Gen 1:1 aleph tav

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 29 2010 11:52 AM

Ted Hans:
That said, I share the same concerns Rosie has expressed on this thread.

Quite appropriately. I am not saying that we should share the interpretation. I am saying that we should respect it at a minimum as a historically valid technique. I find a good dose of the history of Biblical interpretation is a great vaccination against hubris.

Ted Hans:
Thanks for providing some resources that share your interpretive stance.

You're welcome. And I do hope that some people will actually read one or two of them. They can become additive.Wink

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 29 2010 2:04 PM

MJ. Smith:
I am not saying that we should share the interpretation. I am saying that we should respect it at a minimum as a historically valid technique. I find a good dose of the history of Biblical interpretation is a great vaccination against hubris.

I get you now.

MJ. Smith:
And I do hope that some people will actually read one or two of them. They can become additive.Wink

I will give one of them a try (Torah Through Time: Understanding Bible Commentary, from The Rabbinic Period to Modern Times by Shai Cherry - which i have in my Logos library). Blessings.

 

Ted

Edit.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 29 2010 5:16 PM

I finally remembered the title of the other book I wished to recommend:

  • Reading the Book by Burton L. Visotzky

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 29 2010 6:57 PM

MJ. Smith:

I do not agree with the assumption/assertion that God speaks Hebrew; nor do I agree with the logical consequences of that assumption. However, I do believe that it is important to understand the rules of Biblical interpretation which Paul as an educated Pharisee would have been taught. It also should inform our study of the use of the Old Testament in the New.

The issue, in this case, is not upsetting someone's sensibilities. It is a matter of not treating the New Testament as a document from the West after the "Age of Reason". The reason for my original post was simply to take advantage of a teachable moment to point out a that a technique that is odd to us was not odd at a critical point in the salvation history.

Ah, now I understand where you were coming from and am supportive of your teaching moment. I had thought you were making a rather surprising declarative statement as if you believed it and thought it was an absolute when you said, "Hebrew is the language of God. Everything came into being through Hebrew." But now I see you were merely saying that was an interpretive stance in the past and we need to respect it even if we don't agree with it, because that will help us to understand the interpretations of other interpreters.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 29 2010 8:01 PM

Rosie Perera:
I had thought you were making a rather surprising declarative statement as if you believed it and thought it was an absolute

You should have known I give that place to Sanskrit Stick out tongue Not really either. But yes, I made the Hebrew statement in the context of rabbinic commentary. I made the Sanskrit statement in the context of Sanskrit grammarians (?) [I honestly don't remember which group attributes existence to the cosmic OM.Embarrassed]

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Mike & Rachel Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 29 2010 9:42 PM

Hilton Garcia:
The reason aleph tav in gen 1:1 is left untranslated is because that is the name of Jesus or His signature in the OT. It is also the equivalent of alpha and omega in the greek. therefore here is a clear proof of Jesus' pre-existence even before creation.

The word aleph tav is an object marker in Hebrew the same way that English word order marks a verbs object.

Here's the academic editor at logos blog post on this one:

http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/2009/04/great-moments-in-pulpit-paleobabble/

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 29 2010 10:23 PM

Mike Aubrey:
Here's the academic editor at logos blog post on this one:

And I need a link to a factually accurate, verbally abusive post why? Yes, I recognized and laughed at much of the humor but ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Garcia | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 30 2010 4:25 PM

Mike Albrey,

Just for the record you made your post look like I was the author of this quote.  In the original post I stated that I was looking for help in regards to the comment made by  "Ferdie Bayot June 28, 2009" since I knew no Hebrew.

Interesting ideas pop up here and there and should be examined for validity. This was one where after reading the many excellent replies on this post has helped me greatly and at the same time made feel foolish at have even considering this idea had any merit.

However I find these forum to be visited by people that have a sound judgement of the understanding of the Word of God and feel comfortable asking questions when I do not understand.

I also want to  thank you Smile for the links to the  UTubes videos;  they helped me understand the craziness of the original quote.

Thanks to all for the help on this topic.

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Alex Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 30 2010 4:48 PM

Thanks for the link Mike.  While I don't buy his argument, he does raise an interesting point that I hadn't considered and that led to some further research, and that is, in what language did Jesus actually speak these words?  In the Hebrew New Testament, which is of course a translation, the words appear as אֲנִי הָאָלֶף אַף אֲנִי הַתָּו  which I think might be translated "I am the aleph, and I, even I am the tav".

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 3 2010 5:14 PM

There's a lot more to the aleph-taw than Heiser and some others think, particularly in G1.1. But I suspect he also thinks Isa. 28 is really about baby talk.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 4 2010 12:51 AM

David Paul:
But I suspect he also thinks Isa. 28 is really about baby talk.

You know, I need to spend less time on the forums - or more. I haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Mike & Rachel Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 18 2010 3:23 PM

Hilton Garcia:
Just for the record you made your post look like I was the author of this quote.  In the original post I stated that I was looking for help in regards to the comment made by  "Ferdie Bayot June 28, 2009" since I knew no Hebrew.

Sorry, Hilton, that wasn't my intention. I apologize.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 18 2010 6:24 PM

Rosie Perera:

MJ. Smith:

One first has to understand that Hebrew can be interpreted very differently than other languages because Hebrew is the language of God. Everything came into being through Hebrew.

Really? That's the first time I've heard that. How do we know what language -- if indeed it was a human language -- God spoke when he brought everything into being? It is described to us in Hebrew, but does that mean he spoke creation into being in Hebrew? My mother once found some book of linguistics which claimed to have found evidence that Hebrew was the mother of all languages. My mother was into very simplistic books at the time and I'm not so sure about the validity of that theory. I don't know much about linguistics, though, so I daren't speculate. There are other very ancient languages though. Just because the earliest written evidence of the origins of humanity that we have in the Bible are written in Hebrew doesn't mean that it didn't coexist alongside Phoenecian and Sumerian and other Ancient Near Eastern languages for a while, and it might have had some proto-Semitic origin.

 

When God was about to create the world by His word, the twenty-two letters of the alphabet descended from the terrible and august crown of God whereon they were engraved with a pen of flaming fire. They stood round about God, and one after the other spake and entreated, "Create the world through me!" The first to step forward was the letter Taw. It said: "O Lord of the world! May it be Thy will to create Thy world through me, seeing that it is through me that Thou wilt give the Torah to Israel by the hand of Moses, as it is written, ‘Moses commanded us the Torah.’

Ginzberg, Louis, Henrietta Szold and Paul Radin. Legends of the Jews, "The Alphabet". 2nd ed. Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society, 2003.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Mike & Rachel Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 25 2010 2:37 PM

Alex Scott:
Thanks for the link Mike.  While I don't buy his argument, he does raise an interesting point that I hadn't considered and that led to some further research, and that is, in what language did Jesus actually speak these words?  In the Hebrew New Testament, which is of course a translation, the words appear as אֲנִי הָאָלֶף אַף אֲנִי הַתָּו  which I think might be translated "I am the aleph, and I, even I am the tav".

That may very well be. You look in the Bible dictionaries and you'll the that the question of what Jesus spoke is one of the most highly debated historical questions of the past 100+ years. There is no consensus and there like will never be any.

But the point of Mike Heiser's post (and he's right) is that Jesus is not in the Genesis 1:1. And if he is, then he's also in Genesis 4:1: "And Adam knew AlephTav his wife...."

Uhm, no.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 26 2010 9:56 PM

Um...yes.

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