Theology Guide

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Posts 151
Rob Lambert | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 2:26 PM

I am finding the Theology Guide very helpful.  Today I was reading the section on the Church and Israel in the Lexham Survey of Theology. I came upon this by Brian Collins, the author of this section: 

"While the church may have a Great Commission to declare the message of Jesus and the apostles, it does not have a commission to convert Jewish people away from their faith to that of a gentile church."

Guys, I wonder if this is true. From what I know, it isn't.

Is there a way to further dive into this to get a better idea where Brian got this????  Or to contact the author????    Or, am I just plain wrong?

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 2:35 PM

Rob Lambert:

"While the church may have a Great Commission to declare the message of Jesus and the apostles, it does not have a commission to convert Jewish people away from their faith to that of a gentile church."

Guys, I wonder if this is true. From what I know, it isn't.

This forum isn't supposed to be a place to discuss theology. But I guess that what Brian is trying to say is that you don't need to stop being Jewish to start being a Christian. All the earliest Christians were Jews and they would all have said that they retained their Jewish faith even as they stopped offering sacrifices, keeping Sabbath and food laws, and worshipping in the Temple.

Posts 1113
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 4:11 PM

Sean Boisen:
That's a very positive suggestion, Mark. Feel free to join the Faithlife group for Lexham Survey of Theology and make recommendations for resources you'd like to see annotated, or add other suggestions for improvements. You could also post them on this forum thread.

Off the top of my head, as mentioned above, I'd suggest some of the 19th century Wesleyan Arminian theologians you have in Logos such as Miley and Pope. They would be good in comparison to the other theologians you already have. Also, their structures should lend themselves well to this task. Ditto for Orton Wiley.

From the continent, Bavinck should be a top priority. Berkouwer's Studies would be awesome to have in this, but I imagine it would take a lot more work than many others. Pannenberg would also be great.

Again from older theologies, Franics Hall and Joseph Pohl would be good additions.

Useful popular systematics would be Erickson and <gulp> Grudem.

Those would be excellent as a next step. Expanding in those directions should improve the tool's utility for comparative study of theology.

ETA: And Calvin's Institutes! How could I leave off that? How could you, for that matter? It should go in ASAP. Stick out tongue Seriously, though, there's a lot of useful theology out there besides Princeton/Westminster and Dallas. Most of it doesn't bite. Why did you have to do both Hodge and Berkhof before getting to some of these others?

Posts 1113
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 4:14 PM

Kenneth Neighoff:
And if you don't get to those in the Wesleyan-Holiness Camp soon enough, I know how to find the sections I am looking for through search in Logos and having used the print version of the Logos resources, for years before having them in Logos.   Sometimes we just forget how to do things "old school". 

So do I. The same can be said about the resources already in the guide--Berkhof is already my default resource for answers fast. But if I'm paying a couple hundred $ to get this in Logos (my main if not sole reason for buying a feature set), I'd really like for it do more.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 4:23 PM

Mark Barnes:
...you don't need to stop being Jewish to start being a Christian. All the earliest Christians were Jews and they would all have said that they retained their Jewish faith even as they stopped offering sacrifices, keeping Sabbath and food laws, and worshipping in the Temple.

Tongue Tied

Posts 151
Rob Lambert | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 4:30 PM

Thanks Mark...

Now I understand what he was trying to communicate.

Posts 4772
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 4:48 PM

Rob Lambert:
Now I understand what he was trying to communicate.

Really?? That's a trick! I can think of at least half-a-dozen to a dozen issues in that statement that are so mish-mashed and disputable that extricating anything worthwhile seems well-nigh impossible. For starters, there's the fact that Jews might not be Jewish. Let the slidy slope commence...

For the sake of clarity, I see problems with the original quote and Mark's "elucidation".

Posts 1022
Keith Pang | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 4:51 PM

I disagree with Brian Collins. Like others have said that is faulty thinking. 

Shalom, in Christ, Keith. Check out my music www.soundcloud.com/kpang808

Posts 1113
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 4:53 PM

Let's please keep the thread on track discussing the Theology Guide, not forbidden theology topics. Big SmileZip it!AngelWink

Posts 781
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 4:54 PM

Systematic theologies to consider: Ryrie   voigt   frame [systematic theology]   john macpherson   bloesch   berkhof [History of Christian Doctrines]   feinberg   beet

Posts 1113
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 5:05 PM

scooter:

Systematic theologies to consider: Ryrie   voigt   frame [systematic theology]   john macpherson   bloesch   berkhof [History of Christian Doctrines]   feinberg   beet

I strongly second Bloesch. Also, Thomas Oden's ST is excellent for the many links it has to other resources, especially the fathers, that otherwise wouldn't lend themselves to the Guide's structure.

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Keith Pang | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 5:06 PM

I know, just stating. 

Shalom, in Christ, Keith. Check out my music www.soundcloud.com/kpang808

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 5:33 PM

Rob Lambert:

I came upon this by Brian Collins, the author of this section: 

"While the church may have a Great Commission to declare the message of Jesus and the apostles, it does not have a commission to convert Jewish people away from their faith to that of a gentile church."

Guys, I wonder if this is true. From what I know, it isn't.

While we don't want to discuss theology here, I want to question not whether Mark's answer to your question is true, but whether it fits the resource. It seems to me that you inadvertently put the quote outside of context. The longer paragraph reads: 

"In a post-Holocaust world, supersessionism has fallen out of favor. Among nonevangelicals, some have argued that the drive behind anti-Semitism comes from a redemption-focused soteriology that involves continued efforts to convert Jews to Christianity. While the church may have a Great Commission to declare the message of Jesus and the apostles, it does not have a commission to convert Jewish people away from their faith to that of a gentile church.
Among evangelicals, some have argued that...."

Brian Collins, “The Church and Israel,” in Lexham Survey of Theology, ed. Mark Ward et al. (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2018).  (boldface by me)

I understand Brian Collins to summarize a non-evangelical position towards Christian mission of Jews, which goes beyond the argument Mark makes and basically downplays or fully declines the need for conversion to Christ / acceptance of Christ as Messiah, especially in light of the Shoah. This seems to be the majority position among non-evangelical protestants and also non-traditionalist Catholics over here in Germany.

Rob Lambert:
Is there a way to further dive into this to get a better idea where Brian got this????  Or to contact the author???? 

There would be, since there is a tool called "Ask the Author" - unfortunately, as per the tool pane, it is (currently?) "not available for this resource." I don't see an author profile for Brian on Faithlife.com either.

 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 151
Rob Lambert | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 6:28 PM

Thanks All....

I do have a follow up question: Where do Logosians discuss theology????

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Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 6:53 PM

Rob Lambert:

Thanks All....

I do have a follow up question: Where do Logosians discuss theology????

The Faithlife group would be an appropriate place to discuss the contents of articles in the Lexham Survey of Theology: https://faithlife.com/lexham-survey-of-theology/ .

Posts 1605
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 7:13 PM

Sean Boisen:
We currently have more than 300 systematic theologies on offer at logos.com, and there's no automated way to do this

Looking at that list kind of shows how I am not in the main stream of Logos customers. On that first page, I own only 1 of the top 15 systematic theology resources - namely the Battles translation of Calvin's Institutes, although I do also have 2nd ed of Erickson...

Works that I think should be high priority for tagging would include:

Augustine City of God, The Trinity, and maybe since it was so important for the Reformation, "The Spirit and the Letter".

Aquinas, Summa Theologica

Calvin, Institutes

Scheiermacher, The Christian Faith

Barth, Church Dogmatics and Romans

Somewhat lower priority:

Athanasius: On the Incarnation

Basil: On the Holy Spirit

John of Damascus: Orthodox Faith

Luther: Bondage of the Will and Large Catechism (they are the two works Luther of his that Luther said were most important)

Behr: Formation of Christian Theology

Bonhoeffer: Discipleship

All standard confessional writing collections

I will admit that many of the above are not traditional "systematic theologies" but in my opinion all are significant theological works that can inform our conversation.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 7:30 PM

Sure looks mainstream and traditional to me Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 7:47 PM

I'll follow my advice and suggest:

Anabaptist: Bible Doctrine, A Treatise... Daniel Kauffman

Arminianism: John Miley's Systematic Theology, John Miley

Baptist: Systematic Theology, James Leo Garrett

Others: Summa Theologica, Systematic Theology (Oden), Systematic Theology (Grudem), Systematic Theology (Thiselton), 

I think a strong candidate from each church stream should be covered before duplication within streams occurs. 

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 10
Brian Collins | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 7:53 PM

Author here.

The fuller context that NB.Mick highlighted is essential for reading that sentence correctly. I was summarizing the non-evangelical position, rather than stating what the true position should be. I agree with those who see that statement as being in error.

Brian Collins

Posts 151
Rob Lambert | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 8:04 PM

Thank you Brian.

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