Deleting L8 and reinstalling 7

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Posts 2
David Magee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2018 1:32 AM

Personally I loved it when Logos 4 came out.  Found it a great leap forward.  I'm using Logos 8 and sure it's taking me a little while to get my head around how to best use the new Notes and other features but it's obvious FL is putting a lot of work into development of the product and that's always a great sign.  New features always spark my interest to see how I can best use them or if I can use them to do what I'm doing now only better and smarter.  No product will perfectly suit any individual but that's what the forums are for - to make and discuss suggestions for improvements.  

Posts 238
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2018 4:54 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
Logos 8 is the future, and now is the time to identify specific problems you're having so they can be fixed in 8.1, 8.2, etc. Ignoring Logos 8 and sticking with Logos 7 is not a viable long-term solution.

Bradley

I do feel that you are still missing the point about the release of 8, I think most of those with issues accept that 8 is the future and I think that most of us will concede that there have been some improvements in the UI. 8 may well be the best release of Logos ever, it is also one that for me demonstrates that Faithlife still need to learn about good customer communications.

What was clearly wrong with the release (IMHO) and what has been clearly highlighted in the response to many of the queries here is that 8 was released with a significant number of issues that would be disruptive to long term (loyal) users. All of the issues that I hit were classified here as "known issues" but the point that is still being ignored is that they were "unknown issues" for those of us who upgraded. I honestly believe that your approach to the release and the non communication of the known issues showed a total disregard for the long term users who have a significant financial investment in your products.

Bottom line here is that many if not all of the specific problems were known before 8 was released this is not information that we need to provide to you it is detail that you need to communicate to us with a clear set of priorities and delivery dates.

We needed to be told before upgrading that there were known issues, we needed to know what they were and we needed some guidance on when upgrading from 7 to 8 would be a realistic or sensible option. Auto update on day one was not a good experience for me.

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
Logos 8 is here to stay, and Logos 7 will be unsupported “soon”

In the current context this really does not read like a statement from a company that is listening.

Honestly Bradley, if I was not so heavily invested in Logos I would be an ex-customer now.

Posts 8148
LogosEmployee
Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2018 10:33 AM

Hi Graham,

Thanks for your feedback. We are listening to it.

Posts 238
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 18 2018 1:46 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

Hi Graham,

Thanks for your feedback. We are listening to it.

Thanks Bradley 

Posts 28122
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 18 2018 7:57 PM

Houseonarock:
I was told a long time ago that Faith Life was a business.  Thus the profit motive governs everything.

That is a fallacy. Yes, FL is a business. That does not mean that the "profit motive governs everything." 

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 4841
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 18 2018 8:10 PM

Graham Owen:
What was clearly wrong with the release (IMHO) and what has been clearly highlighted in the response to many of the queries here is that 8 was released with a significant number of issues that would be disruptive to long term (loyal) users. All of the issues that I hit were classified here as "known issues" but the point that is still being ignored is that they were "unknown issues" for those of us who upgraded. I honestly believe that your approach to the release and the non communication of the known issues showed a total disregard for the long term users who have a significant financial investment in your products.

My experience is that the desire to attract virgin users who will probably cherry on Gold (maybe Platinum) or something lower far outweighs any concern for FL's long-time established customers, precisely, no doubt, because such people are ESTABLISHED customers. I have purchased the top-end package offered by Logos/FL since L2.1, and often supplemented by buying lesser packages besides. I've done that even though L4 was intentionally designed to eliminate me as a satisfied customer (by scuttling my most needed features for reasons I'll kindly call "questionable"). In many ways, the ONLY thing that kept me a marginally satisfied customer was Dave Kaplan, whose demeanor and personal touch pretty much kept me positively disposed to send FL a massive share of my meager resources. If not for Dave, I probably would have given up on Logos around L5. Instead, because of Dave's extraordinary energy and friendliness, FL has tens of thousands of additional dollars they would never have gotten otherwise. So...FL has expressed profound appreciation for my continued valuable patronage, right? Well, NO...Dave is unceremoniously shown the door and my decade of voiced distress at having my most-used features of L3 pointlessly eradicated have been met with silence or dismissal.

So, are the bold-marked observations above legit? Absolutely, in my experience. Been a customer half a decade longer than any of the customers featured on the current website homepage (since '96-97), and I'm probably in the top 5% of customers based on overall purchases. Yet in terms of having my most pressing program feature requests attended to, I'm probably in the bottom 1-2% along with Linux-support requests. Is it really that bad? Even when FL is giving away things for free, the best customers that FL have are typically the least likely to benefit from Logos's largess. Over the years, about 2/3 of the freebies have been things that any Portfolio or Collector's customer already owned. The approach seems to be that the customers who are the most loyal and regularly purchase the most costly offerings don't need to experience customer appreciation PRECISELY BECAUSE we are customers that can dependably be taken for granted.

Have to say I don't really understand the approach FL takes. If I were to upgrade to L8, I would get the Ultimate package and add some of the Library Builders I've been considering. My one purchase would probably be the equivalent of over a dozen Bronze package customers. To Dave Kaplan, I was a VIP customer. To FL, I am an irrelevancy. So those feelings of being desregarded...there's probably something there.

Posts 408
Ken Shawver | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 19 2018 9:43 AM

David Magee:

Personally I loved it when Logos 4 came out.  Found it a great leap forward.  I'm using Logos 8 and sure it's taking me a little while to get my head around how to best use the new Notes and other features but it's obvious FL is putting a lot of work into development of the product and that's always a great sign.  New features always spark my interest to see how I can best use them or if I can use them to do what I'm doing now only better and smarter.  No product will perfectly suit any individual but that's what the forums are for - to make and discuss suggestions for improvements.  

David, totally agree. When I upgraded to Logos 4 it was like night/day. Logos 8 has tons of potentials and spending time - sounds like you - to determine how to use the tools available to enhance my studies. Notes, is also one of my biggest challenges and although taking a bit of time I am getting through those. Just need to work with them more to get comfortable.

In Christ,

Ken

Dell Studio 1555; 15.6 True Life LCD; Intel Core 2 Duo T6600 2.20 GHz, 2M Cache, 800 MHz FSB ; 500GB 5400 HDD; 8GB RAM, Win 10, Chrome 70

http://wiki.logos.com/

Posts 47
Willy Arnold | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 11:18 AM

Mark Barnes:

You can run Logos 7 and Verbum 8 (or vice versa). It’s twice the disk space, of course. 

Can someone please share exactly how to do this?  I mean, can I still get all of my resources but have it not automatically update to version 8?

Thanks a bunch if someone has this answer!

Posts 10410
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 11:34 AM

willy arnold:

Mark Barnes:

You can run Logos 7 and Verbum 8 (or vice versa). It’s twice the disk space, of course. 

Can someone please share exactly how to do this?  I mean, can I still get all of my resources but have it not automatically update to version 8?

Thanks a bunch if someone has this answer!

I shared this in my answer above.

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 47
Willy Arnold | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 12:09 PM

Respectfully, If you had I wouldn't be asking the question.  I did read the entire post before asking. 

So here it is again.  How can we run any version of 7 (whether Logos or Verbum), download all our resources and yet not have it automatically update to version 8?  I have not seen that question answered anywhere.

Thanks again.

Posts 10410
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 12:19 PM

willy arnold:

So here it is again.  How can we run any version of 7 (whether Logos or Verbum), download all our resources and yet not have it automatically update to version 8?  I have not seen that question answered anywhere.

Thanks again.

Let me excerpt the critical points:

  • NB.Mick:
    ... downloaded Verbum 7 from an engine-link.

 

  • NB.Mick:
    ... Subsequent to install of 7, download & index of my whole library (...) I then turned automatic updates off and set update channel to manual - otherwise it would migrate automatically to 8 again.

This should do. Note the following:

  • NB.Mick:
    My Verbum 7 is partly synced (such as the Notes, but also library metadata and layouts), partly stuck in time, with lots of helpful books I acquired with L8 Base packages not automatically syncing through (as well as program updates to Logos/Verbum 7, should FL release such). I could bring books over from my parallel L8 installation by using the scan command - as long as they don't use L8-specifics

This may not apply to you if you don't buy many books after setting up the parallel version. 

Hope this helps,

Mick 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 47
Willy Arnold | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 12:26 PM

Ok, so I guess you did say it, but I didn't hear it. Sorry. Let me see if I'm understanding correctly:

1. When you install 7 anew, you get whatever resources you currently own but it will not update to version 8 with auto update off.

2. There is no way after this initial point to download "resources only" without getting engine 8 also.

3. If you have another installation of L8, you can get your newer purchases from it using the scan command.

Did I get that right?

Thanks.

Posts 3214
Whyndell Grizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 12:54 PM

Well haven't reinstalled 7- but Notes is definitely out for me- it is still where I store hilites. Though I still wish I had disabled auto update- is now.

Posts 10410
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 1:00 PM

willy arnold:
1. When you install 7 anew, you get whatever resources you currently own but it will not update to version 8 with auto update off.

That's my understanding and experience. Please understand that we are talking about an unsupported, undocumented and un-recommended way of operating the software.

willy arnold:
2. There is no way after this initial point to download "resources only" without getting engine 8 also.

This is my understanding - for practical purposes at least. "No way" is very strong - there possibly could be a way, but I don't know how to do it.

willy arnold:
3. If you have another installation of L8, you can get your newer purchases from it using the scan command.
 

This should work based on my overall experience and my understanding of how Logos works - and that's how I got (the other direction) my Logos 7 PBBs into the Logos 8 beta I ran in parallel. I have not yet confirmed this by trying it. 

I found one additional aspect today:

  • Set the startup layout in version 7 to "Application closed", blank or a named layout from version 7 that works. I used to have "Most recent layout - any" and Verbum 7 crashed after startup since I had the Lexham Survey of Theology open in L8, the datatypes of which version 7 can't understand.  

There may be more of such quirks. Remember the two installations synchronize, so changes to priorization, to layouts and a number of other things will give ample opportunity to challenge one of the versions with understanding data that is was not programmed for.      

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 47
Willy Arnold | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 1:27 PM

Thanks Mick.  I finally got it to work.  In case anyone else is interested, here is a step by step guide of what worked for me:

How to run Verbum 7 alongside Logos 8: A Step-by-Step Guide


This could also be used in reverse (Logos 7 & Verbum 8).

1. Download Verbum 7 (or Logos 7) here.

2. Run the installer and choose a new location.

3. Uncheck "Automatically download updates."

4. I don't know if it makes a difference whether or not you skip "Synchronizing."

5. After this, I had nothing in my library, zero books.

6. You will see "Updates are available." Do not click this, as it will migrate you to version 8.

7. Instead, use the scan command to read your Logos 8 installation. For me, it was "scan E:\Programs\Logos"  It will seem like nothing is going on, but just be patient. 

8. While that is running, turn off automatic updates:  Tools/Program Settings/Internet/Automatically Download Updates = NO.

9. Type this into the command box: "set update channel to manual"

10. If you buy new books, download them in Logos 8 and then rescan them in Verbum 7, or use the method Andrew mentions below. 

Thanks to Mick and everyone else here for the info. 

Posts 2175
LogosEmployee

willy arnold:

9. Type this into the command box: "set update channel to manual"

10. If you buy new books, download them in Logos 8 and then rescan them in Verbum 7.

If your update channel is set to a channel name that doesn't exist (like "manual"), then you won't ever get any application updates, which means you can turn automatically download updates back on and receive resource updates without having to scan.

Before you do that though, you may want to find the "Data\<random>\UpdateManager\" folder and delete that to ensure that any previously detected Logos 8 update doesn't get downloaded and installed.

Posts 47
Willy Arnold | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 1:47 PM

Awesome! Thanks Andrew!

Posts 47
Willy Arnold | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 1:58 PM

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
If your update channel is set to a channel name that doesn't exist (like "manual"), then you won't ever get any application updates

Is this setting specific to each installation?  Or would it block them all from receiving updates?  I do want to receive updates in my Logos 8 installation.

Posts 22363
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 2:13 PM

willy arnold:

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
If your update channel is set to a channel name that doesn't exist (like "manual"), then you won't ever get any application updates

Is this setting specific to each installation?  Or would it block them all from receiving updates?  I do want to receive updates in my Logos 8 installation.

The Update Channel setting is specific to each installation 

Posts 10410
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2018 4:20 PM

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):

willy arnold:

9. Type this into the command box: "set update channel to manual"

10. If you buy new books, download them in Logos 8 and then rescan them in Verbum 7.

If your update channel is set to a channel name that doesn't exist (like "manual"), then you won't ever get any application updates, which means you can turn automatically download updates back on and receive resource updates without having to scan.

Before you do that though, you may want to find the "Data\<random>\UpdateManager\" folder and delete that to ensure that any previously detected Logos 8 update doesn't get downloaded and installed.

Thanks, that helps! 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

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