Messianic Jews Question

Page 2 of 3 (49 items) < Previous 1 2 3 Next >
This post has 48 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 76
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 23 2018 12:21 PM

DAL:

One last question: will this package contribute anything to what I’m trying to study?

https://www.logos.com/product/128297/logos-7-jewish-studies-library-expansion-xl

If not, I’ll just stick to the two highly recommended books that stood out from this thread

👍😁👌

DAL

This is a great bundle, I own it and use resources in it frequently. That said, it is not a Messianic Jewish bundle, it is from traditional Jewish authors who do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. So it depends what your goal is: If you're wanting to learn more about Messianic Judaism, it won't help you. Instead, I would recommend (besides what I've already recommended) the following:

Messianic Judaism: A Modern Movement With an Ancient Past: (A Revision of Messianic Jewish Manifesto) (Logos):

https://www.logos.com/product/7259/messianic-judaism-a-modern-movement-with-an-ancient-past

Voices of Messianic Judaism: Confronting Critical Issues Facing a Maturing Movement (Logos):

https://www.logos.com/product/7252/voices-of-messianic-judaism-confronting-critical-issues-facing-a-maturing-movement

The Enduring Paradox: Exploratory Essays in Messianic Judaism (Logos):

https://www.logos.com/product/7256/the-enduring-paradox-exploratory-essays-in-messianic-judaism

Postmissionary Messianic Judaism: Redefining Christian Engagement with the Jewish People (Amazon):

https://www.amazon.com/Postmissionary-Messianic-Judaism-Redefining-Engagement/dp/1587431521/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1537729594&sr=8-1&keywords=postmissionary+messianic+judaism

Jewish Roots: Understanding Your Jewish Faith (Revised Edition) (Amazon):

https://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Roots-Understanding-Faith-Revised-ebook/dp/B00B1U8JYC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1537729630&sr=8-1&keywords=jewish+roots+juster

Mapping Messianic Jewish Theology: A Constructive Approach (Studies in Messianic Jewish Theology) (Amazon):

https://www.amazon.com/Mapping-Messianic-Jewish-Theology-Constructive/dp/1842276441/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1537729738&sr=8-1&keywords=mapping+messianic+jewish+theology

These titles cover the major players and range of views within modern Messianic Judaism. I just finished the last one and wrote a paper on it for a class in Messianic Jewish Theology. It is fairly recent (2009) and surveys the diverse positions of the major leaders within Messianic Judaism. It is a published dissertation and reads as such ;)

Hope this helps!

Posts 6407
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 23 2018 2:06 PM

What is the Talmud good for (Babylonian and Jerusalem)? And also Jewish Laws? They seem to be the most expensive and the bigger savings within the package.

DAL

Posts 232
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 23 2018 3:25 PM

DAL:

What is the Talmud good for (Babylonian and Jerusalem)? 

DAL

Talmud is like a email discussion of rabbinical authorities or a string of dicta from a law journal.  It's a record of rabbinical discussions.

Useful to glean what people were thinking about various topics and passages in their day.  

Like all discussions, you pick out what you will and use it to help make whatever point you want to make.  

Critical thinking necessary.

No different than reading what David Jeremiah or D A Carson says about something.  You still have to weigh it up and decide how to apply it, or not.  

DAL:

And also Jewish Laws? 

DAL

To have a sensible discussion about this we need to define Jewish law.  There is the written law of the Pentateuch.  Then there are the Oral Laws which were then captured in the Talmud and other rulings since then.  

I think of the system as analogous to the English Common Law system which is what most US and British Commonwealth countries use.  There are statutes (equivalent to the Pentateuch) and the Common Law (which is the principals and precedents set by Judges as they practically implement the statutes).  But even in the ECL system, the Statutes always take precedence over the Common Law.  

Same thing in a way.  Often churches have constitutions and bylaws.  They are analogous to the Talmud.  What weight do they have?  Some are good and some are bad.  Setting out a process for selecting elders sounds good to me.  But back in the 70s some Pentecostal churches barred wearing jeans to a Sunday worship service.  Today, many would think that's ridiculous.  Other churches still expect formal attire.  

Seems to me Jesus took Jewish Oral laws on their merit and if he found fault, was willing to debate them.  But to say they have no authority at all we would be going too far.  And to say that the Rabbis and other leaders had no authority to make these laws would also go beyond what Jesus did.  He accepted that they had the authority to set such rules.  But if you notice, he never argues with them about the written law i.e. the Pentateuch. 

HTH

Posts 6407
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 23 2018 3:58 PM

As interesting as these Resources seem, I think I’ll stick to the two books recommended by Matthew.  They are a good starting point for what I need.

Great discussion! Thanks everyone! 👍😁👌

DAL

Posts 32
Adam | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 23 2018 11:03 PM

Matthew:
JPS resources are absolutely legit, some of the best Jewish scholarship available. I think I own every JPS resource available in Logos. My point was that they translate Dt 6:4 as "alone" rather than "one" in spite of the fact that it can be used to bolster the position of those (like us) who hold to a complex monotheism even though they do not, because they are not Yeshua-followers (i.e. believe in Jesus). I can only assume they translated it that way because they believe that "alone" is more accurate than "one," and I respect that integrity.

Thanks very much for the clarification Matthew. I have found their resources valuable in my study & so that's why your post stood out but it looks like I misinterpreted what you were saying originally

Posts 440
Liam & Abi Maguire | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 24 2018 2:28 AM

Hey DAL, 

based on my own (limited) understanding of Messianic Judaism, my (hobbyists) interest in early Christianity, and the wonderful responses on this forum, I'd say that your friend has fallen in with a group that practices Ebionitism (all be it in a more modern construction). 

McGrath in Heresy (105, 2009) is keen to point out that "frustratingly little is known about this movement"but here are some quotes on what is known about the core of their teachings -> the rejection of Jesus as divine and the rejection of Paul letters: 

DLNTD (1997), "The Ebionites rejected the Pauline epistles and regarded Jesus as the natural son of Joseph and Mary who was elected Son of God at his baptism."

ECH (2002),  "In many ways, Ebionitism resembled the false teaching with which Paul did battle in the book of Galatians. Ebionites taught that Jesus was the prophetic successor to Moses—not the eternal second person of the Trinity. Furthermore, the Ebionites were legalists who viewed Jesus as an exalted man who perfectly kept the law."

Distinct from Arianism (an "Alexandrian Hellenistic philosophy"), McGrath (2009) explains that:

"Ebionitism chose to situate Jesus of Nazareth within the context of Judaism and to interpret his importance using its categories. Jesus was thus to be understood as analogous to the great prophets of Israel - human beings who were in some way given special insight or wisdom through the Holy Spirit. The suggestion that Jesus of Nazareth was himself divine does not really enter into consideration, given the Jewish context from within which Ebionitism arose" (pg. 109)

Iraneaus (CE 130-202) "Those who are called Ebionites agree that the world was made by God, but their opinions with respect to the Lord are similar to those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law. As to the prophetical writings, they endeavour to expound them in a somewhat singular manner: they practice circumcision, persevere in the observance of those customs which are enjoined by the law, and are so Judaic in their style of life, that they even adore Jerusalem as if it were the house of God."

Also Iraneaus... "Vain also are the Ebionites, who do not receive by faith into their soul the union of God and man, but who remain in the old leaven of [the natural] birth, and who do not choose to understand that the Holy Ghost came upon Mary, and the power of the Most High did overshadow her:3 wherefore also what was generated is a holy thing, and the Son of the Most High God the Father of all, who effected the incarnation of this being, and showed forth a new [kind of] generation; that as by the former generation we inherited death, so by this new generation we might inherit life"

Origen (CE 184-253), "For there are certain heretical sects which do not receive the Epistles of the Apostle Paul, as the two sects of Ebionites, and those who are termed Encratites."

There is more to be found in Irenaeus' Against Heresies if you own it or simply run a search for Ebionite OR Ebionitism. Or similarly, you can do the same by searching for 'Ebion OR Ebionite OR Ebionitism' in "Series:Early Church Fathers" or similar. There is also a section on the Ebionites in CH351 History of Heresies which you can borrow if you have an FLC Essentials (or above) subscription. 

You probably noticed a bit of disagreement between the scholars quoted above, but I'll leave you to sort the fish yourself if that's ok.

As to how to approach your friend, counter the new heresy with the old orthodoxy as someone once said to me. Hope the above is helpful as 'another penny in the pot' so to speak. 

Blessings, Liam

Check out my blog 'For Fathers'

Posts 2250
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 25 2018 12:52 AM

I've been a believer for about 30 years and Messianic for about the last decade. My parents were Jewish, but I wasn't raised Jewish. I became a believer as an adult. Because I attend a Messianic congregation, I have had several encounters with Hebrew Roots theology. FWIW the same sort of things that Paul encountered in the first century is evident in the Hebrew roots movement. Don't equate some of the wacky stuff with Messianic Jews. Definitely not the same!

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 6407
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 25 2018 2:49 AM

mab:

I've been a believer for about 30 years and Messianic for about the last decade. My parents were Jewish, but I wasn't raised Jewish. I became a believer as an adult. Because I attend a Messianic congregation, I have had several encounters with Hebrew Roots theology. FWIW the same sort of things that Paul encountered in the first century is evident in the Hebrew roots movement. Don't equate some of the wacky stuff with Messianic Jews. Definitely not the same!

I started reading Introduction to Messianic Judaism.  It’s proving to be quite an interesting read.  I’m not too sure about the story of the cop hearing a voice saying “talk to the jew about Jesus” and when the Jew went looking for a church after the cop talked to him the pastor turned him down and sent him to a Jewish synagogue so he wouldn’t lose his Jewish identity.  Kind of a mixed charismatic experience type of thing, but interesting nonetheless.

After this, I’ll slowly start adding more MJ’s resources to learn more.  I’m still tempted to get at least the Jewish Large topical bundle, but we’ll see.

DAL

Posts 232
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 25 2018 3:32 AM

Matthew:

I do not know of any books written that specifically address Hebrew Roots or the Black Israelite movement. There's a great book written by Boaz Michael from First Fruits of Zion that addresses the Lost Tribes doctrine called Twelve Gates: Where Do the Nations Enter? Here is a link:

https://ffoz.com/twelve-gates-book.html

As far as understanding Paul and his teaching concerning Judaizers, legalism, and especially the letters to the Romans and the Galatians, I can't recommend highly enough the work of Jewish scholar Mark Nanos. I would start with the book Paul Within Judaism: Restoring the First-Century Context to the Apostle which is available in Logos:

https://www.logos.com/product/52325/paul-within-judaism-restoring-the-first-century-context-to-the-apostle

I also recommend his books The Irony of Galatians: Paul's Letter in First-Century Context (Amazon):

https://www.amazon.com/Irony-Galatians-Letter-First-Century-Context/dp/0800632141/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1537566760&sr=8-7&keywords=mark+nanos

and The Mystery of Romans: The Jewish Context of Paul's Letters (Amazon):

https://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Romans-Jewish-Context-Letters-ebook/dp/B004QF0P2S/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1537566760&sr=8-5&keywords=mark+nanos

in addition to his most recent series on reading Paul within Judaism. 

Thumbs up!

Posts 6407
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 25 2018 8:12 AM

Genghis, what I meant by Jewish Law is this resource: https://www.logos.com/product/3049/jewish-law

What are your thoughts on it?

DAL

Posts 10178
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 25 2018 8:58 AM

DAL:

Genghis, what I meant by Jewish Law is this resource: https://www.logos.com/product/3049/jewish-law

What are your thoughts on it?

DAL

I'm not Genghis. But the volumes are largely modern, originally in hebrew, and map out how you move from religion to daily law, in multiple perspectives ... from the OT, shifts from the Talmud, as well as geographically (treatments among various jewish centers).  I got it primarlily for vol 3, as also the various mishnah/talmud 'side' volumes. As much as folks want to nail down jewish writings a la Christian ones (categories), a broader knowlegability is needed. But I can't imagine the package on sale relative to messianic.


Posts 6407
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 25 2018 9:57 AM

Denise:

DAL:

Genghis, what I meant by Jewish Law is this resource: https://www.logos.com/product/3049/jewish-law

What are your thoughts on it?

DAL

I'm not Genghis. But the volumes are largely modern, originally in hebrew, and map out how you move from religion to daily law, in multiple perspectives ... from the OT, shifts from the Talmud, as well as geographically (treatments among various jewish centers).  I got it primarlily for vol 3, as also the various mishnah/talmud 'side' volumes. As much as folks want to nail down jewish writings a la Christian ones (categories), a broader knowlegability is needed. But I can't imagine the package on sale relative to messianic.

So they are in Hebrew not English? If that’s the case then I don’t read Hebrew.  Maybe I’ll do Large instead of XL for Talmud alone.

DAL

Posts 3219
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 25 2018 10:20 AM

DAL:
So they are in Hebrew not English?

No, the volumes were originally in Hebrew, as Denise mentioned, but have been translated into English.

Posts 6407
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 25 2018 10:28 AM

PetahChristian:

DAL:
So they are in Hebrew not English?

No, the volumes were originally in Hebrew, as Denise mentioned, but have been translated into English.

phew! Thanks 🙏 

Posts 6407
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 25 2018 10:54 AM

Denise:

DAL:

Genghis, what I meant by Jewish Law is this resource: https://www.logos.com/product/3049/jewish-law

What are your thoughts on it?

DAL

I'm not Genghis. But the volumes are largely modern, originally in hebrew, and map out how you move from religion to daily law, in multiple perspectives ... from the OT, shifts from the Talmud, as well as geographically (treatments among various jewish centers).  I got it primarlily for vol 3, as also the various mishnah/talmud 'side' volumes. As much as folks want to nail down jewish writings a la Christian ones (categories), a broader knowlegability is needed. But I can't imagine the package on sale relative to messianic.

Super thanks, Denise! 👍😁👌 Not Messianic Jewish but good for traditional Jewish Studies as Matthew mentioned. And like you mentioned in another thread, No need for the XL Bundle.

DAL

Posts 408
Ken Shawver | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 25 2018 2:35 PM

Thank you David for such a detailed response. It has provided some very good clarification for some discussions I have had.

Blessings

In Christ,

Ken

Dell Studio 1555; 15.6 True Life LCD; Intel Core 2 Duo T6600 2.20 GHz, 2M Cache, 800 MHz FSB ; 500GB 5400 HDD; 8GB RAM, Win 10, Chrome 70

http://wiki.logos.com/

Posts 6407
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 27 2018 4:35 PM

Ok Matthew and David,

I talked to my friend today and he mentioned he was in a branch of Messianic Judaism called The Netzarim.  Are any of you familiar with that branch? Romans 11:16-21 is the text they use to support their name.

Thanks!

DAL

Posts 232
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 27 2018 6:19 PM

DAL:

Genghis, what I meant by Jewish Law is this resource: https://www.logos.com/product/3049/jewish-law

What are your thoughts on it?

DAL

Looks authoritative.  The idea of dividing Jewish law into "written" law i.e. the Torah and the "Oral" law (which is Common Law, written down) is still a helpful/good way to frame Jewish Law and to help understand its context.  Thus all extra-biblical texts would come under the heading of "Oral Law".  

I hope that helps.  Jesus took the attitude that was common in his day:  Debate the oral/common law rulings if they made it more difficult to follow or even defeats the spirit of the written law.  

HTH

Posts 232
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 27 2018 6:24 PM

DAL:

Ok Matthew and David,

I talked to my friend today and he mentioned he was in a branch of Messianic Judaism called The Netzarim.  Are any of you familiar with that branch? Romans 11:16-21 is the text they use to support their name.

Thanks!

DAL

I found this site:  https://www.therefinersfire.org/who_is_he.htm

However, what is set out there, doesn't agree with everything your friend mentions either.  

HTH

Genghis

Posts 6407
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 28 2018 7:34 AM

Thanks for the link, Genghis! I’ll keep researching this. This Netzarim group seems a little complicated, even though they claim to be Messianic Jews.

DAL

Page 2 of 3 (49 items) < Previous 1 2 3 Next > | RSS