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Posts 274
Mike W | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 22 2009 6:53 PM

Damian McGrath:

MikeWaterhouse:
sorry for the long Quote, I'm still trying to figure our how to shorten these up on the forum

Mike,

To shorten the quote, you simply select the portion which you wish to quote and then hit the "Quote" link. Voila'

Thanks, in some ways the old newsgroup software was easier to use.

 

 

Posts 602
Bill Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 22 2009 7:48 PM

So what do you think this announcement from Logos and Zondervan more broadly means for the Christian eBook file format war? Is the standard more likely now to gravitate around Logos?

Bill

Posts 5630
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 22 2009 8:09 PM

WilliamAAnderson:

So what do you think this announcement from Logos and Zondervan more broadly means for the Christian eBook file format war? Is the standard more likely now to gravitate around Logos?

Bill

I'm not sure there is a file format war.  Nobody is trying to create a cross-platform standard anymore.  Publishers just want a delivery platform that has a good audience.  Pradis was never in the game since it existed solely to publish Zondervan works.  All other publishers went to Logos or WordSearch or Bibleworks according to their goals (at least for Windows). My impression is that each of those products has a different target market (both for users and publishers), and they will continue to serve those markets.

 

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 22 2009 8:47 PM

MikeWaterhouse:
Zondervan lists these as two separate books,  The Pictorial encyclopedia is much smaller (864 pages vs 5616 pages)and about $100 cheaper.

Why thank you very much Mike.        I really did not know that. I have always valued the ZPBE (got in in Pradis and hardback) and if the new one is anything like it and BIGGER, that is worth buying in Logos in my view.  Thanks for educating me.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 22 2009 11:20 PM

Todd Phillips:
Pradis was never in the game since it existed solely to publish Zondervan works.
I am not surprised this day has come.  Zondervan had a bad marketing plan doing their own software for just their books.  That was not too bright... but in a down ecconomy the light-bulb has turned on for them.

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 653
Alex Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2009 12:51 AM

As far as I can see, the individual collections and 22 single books listed in the overall bundle come to $2161.69.  That's only $162.69 more than you would pay for the bundle.  I think I'll stick with the individual items that I might use - and is the price likely to increase from here???

Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.

Posts 128
Derek | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2009 1:26 AM

Personally, I think Zondervan is too concerned with making money, vs. trying to get these resources out into the hands of the people that could really use them. 

Posts 5
Kevin Stock | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2009 1:45 AM

That's my situation as well. I'm using the EBC in STEP format because the upgrade to Pradis costs $60 (plus another $60 for shipping to France!). Now I see that the Logos standard price is over $460. Even the sale price ($130) is more expensive than the Pradis price of $125.

I do have the Pradis Greek/Hebrew collection, and those books aren't even mentioned in the Logos package.

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2009 4:43 AM

Derek:

Personally, I think Zondervan is too concerned with making money, vs. trying to get these resources out into the hands of the people that could really use them. 

Zondervan is owned by HarperCollins, which is owned by News Corporation, which in turn is mostly owned by Rupert Murdoch. So I'm pretty sure that it's all about the money.

 

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 100
Anthony Grubb | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2009 6:28 AM

Yeah, I think they've been getting little hints along the way that everyone suffers from a format war.  I signed on to the Pradis thru a few strange twists, and have recently started getting into Libronix...  I have their Scholar's library and EBC.  Pradis had a nice system of panes and tabs, but my Expositor's Bible Commentary 5.1 never worked properly--the footnotes had to be scrolled to at the end, and had worked far better in my earlier STEP compatible Zondervan collection...so you were wise to hold out.

Posts 100
Anthony Grubb | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2009 6:31 AM

I have the Pradis 5.1...running on the 6.0 engine....the footnotes do not pull up in the dependent books-footnotes...have to be scrolled to at the end, or else run a separate instance of EBC to view them...you didn't miss much.  I don't know much about LOGOS's pricing vs. their pre-pub.  Do they normally hold to such inflated prices $460?  I think you can get the hardbound cheaper!

Posts 100
Anthony Grubb | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2009 6:39 AM

Scott,

I had the STEP compatible EBC and the Pradis 5.1 EBC, and because the footnotes were set up improperly on Pradis, to this day I use the earlier Zondervan Reference Software/STEP compatible version much more.

 Like you, I look forward to a new incarnation of this and all Zondervan's software they wish to publish.

Posts 100
Anthony Grubb | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2009 7:05 AM

Group: Sorry these are all coming up together in a very redundant fashion....I thought they would post next to the discussions for which I hit the "reply" button.

I've been using a small Libronix library for a month or so, (Nelson's Deluxe eBible-which I planned as a precursor to a LOGOS package), and am starting to get a glimpse of LOGOS, even with no real original language features, and see how powerful it is, and how Zondervan's move to the Libronix DLS is long overdue...But I would like to say this about Pradis...I did like a few features of that engine and know Libronix is capable of incorporating changes...I read the History Page of this website...would like to see LOGOS recursively benefit from Pradis's retirement by acquiring rights to these features from Zondervan...

First off was Pradis's system of Panes and Tabs so that many open books could be packed on the interface without ever losing one in the background.  The customized colors for the seperate panes was also refreshing.  When the main window was minimized or resized, the panes responded flawlessly by respectively restoring to their previous sizes, or resizing proportionally.

On Libronix 3.0f, even when carefully cascading open works, there is much wasted space, and switching between tightly-packed works can be tedious.  Also, once the main window is minimized, all the books that were so carefully arranged are cookie-cutter resized when the main window is restored or resized. 

Secondly, when it worked properly (the EBC 5.1 notwithstanding), the "open dependent books"-right and -below was nice for things like NIV cross reference (right) and textual footnotes (below) to open in the same window as the associated text.

Would love to hear that Libronix is considering salvaging the "redeeming features" of this now doomed format,  I think the entire community would benefit from it.

Posts 3917
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2009 7:12 AM

development costs are more for Logos, I would assume.

I too liked the Pradis tab system, as well as the ability to customize background colors and fonts.


But aside from the content itself, I have little good to say about my Pradis/Zondervan experience.  There was a nice guy named Alane (I think) working in tech, and another girl that was helpful, but most of the time I wondered if there was only one guy working for them in support AND development.  software had multiple bugs, installation was frequently a hassle experience, support often didn't follow up to my requests, the website was woefully out of date (content, etc) and very clunky to get around . . . I cringed every time I went there. 

Now as far as the types of books Z offers: fantastic!  But good riddance Pradis. Totally pumped about the Libronix format they are going to.

 

 

 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 3917
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2009 7:28 AM

Anthony Grubb:
Would love to hear that Libronix is considering salvaging the "redeeming features" of this now doomed format,  I think the entire community would benefit from it.

 

how easy that would be to "salvage" them is something I don't know.  They would probably have to build the respective capability from scratch. But I like the idea.  You have described in greater detail what I DID like about Pradis.  I have suggested some of those things in the past (about 3 years ago).  At that time the response from higher up was "thank you for your suggestion" but I could tell that colored panes et al didn't seem worthy of all the work.  Probably the difference between how an engineer looks at something vs. someone who is more artistically inclined.  What I liked about colored panes besides the visual pleasure was that I could associate certain works with certain background colors which allowed my eye and brain to travel to them more quickly.  (I will say that Pradis 6 seemed to mess that up somehow.  It does not work as well or consistently as it did at first, regarding pane color)

What i don't like about Logos (and there is a MOUNTAIN of stuff that I DO like and love!) is what you described regarding the panes.  Even though you can pull down the "window" tab, and search for a pane, that is clunky and frequently I find windows hiding behind other windows.  The tabbing system at the bottom is a good start, but even it lets things fall through the cracks (unlike the Windows operation system tabs themselves, which groups and shows all open windows regardless of what size, minimized or restored).  I also found that the "table of contents" space would resize itself and NOT stay at the same 'width" as I had left it--even if the window itself had not been resized.  Although a resizing of the window should make no difference--if I have the toc open at a 1" width, it should stay that way..

Not hyper critical.  just observations.  :)  I love Logos.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 100
Anthony Grubb | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2009 7:35 AM

Todd Phillips:

I'm not sure there is a file format war.  Nobody is trying to create a cross-platform standard anymore.  Publishers just want a delivery platform that has a good audience.  Pradis was never in the game since it existed solely to publish Zondervan works.  All other publishers went to Logos or WordSearch or Bibleworks according to their goals (at least for Windows). My impression is that each of those products has a different target market (both for users and publishers), and they will continue to serve those markets.

 

As to whether or not there was a format war, and whether or not Zondervan had attempted to provide a cross-platform, I can provide some insight here from an email I got about 3-4 years ago from one of the Zondervan VP's.  Pradis wasn't considered proprietary by Zondervan (although LOGOS openly uses that verbage here, and perhaps Zondervan has finally conceded that it was), they did try to license it to other publishers, just as Libronix is licensed out. He sent me a link to another publisher that was using Pradis, when I looked at it I recall it was something related to computer sciences--apparently they were pleased with Pradis' compression algorithms and decided to give it a whirl.  Zondervan was unhappy with some of the developments when they had earlier released titles in a STEP compatible format-I'm not sure if piracy was the issue, or having their hands tied as format development flagged...seems like these both were mentioned, I'm sure the latter was...but we could all speculate they also wanted to solve the problem in a way where everyone would latch onto their format, and I think they did reason that to reduce the lost revenue from piracy, it would be helpful if consumers were paying for some portion of a Zondervan library (like Pradis).  In any case, Zondervan's continued insistence on Pradis, for all its strengths and weaknesses, had the same result as any format war would: customers who dared to invest are now left with limited support and must investigate their investment's potential (are there any deals or rebates, etc.), those who held out were not able to use the products in their Libronix libraries.  I think whatever interpretations we put on the past, I see a lot of relief that the promise of greater compatibility will benefit everyone, though there were a few Pradis features I know I'll miss if Libronix doesn't quickly pick them up.

Posts 100
Anthony Grubb | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2009 8:06 AM

Daniel DeVilder:

You have described in greater detail what I DID like about Pradis.  I have suggested some of those things in the past (about 3 years ago).  At that time the response from higher up was "thank you for your suggestion" but I could tell that colored panes et al didn't seem worthy of all the work.  Probably the difference between how an engineer looks at something vs. someone who is more artistically inclined.  What I liked about colored panes besides the visual pleasure was that I could associate certain works with certain background colors which allowed my eye and brain to travel to them more quickly.  (I will say that Pradis 6 seemed to mess that up somehow.  It does not work as well or consistently as it did at first, regarding pane color)

...

Not hyper critical.  just observations.  :)  I love Logos.

I have to be careful agreeing with someone who has just agreed with me, we may get caught making "no effort to obtain the praise that comes from God" (Jn 5:44), or else leaving the rest of the forum disenfranchised.  Yes, graphic orientation is a big key, that is why Windows grabbed mainstream computer users in a way that DOS never did!  That is why grocery stores research how we perceive complex visual fields, and how they decide where and how to arrange products.  Magazine layouts and advertizements are also subjected to these treatments.  Pradis 6.0 did make it harder to work with pane color, and every color under the rainbow was never necessary in any case...but a tasteful touch of gray for the biblical text pane, a little beige over there for the dictionaires, some very light emerald for the original language helps, etc. was relaxing for the eyes when done properly.   Like you say, there is lots to love about LOGOS, and not worth having personal issues over, but wouldn't it be nice...on the history page Bill talks about the times he has personally said "thanks for the suggestion," and I know with thousands of dollars going into salaries for each little development scheme, not every customer whim can be worthy of the investment of time and development...but as much as I like some of the things we search around for in the menus on Libronix (like harmonies, parallel passage views, etc.), I would appreciate so much more an updated user interface!

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2009 8:24 AM

Anthony Grubb:
I know with thousands of dollars going into salaries for each little development scheme, not every customer whim can be worthy of the investment of time and development...

 

right on, and that is where we as customers often fail: it is easy to be the critic, but we need to temper our anger a bit when we don't know the behind the scenes issues.  That is the case often, whether it is the anger toward the waitress for late food (her fault?  cooks fault?  food delivery? etc) or anger toward the preacher's sermon (always funny how the SAME sermon can be both "too biblical" and too "fluffy", too boring and yet "very inspired.")

But don't give them excuses to not offer the "rainbow".  Doggonit, I LIKE the rainbow!  :)

3.0 was a HUGE upgrade over 2.1.  I can only hope and imagine 4.0 (due out sometime in 2030 . . . .) will be even better.  But I do agree with you that there are some features I would leave off in favor of a bit more visual appeal (like the biblical persons . . . maybe I just haven't figured out how to apply it well.  there are a few others, too, that seem to have a good idea, but I really don't use them enough)

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2009 9:43 AM

KevinStock:
Now I see that the Logos standard price is over $460
This is not the LOGOS pricing, it is Zondervan's pricing.  They are setting their own prices.

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2009 9:47 AM

Anthony Grubb:
I don't know much about LOGOS's pricing vs. their pre-pub.  Do they normally hold to such inflated prices $460? 
No, this is not the normal way pre-pub offers look.  Zondervan is still setting their own prices.  My guess is that it was a condition of their willingness to make their stuff available on Logos format.  They wanted to keep control of as much as possible and that included price.

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

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