Logos Staff: A Story to Give you something to think about

Page 4 of 11 (212 items) « First ... < Previous 2 3 4 5 6 Next > ... Last »
This post has 211 Replies | 10 Followers

Posts 26123
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 23 2018 10:01 AM

Dan Starcevich:
on-line training with the produc

I assume you are aware of their training videos? Ask for videos in areas you think are lacking - there's a bunch of people who might have time to catch their breath it we don't keep requests coming.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 46
Dan Starcevich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 23 2018 10:10 AM

I am.  they are definitely a step in the right direction. I think Faithlife needs to embrace this more and more. Particularly as the product grows in sophistication.

I spent thirty years developing software and systems and the key to a successful delivery and adoption was clear, comprehensive, task focused user training.  If they want the market to expand they need to make it as easy as possible for users to get their money's worth out of the investment.

Posts 622
Michael S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 23 2018 11:59 AM

Cynthia in Florida:

So in my mind, this isn’t about FL offering MORE training.  It’s about FL making the software more intuitive

YES, YES, and YES!

Posts 118
Scot Wright | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 23 2018 12:18 PM

This has been a needed discussion and I'm so thankful for all the wonderful insightful replies. I've been with Logos since the Oak Harbor days and have always marveled on how useful and powerful the Logos program is. Yet as the Logos program got more complicated and comprehensive I knew I wasn't using the program to it's full potential. Since there was limited documentation at the time for all the features, I felt I needed to attend a few Logos Camps to try to learn how to use the software I had owned for years. I wasn't disappointed but I did come away from those seminars saying to myself, "There was no way I could have found out how to use this program on my own." Even today I hardly do any searches because I just don't have the time to figure it all out. Fortunately I know my library well enough that I can get what I need but I do know I might be missing a few gems. The same with collections, I really couldn't figure out the code so I just grouped the resources manually according to my system. I know I'm missing many resources but I don't know how to find the rest.

I recommend Logos all the time and I'm hopeful that this tremendous tool can truly be discovered for the powerful ministry tool it is. A definite help with the learning curve would encourage even longtime users!  

Posts 2465
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 23 2018 12:24 PM

Scot Wright:

 Even today I hardly do any searches because I just don't have the time to figure it all out. Fortunately I know my library well enough that I can get what I need but I do know I might be missing a few gems. The same with collections, I really couldn't figure out the code so I just grouped the resources manually according to my system.

Once again I'd like to express my thanks to another loyal user for speaking what's on my mind.

Posts 775
JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 23 2018 12:25 PM

MJ. Smith:
The difference in our usage is exactly what makes Faithlife's job hellacious.

Bingo. 

One-size-fits-all works for stretch clothing, but not so well for software trying to satisfy queries of such a huge and multi-faceted matrix of data to users of varying usage wants/needs.  At one end of the usage spectrum are those who are trying to get just a sip from the high pressure gusher that is Logos, and at the other end are those who can't get enough.  What a challenge! 

I have always thought that Logos should incorporate more of a modular design that begins with the simplest of UIs and tools (i.e., keep all of the whiz-bang, advanced features out of sight).  Then, if needed or wanted, more modules/tools of increasing complexity could be enabled by the user.  Let the software "grow" to a level and at a pace as defined by the user.

Of course, I am not a developer and maybe what I envision is beyond economic and/or software reality.

Money <-- just my two cents

How blessed is the one whom Thou dost choose, and bring near to Thee(Psa 65:4a)

Posts 17877
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 23 2018 1:35 PM

Dan Starcevich:
Logos does themselves a disservice by not providing a comprehensive training manual or on-line training with the product.

Curious about your opinion of => https://www.logos.com/bible-study-training that uses free Mobile Ed course => LT271: Study the Bible with Logos: Jonah 1

What on-line training content should be added to => https://www.logos.com/logos-pro ?

How could Help resource => https://ref.ly/logosres/logos4help?hw=Searching be helpfully improved ? e.g. include dataset resource documentation links. Update "How To" Question "How do I find my Logos Mac files in the Mavericks and Yosemite operating systems?" to "How do I find my Logos files using the Mac operating systems?" (Older Mavericks and Yosemite versions of OS X are no longer supported)

What additional "How To" questions would be appreciated ? (e.g. some tips from power users: MJ, Mark, Dave, ...)

Challenge for comprehensive training is including creative ways of using Logos/Verbum.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 2298
Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 23 2018 3:03 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
How could Help resource => https://ref.ly/logosres/logos4help?hw=Searching be helpfully improved ?

One suggestion. It would be instructive if the Help Resource would hyperlink to a ready-made example setup within Logos. This would be especially helpful for some of the more advanced searches.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

Posts 3649
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 24 2018 3:09 AM

Although I did push at some point for more documentation -- and indeed good documentation should always be a given -- I think the fundamental issue is not there. I don't think I am a newbie but my primary problem is that Logos is simply not easy to use. I use Logos every single day and I use it a lot. But there are stages in my research when I tend to use certain functionalities rather than others. I find that when I get back to doing a complex something I knew how to do before, I have forgotten the details that differentiate between working and not working. Sure, I can go and find out again whether in documentation or on the forum, but that's time-consuming and frustrating.

There have been talks for quite a while of a graphical build your search UI that would take the arcane out of complex searches. A number of tools have come out that go in that direction (concordance, browser, etc). However, these are more tools scattered all over the place, not a change in the way the software as a whole functions. There are still times when I go "Wait, is that the concordance or Bible browser I should use here? What's the difference already?"

So, the point I am making is that more and more and more in some ways adds to the problem. Documentation itself is scattered and finding what you need is hit and miss (help file, forums, wiki). I would compare using Logos to using Linux as opposed to the easier to get to what you want Operating Systems. I understand that Logos is complex and advanced. Invest in making the complex and advanced more accessible. Adding more of the same will not solve the problem. Stop adding and focus instead on improving what's there.

I have also advocated functionality similar to "tell me what you want to do" in Microsoft Office. Another type is the Siri/OK Google/Cortana approach (although I and I assume others would want text rather voice-based searches). I have not had much response to this suggestion. An example would be "I want to search for wisdom and folly in Wisdom of Solomon". Options presented could be: do you want to search for 'wisdom AND folly,' 'wisdom OR folly' or the phrase "wisdom and folly"? Pick, click, boom! 

Now of course this would mean in the first instance that Logos would fix its crawling auto-populating functionality. A slow unresponsive interactive help would not be good. 

Posts 809
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 24 2018 4:29 AM

Francis:

Although I did push at some point for more documentation -- and indeed good documentation should always be a given -- I think the fundamental issue is not there. I don't think I am a newbie but my primary problem is that Logos is simply not easy to use. I use Logos every single day and I use it a lot. But there are stages in my research when I tend to use certain functionalities rather than others. I find that when I get back to doing a complex something I knew how to do before, I have forgotten the details that differentiate between working and not working. Sure, I can go and find out again whether in documentation or on the forum, but that's time-consuming and frustrating.

There have been talks for quite a while of a graphical build your search UI that would take the arcane out of complex searches. A number of tools have come out that go in that direction (concordance, browser, etc). However, these are more tools scattered all over the place, not a change in the way the software as a whole functions. There are still times when I go "Wait, is that the concordance or Bible browser I should use here? What's the difference already?"

So, the point I am making is that more and more and more in some ways adds to the problem. Documentation itself is scattered and finding what you need is hit and miss (help file, forums, wiki). I would compare using Logos to using Linux as opposed to the easier to get to what you want Operating Systems. I understand that Logos is complex and advanced. Invest in making the complex and advanced more accessible. Adding more of the same will not solve the problem. Stop adding and focus instead on improving what's there.

I have also advocated functionality similar to "tell me what you want to do" in Microsoft Office. Another type is the Siri/OK Google/Cortana approach (although I and I assume others would want text rather voice-based searches). I have not had much response to this suggestion. An example would be "I want to search for wisdom and folly in Wisdom of Solomon". Options presented could be: do you want to search for 'wisdom AND folly,' 'wisdom OR folly' or the phrase "wisdom and folly"? Pick, click, boom! 

Now of course this would mean in the first instance that Logos would fix its crawling auto-populating functionality. A slow unresponsive interactive help would not be good. 

Francis:  I swear, I could have written this entire post.  EVERYTHING you said applies to me.  I do figure out (usually by asking on here or searching wiki or watching a video) how to do complex things with Logos, think how awesome it is, screen shot it, and tuck it away in a help file.  But then I come back to it later and forget, because I don’t use it that often, so I have to start all over again.  I could go on each point above and give examples of how this applies to me, but I’m thinking that if you use Logos regularly and I use Logos regularly and we both have the same experience, then there are plenty of those who are users (but not “power users” who have understanding of how operations work “under the hood”) who, like us, are in the same boat. 

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 2298
Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 24 2018 5:04 AM

Francis:
There have been talks for quite a while of a graphical build your search UI

I for one support this idea wholeheartedly. But, this too I think misses the point made by Cynthia. If I understand her correctly what she is asking for is an entirely different approach to the one Logos currently uses. One accessible to the average Bible student with no prior experience with the software. This to me argues for a two-tier approach to the software. 

Francis:
Although I did push at some point for more documentation -- and indeed good documentation should always be a given -- I think the fundamental issue is not there. I don't think I am a newbie but my primary problem is that Logos is simply not easy to use. I find that when I get back to doing a complex something I knew how to do before, I have forgotten the details that differentiate between working and not working. Sure, I can go and find out again whether in documentation or on the forum, but that's time-consuming and frustrating.

Your experience is probably common and certainly, I agree that Search is frustratingly difficult to recall and reproduce outcomes. Better documentation and approaches that streamline the building of Advanced Searches like the Context Menu. Better and more accessible documentation would improve the experience here. I don't know maybe what I'm saying is that I want a better system for the recording complex Searches. And this could be found in a better and more thorough documentation.

In a way, I believe we are being a little fickle when we ask for more powerful Searches but, we want a simple approach to get this information. The Morph Query is graphical but requires some knowledge to use effectively. No matter what approach is adopted there will be a learning curve.

Francis:
Now of course this would mean in the first instance that Logos would fix its crawling auto-populating functionality. A slow unresponsive interactive help would not be good. 

In the Make an L8 Wishlist thread I advocate early for a speeded-up Logos. I can do no less here. Agree, agree, agree.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

Posts 21717
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 24 2018 5:11 AM

Cynthia in Florida:
 But then I come back to it later and forget, because I don’t use it that often, so I have to start all over again.

I don't want to divert attention away from the discussion or to suggest this is a solution to it!

But I just wanted to flag that you can store a Search as a Favorite - simply drag the Search tab to a Favorites folder. That way they are accessible again within the software if you want to reuse them or use them as a basis for a similar search.

Posts 118
Scot Wright | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 24 2018 12:22 PM

Graham Criddle:

Cynthia in Florida:
 But then I come back to it later and forget, because I don’t use it that often, so I have to start all over again.

I don't want to divert attention away from the discussion or to suggest this is a solution to it!

But I just wanted to flag that you can store a Search as a Favorite - simply drag the Search tab to a Favorites folder. That way they are accessible again within the software if you want to reuse them or use them as a basis for a similar search.

Like Graham I don't want to derail the good discussion but Graham's post highlighted an aspect that is the symptom of the larger problem. I've been using Logos for over twenty years and I would never have known I could save a search like that. Where do you find these gems? I would have to say that most of the operations that I have learned about Logos have come from generous power users like Graham than any where else.

Posts 809
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 24 2018 1:11 PM

Graham Criddle:

Cynthia in Florida:
 But then I come back to it later and forget, because I don’t use it that often, so I have to start all over again.

I don't want to divert attention away from the discussion or to suggest this is a solution to it!

But I just wanted to flag that you can store a Search as a Favorite - simply drag the Search tab to a Favorites folder. That way they are accessible again within the software if you want to reuse them or use them as a basis for a similar search.

Graham!  Thanks very much for this.  I didn't know this...I'm sure I learned it somewhere in training but... Hmm

It's not diverting attention.  I think it's showing what would be so beneficial to the program.  How could I ever have known that?  Firstly, how could I have known HOW to do it the first time...I couldn't.  I had to go and hunt around to figure it out.  Then, how could I have known I could store the search?  Situations such as this are examples of where the program needs to be more intuitive. 

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 809
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 24 2018 1:12 PM

Scot Wright:

Graham Criddle:

Cynthia in Florida:
 But then I come back to it later and forget, because I don’t use it that often, so I have to start all over again.

I don't want to divert attention away from the discussion or to suggest this is a solution to it!

But I just wanted to flag that you can store a Search as a Favorite - simply drag the Search tab to a Favorites folder. That way they are accessible again within the software if you want to reuse them or use them as a basis for a similar search.

Like Graham I don't want to derail the good discussion but Graham's post highlighted an aspect that is the symptom of the larger problem. I've been using Logos for over twenty years and I would never have known I could save a search like that. Where do you find these gems? I would have to say that most of the operations that I have learned about Logos have come from generous power users like Graham than any where else.

I responded above before I even read your post.  Great minds think alike.  Or, maybe it's simple minds think alike! LOL

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 21717
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 24 2018 1:12 PM

Scot Wright:
I would never have known I could save a search like that. Where do you find these gems?

The help file entry on Favorites has:

"Save a favorite article, passage, search result, person, place, or thing, document, etc. so you can find them again easily"

and then provides some guidance on how to do this.

But - and this goes back to Cynthia's point about intuitiveness  - unless you knew it could do that, and were wanting to remind yourself how, it is unlikely that you would look for it there!

How much would having a "Save search string to Favorites" option in the search panel icon help with this - with this opening the Favorites menu allowing you to specify which folder to put it in?

Posts 960
JohnB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 24 2018 1:28 PM

Francis:
I find that when I get back to doing a complex something I knew how to do before, I have forgotten the details that differentiate between working and not working.

You mean it is not just me!!  That is one reason why we need a superb help file system with fuzzy search leading to short help/teaching nuggets. However good the training is or even how intuitive Logos becomes, some of us (OK many of us) will still have a senior moment. and need access to a quick reminder.

Posts 781
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 24 2018 1:56 PM

JohnB:
will still have a senior moment. and need access to a quick reminder.

I would call it a FL moment, as the rig is not intuitive.

Posts 809
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 24 2018 2:54 PM

Graham Criddle:

But - and this goes back to Cynthia's point about intuitiveness  - unless you knew it could do that, and were wanting to remind yourself how, it is unlikely that you would look for it there!

How much would having a "Save search string to Favorites" option in the search panel icon help with this - with this opening the Favorites menu allowing you to specify which folder to put it in?

Graham:  This genuinely a question.  Would that be same as me saying that when something requires a little more explaining, there should be a hotkey?"  I think that's what I'm meaning, but in reading this thread, I see that there are many technical phrases that I don't know what they mean, or that I might be using erroneously.

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 24712
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 24 2018 5:45 PM

Cynthia in Florida:
Would that be same as me saying that when something requires a little more explaining, there should be a hotkey?"

No - assuming you mean that there should be a single keyboard key as a shortcut. Graham means there should be an option in the Search panel menu (when you click on the Search icon).

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Page 4 of 11 (212 items) « First ... < Previous 2 3 4 5 6 Next > ... Last » | RSS