proverbs, sermons, Sermon on the Mount, etc.
Select Life and Works of Matthew Henry
This has sermons and other Bible works.
B F Westcott on Christianity
Biblical Studies on B F Westcott
Kendrick’s Translation of the Vulgate with Commentary 6 vol
His extensive commentary consults important Hebrew and Greek textual differences and quotes from the theological thoughts of the Early Church Fathers—especially St. Jerome, St. Chrysostom, and St. Basil.
Classic commentaries on Isaiah
This has Driver’s classic work on Isaiah 53, plus Whitehouse, Kelly, Smith, Henderson, Durham.
The Catholic Encyclopedia
I wrote Verbum about this. This should be a part of their basic package. I’ll take a set too.
Classic commentaries on Proverbs
This has Parker and a commentary by Ibn Ezra.
Classic commentaries on Hebrews
This has Tholuck, Dickson, Steward, Lindsay, Nairne, Reuss, and Kurtz.
Classic commentaries on Psalms
This has Bush, Barnes, Kelly, Davison, Kimhi
Classic commentaries on Luke
Select Works of Joseph A. Seiss
Collected Sermons of BF Westcott
Classic commentaries and studies on Johannine Literature
This has Nicoll, Ramsay, Dennett, and Gloag.
Plain Sermons
Sermons by Newman, Pusey, Keble
Classic commentaries on Matthew
This has Dickson, McNeile, Zahn, Heinrici, Slater, McGarvey, and de Valdes.
The Collected Works of John Nelson Darby
JJ van Oosterzee Theological Studies Collection
Classic commentaries on Jeremiah
This has works by Henderson, Meyer, and Parker.
Classic commentaries on Acts
This has works by Baumgarten, Zeller, Owen, Parker, Thomas, Rendall, Sadler, Jones, Cook, Arnot, and others.
Sutcliffe’s Commentary on the Old and New Testament
W.O.E. Oesterley Studies on Judaism and the Old Testament (17 vols.)
W.O.E. Oesterley was one of the most distinguished modern scholars of Judaism and the Hebrew Bible. A prolific author, Oesterly’s body of work left an enduring impact on how we read the Old Testament. Though a brilliant scholar, he was attentive to the needs of the common reader. He delivered insights from complex scholarship to Christians who wouldn’t normally have access to such information.
This has his commentaries on Psalms, Proverbs, and Apocrypha and other important works
Wilson’s Old Testament Word Studies
He does an excellent job on synonyms. Much needed.
The Works of Rudolf Stier (12 vols.)
The Works of Rudolf Stier (12 vols.) includes all of the English translations of the German Protestant churchman and mystic Rudolf Ewald Stier. Stier's timeless 8-volume commentary series, The Words of the Lord Jesus, provides in-depth focus on the words and sayings of Jesus in the gospels. By unpacking the words of Jesus, Stier's commentaries engage the nuances and subtext behind each dialogue, revealing deep meaning and extraordinary joy found beneath the surface. Stier follows the same format in Words of the Apostles, his detailed study of the dialogues of the apostles found in Acts, and in The Words of the Angels, Stier explores the impact and meaning of the words spoken by the messengers of God.
Classic Commentaries and Studies on the General and Pastoral Epistles (16 vols.)
This includes works by Gload, Sumner, Hillard, Kelly, and Strachan.
Classic Commentaries and Studies on Genesis
This has works by Delitzsch, Bush, Jacobus, Simon, Preston, and others.
Select Works of James Durham (4 vols.)
This has his classic on Job.
Classic Commentaries and Studies on Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy Upgrade (14 vols.)
This has Seiss, Kennedy, Kelly, Saxe, Simon, Genung, Gibson, and Betterridge
Untersuchung über den Hebräerbrief (2 Bände)
This is by Wieseler.
Isaak August Dorner Collection (12 vols.)
Nineteenth century Lutheran Church leader Isaak August Dorner traced the roots of doctrine in a way never seen before. In his major works, History of the Development of the Doctrine of the Person of Christ and A System of Christian Doctrine, Dorner presents historical evidence and philosophical proofs for Christian doctrine as they were understood in his time. He tracks important theological ideas back to their conception and identifies their contribution to Christian theology as a whole.
Patrologia Syriaca (vols. 1–2) and Orientalis (vols. 1–14, 16)
I have enough work that I want to do to last me three lifetimes. I don’t know where I will end up, so I think big.
The Anglican Pulpit Library (6 vols.)
Trapp's Commentary (5 vols.)
John Trapp’s five-volume commentary, first published in 1649, has been a favorite source of biblical wit and wisdom ever since. Trapp has never lacked an audience, and has been loved by preachers and teachers throughout the years. At times an academic, a pastor, and a soldier, Trapp communicated his wide range of life experience in his unique blend of scholarship, practical counsel, and storytelling. He brings the artistry of the English Renaissance to his biblical commentary, which is as valuable as literature as it is as instruction. Trapp’s distinct personal voice distinguishes this commentary from others, and makes it a timeless classic
The Expositor’s Dictionary of Texts (2 vols.)
The Expositor’s Dictionary of Texts provides outlines, expositions, and homiletic illustrations of each verse of the Bible, presented in biblical order. Much more thorough and complete than The Expositor’s Dictionary of Poetical Quotations, this reference work selects the best of ancient, classical, medieval, and modern quotations on each verse of the Bible, giving full citations at the end of each quotation.
Bampton Lecture Series, 1780–1920 (127 vols.)
Select Gifford Lectures Delivered at Edinburgh (19 vols.)
Select Gifford Lectures Delivered at Glasgow (17 vols.)
Select Gifford Lectures Delivered at Aberdeen (13 vols.)
James Macknight’s Commentary on the Apostolic Epistles (6 vols.)
Patrologiae Cursus Completus, Series Graeca, Part 1 (vols. 1–18)
Peake’s Commentary on the Bible
Select Gifford Lectures Delivered at St. Andrews (15 vols.)
Charles Augustus Briggs Collection (15 vols.)
One of the editors of BDB. This bundle has a number of important works.
Encyclopaedia Biblica (4 vols.)
I still see this referred to a lot, and my copy is buried in a room where my wife has piled a lot of her stuff, and I would have to climb over a lot of things to get to it, so I don’t.
Patrologiae Cursus Completus: Series Graeca (167 vols.)
Patrologiae Cursus Completus: Series Latina (221 vols.)
Zeitschrift für die neutestamentliche Wissenschaft und die Kunde des Urchristentums (20 Bände)
Possibly the most important single journal on Biblical studies.
These are not all the books I bid on in CP, but you get an idea. Many of these I bid the highest price possible. Many of these I already own in hardcopy.
Why wait for new books to come out when Logos already has so many waiting to be done? They only need a push.
Thank you for asking.
Larry Craig:One??? I've sent dozens of emails to suugest@logos.com with books that I wanted to see.
But see, that is my point. You don't need 100 hundred people excited about a different book each, you need to get 100 people excited about one single book. Otherwise Community Pricing doesn't work.
We have seen CP pricing work for many titles, and there have been many who have tried to push this title or that. Some have been more successful than others. What doesn't work: A thread saying "bid on this." What works better: A thread saying "bid on this because it is an important work in the study of [blank]." What works best? A thread stating: "bid on this because it is an important work in the study of [blank]. This price is a steal because [fill in the blank] and it will be useful to have in your library because [fill in the blank]."
When people believe they can get in on a "steal of a deal" for something that will benefit them, they jump on it.
I start a thread and three people read it. And that's supposed to get a book to be published?
Like I said to someone, I spent my whole life in business. I want to see Logos do a better job at theirs. I often talk about the sample pages they put with books they offer, sample pages that show nothing about what makes this book what it is. A commentary needs to have sample of actual commentary pages, not introduction pages.
But I digress.
I have way too many books I am interested in, and I don't have enough time in the day to do everything I am working on now. Logos sells books for a living. I am and have suggested ways they can do a better job of it. If they aren't excited about trying to sell books, I don't think my little threads is going to make any difference.
Logos has given up on older books, and I think they are making a huge mistake. Look at all the books they already have in their possessions, books that they could easily push but they don't.
I don't want to play the sympathy card here, but chemo is taking a lot of energy out of me. A lot of things I just can't get myself to do.
But I still say this is Logos' job, and they are letting a gold mine pass them by.
For those Public Domain books that only very few people are interested in and/or that never make it through CP, don't forget about the possiblity to import them as personal books (sadly for Desktop only), at least until official versions are available. For example, there are a lot of public domain works available for e-Sword on www.biblesupport.com. I had previously posted a macro to help converting those modules and to add Logos milestones where possible: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/130215.aspx
Bernhard:For those Public Domain books that only very few people are interested in and/or that never make it through CP, don't forget about the possiblity to import them as personal books (sadly for Desktop only), at least until official versions are available
I would agree with this. It is the way forward for now.
Larry Craig:I have way too many books I am interested in, and I don't have enough time in the day to do everything I am working on now. Logos sells books for a living. I am and have suggested ways they can do a better job of it. If they aren't excited about trying to sell books, I don't think my little threads is going to make any difference.
CP titles aren't likely to be "money makers" for FL. The stated principle: FL finds a title and determines the cost to produce the resource (not to turn a profit!). They then list the title and let users "bid" on its value to them... again, not to make a profit. Only after the item has shipped and has left CP can they begin to make money.
Larry Craig:But I still say this is Logos' job, and they are letting a gold mine pass them by.
Like it or not, but older titles rarely sell well. I agree that there are many old titles worth having! However, there are many obstacles to gathering up interest... not the least of which is the time/language barrier. Many of the older titles worth having are academic in nature... and academic resources have a limited market to begin with. In most cases old books just don't sell.
Consider this: For FL to really market one of these resources, they are going to have to have an employee dig into it. How much should FL invest in a title headed to CP (again, not to make a profit)? Especially with the high wage rates in WA, health insurance, etc. it is easy to imagine a very basic job of researching and promoting a title costing FL $1000. For 100 titles (a drop of a drop in the bucket) that would equate to $100k... to not make a profit!
True story: My college roommate had 12 brothers and sisters. For a couple years of his life, his family lived in a one room shack with no running water. Over the summer heading into our junior year his mother inherited over a million dollars. His father, being so wise, invested in the land rights to an abandoned gold mine. By our senior year, no gold of appreciable value was excavated from the mine and the million was gone. My friend had gone from rags to riches to rags in a single year. (He is doing very well for himself now). The point? Sometimes gold mines aren't gold mines!
Larry Craig:I don't want to play the sympathy card here, but chemo is taking a lot of energy out of me.
Larry - Know that I am praying for you. I am sure that many others who read this thread will be praying for you as well. Feel free to keep us updated in your journey.
Bernhard:don't forget about the possiblity to import them as personal books (sadly for Desktop only)
Mark: It is the way forward for now
Another potential option would be for these resources to be simply converted as type:eBook... but expectations of quality and maintenance would need to be severely tempered. Unfortunately the hassle of user complaints would make this option unlikely.