Theology Guide

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This post has 132 Replies | 9 Followers

Posts 1111
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 9:13 PM

Mark Smith:
I think a strong candidate from each church stream should be covered before duplication within streams occurs. 

I strongly agree with that.

I do understand that some works (such as the highly structured 19C STs) will be much easier to integrate into the guide than others (Barth, many of the works of the fathers). But I think the primary usage of such a tool should be comparison, not confirmation of one particular approach to theology.

Posts 1022
Keith Pang | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 9:32 PM

Thanks for clarifying Brian

Shalom, in Christ, Keith. Check out my music www.soundcloud.com/kpang808

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 10:01 PM

Rob Lambert:
Where do Logosians discuss theology????

Someplace else. As Sean pointed out there are places to discuss the contents of Faithlife resources including their theological resources, but Faithlife/Verbum/Logos sells to a very broad base. Everyone who uses Faithlife/Verbum/Logos needs to feel comfortable coming onto the forums and the dedicated discussion pages and KNOW that they and their beliefs will not be attacked. We have gotten very good at that - acknowledging that we do not agree except to agree to take the discussion elsewhere.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 4772
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 11:10 PM

MJ. Smith:
We have gotten very good at that - acknowledging that we do not agree except to agree to take the discussion elsewhere.

We also enjoy paint drying.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 11:25 PM

David Paul:

MJ. Smith:
We have gotten very good at that - acknowledging that we do not agree except to agree to take the discussion elsewhere.

We also enjoy paint drying.

Especially the natural paints used on 14th century French icons .....Big Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 4772
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2018 11:34 PM

MJ. Smith:

Especially the natural paints used on 14th century French icons .....Big Smile

We're tempera-mental like that.

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 1:03 AM

Sean:
I strongly second Bloesch. Also, Thomas Oden's ST is excellent for the many links it has to other resources, especially the fathers, that otherwise wouldn't lend themselves to the Guide's structure.

Yes and Yes

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 1111
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 8:59 AM

I went ahead and upgraded today because Anglican Silver was absolutely too good to pass up. Let me say that on first use, I'm liking the look and snappiness of L8 very much. You've done a good job with this upgrade.

Now, the Theology Guide: hoo boy, is this ever limited! You've barely started on it.

I took a look at the subject of my doctoral thesis, theories of the atonement.

I don't want to comment too much on the LSOT article. It is not without problems. I don't understand why you cited Aulén but didn't give a link to the resource, which is in Logos and in my library. This happens a lot in Logos, and there's really no excuse for it:

Coming to the recommended reading, it is extremely limited. Is there a reason that it is restricted only to monographs? Practically every systematic theology has a section or chapter on theories of the atonement, and every theological dictionary an article. Those are often more useful, especially for students and other beginners, than plowing through a longer work. Why isn't Aulén in the list? Again, he's in Logos, and he basically set the parameters for the discussion of this topic for the whole last century. If you're trying to keep it short and basic, he's definitely to be preferred over a work like Moltmann's.

I'm also somewhat confused by the search results. Why is there a separate entry for each page number even if it's the same article? That's going to get really messy when you add more titles.

I also don't understand the selection of the key verses. It's mostly whole chapters of the Bible. It omits many important passages related to this topic. It contains nothing from the Gospels; that right there shows a built-in bias to a particular theory or theories.

Finally, again on the few resources that are annotated: their utility is limited. I say this not because they are bad or unimportant ones. I say it because they have very clear and detailed structures, and it's very easy to find topics in them. Even though I'm not in his camp, Berkhof is on my toolbar and one of the first places I turn for answers to basic questions, simply because he's that easy and clear. The tool doesn't help with that much. I see its greatest potential, yet to be tapped, in being able to compare different theologies and uncover points of agreement and disagreement that would otherwise go undiscovered.

I'm sorry that my feedback on this tool is primarily negative; in general, you've done a great job with L8 and it needs to be commended. Still, the Theology Guide was put forward as a selling point--and it worked; I bought a feature set I hadn't planned on largely because of it. But it's not ready for prime time, and it has a long long way to go before it gets there.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 9:31 AM

Sean:
Coming to the recommended reading, it is extremely limited. Is there a reason that it is restricted only to monographs? Practically every systematic theology has a section or chapter on theories of the atonement, and every theological dictionary an article. Those are often more useful, especially for students and other beginners, than plowing through a longer work.

My understanding is that Recommended Resources will generally cover monographs — especially for big topics — and systematic theologies should be covered in the appropriate section of the Theology Guide (eventually). Less-studied topics do list both articles and Systematic Theology sections under Recommended Resources.

I'm not sure why theological dictionaries aren't linked in. That would seem an obvious thing to do, especially as there aren't many of them.

Sean:
Why is there a separate entry for each page number even if it's the same article? That's going to get really messy when you add more titles.

That makes no sense. It looks like a quirk of Strong's as it doesn't affect the other works. Perhaps an error with how that book was compiled?

Posts 781
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 12:19 PM

Sean:
I'm sorry that my feedback on this tool is primarily negative; in general, you've done a great job with L8 and it needs to be commended. Still, the Theology Guide was put forward as a selling point--and it worked; I bought a feature set I hadn't planned on largely because of it. But it's not ready for prime time, and it has a long long way to go before it gets there.

Thank you, Sean, for taking the time to show FL the amount of work they have ahead of them to make this tool world class, by unpacking your area of expertise.

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Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 1:48 PM

Sean:

<snip />

I don't understand why you cited Aulén but didn't give a link to the resource, which is in Logos and in my library.

<snip />

Thanks for pointing that out, Sean: we missed that one. I've passed that along for correction.

As a reminder for others, you can report tagging errors like this, along with other data errors and content typos, directly from the help menu in the upper right corner.

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Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2018 1:54 PM

Mark Barnes:

<snip />

Sean:
Why is there a separate entry for each page number even if it's the same article? That's going to get really messy when you add more titles.

That makes no sense. It looks like a quirk of Strong's as it doesn't affect the other works. Perhaps an error with how that book was compiled?

We'd also like to improve the user experience for this section. There are some issues with how these annotated text ranges (see here about what those makes possible for the LSTO) interact with article boundaries that we plan to address.

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Mark Barnes:

Sean:
Why is there a separate entry for each page number even if it's the same article? That's going to get really messy when you add more titles.

That makes no sense. It looks like a quirk of Strong's as it doesn't affect the other works. Perhaps an error with how that book was compiled?

Warning: Technical Implementation Details Ahead. (I'm not trying to defend the current behaviour, just trying to explain it.)

The search engine has always searched by “articles” (or verses in Bible/Morph Search, but that's irrelevant for this discussion). When you search for this AND that, the two terms are required to be colocated in the same article. Article divisions are somewhat arbitrary and determined by the resource creator; the standards for determining article boundaries have changed over time. In some old resources, there is one article per page (in the corresponding print edition), even if those aren't at logical boundaries. 

Searching for very long ranges of text (e.g., with {Section} or {Milestone}) is a relatively new addition to the search engine and doesn't map well on to this article-based model. To make the integration of these new searches possible, the long text ranges get turned into one search result per article, even though there's logically just one result. As Sean said, we'd like to improve this user experience, but it will take some development effort. We thought that being able to search (and combine it with WITHIN and other operators) was sufficiently useful that it was worth shipping even with these rough edges.

Regarding "illogical" article boundaries: in the past it was not very easy for us to change the internal article structure of an already-published resource. We've recently developed technology that makes this possible. This may result in us fixing some of these old resources that have odd article boundaries.

Posts 3086
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 2 2018 5:32 PM

Sean:
that right there shows a built-in bias to a particular theory or theories.

Thank you for noting LSOT's non-objectivity. (Cf. https://community.logos.com/forums/t/174070.aspx)

Posts 652
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2018 5:49 AM

Sean Boisen:
for each of the 234 Systematic Theology topics

Thank you for the above information. May I assume that the 234 topics are the sub points found in the Lexham Survey of Theology?

As far as some considering the Theology Guide as Protestant biased, I would consider it part of protestantism biased, as I tried to find information on the following, and nothing came up:

Christian living, orthopraxis, spiritual warfare. 

I did find information on demons, spiritual gifts, etc.

So the question is: in one of the web pages advertising L8, there was a mention of making own Systematic theology.

a) is there a resource that lists all possible sub topics including sub topics in Prolegomena, Israelogy, Moral theology, etc?

b) what is the recommended module to produce own ST?: Pbb, workflow, canvas, notes?

c) can one do an own theology guide? how about something in the line of Catholic Topical index?

Thanks ahead for any input, and congratulations on the improvements to L8.

Blessings.

Posts 1237
Mike Tourangeau | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2018 11:32 AM

Sean Boisen:
In your example, "scripture" is an alias for <LSTO The Bible>: so a search for {Section <LSTO Scripture>} shows all the key verses from this topic (which happens to be a fairly long list).

Sean, this has a lot of potential esp when you compare it the algorithm you are using to generate "Important Passages" This has the potential to do the same for systematic theology +. There is a nexus of data that can be used....

Will we see {Section <LSTO *******>} in the search templates soon?

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 4 2018 5:48 AM

Rob, do a Basic search in your library for "fulfillment of Judaism". In mine, quite a few Christian authors, as well as some of the earliest Church documents/authors described Christ, Christianity, and/or the earliest Church as "the fulfillment of Judaism". I think what you read is building on this thought, that Christ did not say to reject Judaism, as he came to fulfill it and complete/perfect it (Matt 5:17). Luke also implies that Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism (Lk 24:44-45). I know in my faith for example, Roman Catholic, many believe that Judaism is the foundation of our faith not something separate.

One resource that caught my eye, speaking about this topic a lot, was "Surprised by Christ: My Journey from Judaism to Orthodox Christianity" by Bernstein. 

Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary says "Paul demonstrates that the church is not opposed to but rooted in Judaism, and that both will find their eschatological fulfillment through God’s grace and mercy." Hans Dieter Betz, “Hellenism,” ed. David Noel Freedman, The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary (New York: Doubleday, 1992), 133.

Hope that helps!

Posts 151
Rob Lambert | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 4 2018 9:15 AM

Thank you, THANK YOU Don

It does help.

Posts 4772
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 4 2018 10:59 AM

Don Awalt:
In mine, quite a few Christian authors, as well as some of the earliest Church documents/authors described Christ, Christianity, and/or the earliest Church as "the fulfillment of Judaism". I think what you read is building on this thought, that Christ did not say to reject Judaism, as he came to fulfill it and complete/perfect it (Matt 5:17). Luke also implies that Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism (Lk 24:44-45).

Jam the brakes!!! Uh, no...no...and no. Christianity is NOT the fulfillment of Judaism. Let's get something very straight: Judaism is NOT the religion of the Old Testament (Tanakh). Judaism is a religion that was birthed during and after the exile in Babylon. It is the religion of "traditions of men" and "traditions of the elders" that was concocted in response to historical developments (exile, Hellenism, and the Hasmonean travesty of combining the tribally separate offices of king and high priest into a single person). Yeishuua` did not condone Judaism; He condemned it repeatedly. (Mk. 7:5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13.) The things "received" in Mk. 7: 3, 4 are NOT from Scripture but from longstanding rabbinic dictate developed since the exile. The traditions of the elders eventually took on such a non-biblical cant that they invented a story in which Elijah tells a rabbi that YHWH's response to the rabbinic rejection of His will is that He chortles with satisfaction that "My children have defeated Me!" Insane.

The fact that churchmen both past and present have been blind to the drastic difference between Tanakh and Judaism is evidence that the same condemnation Yeishuua` leveled at the rabbinic lie is also to be leveled at the Church with it own unbiblical traditions. These conditions are not unexpected nor unanticipated. They are clearly spelled out in detail in prophecy.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 4 2018 11:47 AM

David Paul, in what way does your response above focus "on Logos Bible Software: our software, products, websites, company, tools, etc."? Weren't you just feeling "moderated"? Is there, perhaps, a causal relationship here?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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