Kjv only

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 5 2018 6:48 PM

Daniel Yoder:

This book is short and, in my estimation, helpful.  

https://www.logos.com/product/30964/the-king-james-version-debate-a-plea-for-realism

Per the Logos page above, this is the one to beat: "the most formidable defense of the priority of the Byzantine text yet published in our day."

https://www.amazon.com/Identity-New-Testament-Text/dp/0840757441 

Per the reviewers, it smashes up modern day criticism.  


Posts 1787
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 5 2018 7:18 PM

Denise:

https://www.amazon.com/Identity-New-Testament-Text/dp/0840757441 

Per the reviewers, it smashes up modern day criticism.  

Would be nice to have this in Logos also.  Always good to have various sides to read for research.

Posts 3
Ethan Muse | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2018 12:08 AM

The historian in me wants to recommend that you go back to where it all started.  The entire KJV-Only movement began with an old Seventh-day Adventist college president named Benjamin G. Wilkinson in 1930 when he published his book “Our Authorized Version Vindicated” which is readily available online.  Even though this happened during the years when SDA theology was at its most legalistic as its leaders were trying to impress the fundamentalists of the day with their own rigidity and extremism, the majority of SDA scholars and leaders at the time felt his book was just too extreme and problematic so they almost immediately published a rebuttal (I believe it’s called “Objections to Our Authorized Version Vindicated”).  Wilkinson later published his reply to their objections (I think it was called “Answers to Objections to Our Authorized Version Vindicated”) and that was it.  All other KJV-Only teachings are built on the foundation that Wilkinson created.  (I own facsimile reprints of all three volumes but do not know if the second two are as readily available as the original as the publisher of my copies died around 5-6 years ago.)  I’ve been told more than once that Wilkinson was so extreme in his views that none of his children had any desire to remain in the SDA denomination after becoming adults but that he eventually had a deathbed conversion where he repented of his legalism and found Christ in his final hours.  He is still extremely popular among some of the far-right fringe Adventist members who want to hold on to the extremes of the 1920-1950 era of SDA theology, while most mainstream Adventists who understand the gospel of grace have little-to-no use for him or his materials today.

Posts 203
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2018 12:33 AM

David Paul:
It seems to me that the greatest motivating factor in the KJV only debate is the desire to circumvent the entire need for textual criticism.

Except as soon as a choice has to be made between two or more manuscripts reading then Textual Criticism applies so whether people accept it or not Textus Receptus was the result of Textual Criticism.

David Paul:
Of course, one way to circumvent the issue of "which English Bible is best and/or acceptable" is to just learn to study and read the original languages.

Except you still need to choose which text to read in Greek...

Posts 4584
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2018 3:08 AM

SineNomine:
David Paul, do you have a book recommendation in light of your theological considerations?

The only book(s) I have read on the subject were dead tree versions, and they have been mentioned above (White...possibly Carson?). I think they are available in Logos. Taken as a whole, I find the subject tedious. Like I said, I think the whole issue is more about psychology than it is about theology. The whole complex uncertainty related to textual criticism and trying to determine the "real" text gives some people the shakes. Uncertainty about YHWH terrifies people. People want to believe that ':Elohhiym can't be pinned down, and yet they want to believe that they somehow have pinned Him down, like a bug on a board. On the other hand, when things regarding "how He does what He does" get uncomfortable, people quickly agree to rely on the old trope of "mysterious ways"...or, as I said, platitudes (sayings that sound religious and/or Biblical but are just presumptions that can't hold up to scrutiny).

Posts 4584
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2018 3:11 AM

Graham Owen:

David Paul:
It seems to me that the greatest motivating factor in the KJV only debate is the desire to circumvent the entire need for textual criticism.

Except as soon as a choice has to be made between two or more manuscripts reading then Textual Criticism applies so whether people accept it or not Textus Receptus was the result of Textual Criticism.

David Paul:
Of course, one way to circumvent the issue of "which English Bible is best and/or acceptable" is to just learn to study and read the original languages.

Except you still need to choose which text to read in Greek...

Yes, which is why it is so much more psychologically safe to ignore the "problem" and insist YHWH sent us a magic English version...though I'm sure they would insist it's actually "inspired".

Posts 4584
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2018 3:20 AM

Denise:

Per the Logos page above, this is the one to beat: "the most formidable defense of the priority of the Byzantine text yet published in our day."

https://www.amazon.com/Identity-New-Testament-Text/dp/0840757441 

Per the reviewers, it smashes up modern day criticism.  

Oh, this one looks much more fun and effective...I just love the strategy of insisting that all opposing views are the work of SATAN!

Plus, he's got advanced degrees! He must know what he's talking about!!

Posts 2653
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2018 7:46 AM

David, your comments are pushing the line (or crossing it) of violating forum decorum. The OP wanted information, not moralizing.

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Posts 1886
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2018 8:06 AM

SineNomine:

(I don't. As a Catholic, the KJV-only arguments are just-sit-back-and-watch debates, preferably with popcorn, for me. But this thread has been helpful for me nonetheless.)

How about setting up a debate between a KJV-only proponent and a Latin Vulgate only proponent? That might attract both a Protstant and a Catholic audience.

http://www.dtl.org/versions/article/vulgate.htm

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Posts 734
Josh Hunt | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2018 8:14 AM

SineNomine:

David Paul, do you have a book recommendation in light of your theological considerations?

(I don't. As a Catholic, the KJV-only arguments are just-sit-back-and-watch debates, preferably with popcorn, for me. But this thread has been helpful for me nonetheless.)

I am curious, how is this issue different for Catholics. Ignorant question, I am sure, please help. 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2018 2:19 PM

Josh Hunt:
how is this issue different for Catholics.

The KJV is a protestant (Anglican) bible! It isn't a Catholic translation. 

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Posts 4584
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2018 2:22 PM

Josh Hunt:
I am curious, how is this issue different for Catholics. Ignorant question, I am sure, please help. 

Well, there's the historical component, of course. The Western Catholic church used the Latin Vulgate for the majority of their existence. English wasn't even a thought, much less a consideration. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2018 3:01 PM

Josh Hunt:
I am curious, how is this issue different for Catholics. Ignorant question, I am sure, please help. 

In Orthodoxy it takes the form of Patriarchal New Testament and the Septuagint as the "preferred text"; in western Catholicism it took the form of the Vulgate as the preferred text. Note, however, the the Vulgate was revised by scholarship and had no definitive text until the Reformation forced the issue. Remember that for two millennia the Anglicans, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, and Oriental Orthodox have happily agreed on the Septuagint as the canon for the Old Testament ... I use "canon" in the sense of "suitable for lessons in worship" and "recommended for personal reading" ... However, it has never bothered them that even within a religious stream, there is not agreement as to what books constitute the Septuagint. And the Oriental Orthodox were quite willing to accept a 27 book canon for the NT and not bother to print or use in worship more than 22 of the books for a millenia and a half. In short, the view of Scripture that requires a definitive canon and a definitive text is tied to a particular interpretation of sola scriptura which is dependent solely on a printed text rather than universal church and tradition. One could mark the divide, perhaps, by asking it scripture is read or proclaimed in worship.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 734
Josh Hunt | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2018 3:13 PM

I am fishing for a simpler answer. Imagine I start attending a Catholic church. I get to talking to my priest about reading the Bible. He tells me to go to Amazon and get... what Bible?

Posts 1892
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2018 3:24 PM

MJ. Smith:

Josh Hunt:
I am curious, how is this issue different for Catholics. Ignorant question, I am sure, please help. 

In Orthodoxy it takes the form of Patriarchal New Testament and the Septuagint as the "preferred text"; in western Catholicism it took the form of the Vulgate as the preferred text. Note, however, the the Vulgate was revised by scholarship and had no definitive text until the Reformation forced the issue. Remember that for two millennia the Anglicans, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, and Oriental Orthodox have happily agreed on the Septuagint as the canon for the Old Testament ... I use "canon" in the sense of "suitable for lessons in worship" and "recommended for personal reading" ... However, it has never bothered them that even within a religious stream, there is not agreement as to what books constitute the Septuagint. And the Oriental Orthodox were quite willing to accept a 27 book canon for the NT and not bother to print or use in worship more than 22 of the books for a millenia and a half. In short, the view of Scripture that requires a definitive canon and a definitive text is tied to a particular interpretation of sola scriptura which is dependent solely on a printed text rather than universal church and tradition. One could mark the divide, perhaps, by asking it scripture is read or proclaimed in worship.

Fascinating. Awareness about such things is just creeping into my awareness.  Thanks for cracking the door open a bit more.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2018 3:26 PM

Josh Hunt:

I am fishing for a simpler answer. Imagine I start attending a Catholic church. I get to talking to my priest about reading the Bible. He tells me to go to Amazon and get... what Bible?

Not Catholic, but a check of this page shows the Bibles that are part of the Verbum Portfolio package. Douay-Rheims is old school. Newer are NABRE, RSVCE, NRSVCE, and there are others. NABRE is probably the most common of these in American churches.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2018 3:35 PM

Josh Hunt:
I am fishing for a simpler answer. Imagine I start attending a Catholic church. I get to talking to my priest about reading the Bible. He tells me to go to Amazon and get... what Bible?

Your first should be the NABRE as that is what it used in the Mass. Other versions what frequently finds brought to Bible study are: NAB, JB, NJB, RSVCE, NRSVCE, Community Bible, an occasional DR, CEV from high school

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2018 3:41 PM

David Paul:
NABRE is probably the most common of these in American churches.

It is currently the only permitted translation (Latin rite/novos ordo) except for Children's services. Elsewhere in the world one finds JB, RSVCE, and NRSVCE as the required text. Those of us living near the border may occasionally fudge a bit ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 4584
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2018 4:10 PM

MJ. Smith:
One could mark the divide, perhaps, by asking i[f] scripture is read or proclaimed in worship.

Well, certainly, in the Tanakh: there is more reference to what we consider to be Scripture being "called" (i.e. spoken). Indeed, the Qaraites (Karaites) identify their chosen distance and separation from Rabbinic teachings and accretions (i.e. Talmuudh) by referring to themselves as "Scripturalists" by their use of the word qaaraa', which means "call" or "call out". When the tohraah was read aloud in the Bible, it is often described as being "called out", and this results in the word many Jews use to describe the Hebrew Scriptures, miq:raa'. [Adding a meim (M) to the front of a verb can turn it into a substantive noun.] Looking at Neh. 8:8 NASB, the word "read" is qaaraa' and the word "reading" is miq:raa'...thus it can be translated as "They CALLED from the scroll, from the instruction of ':Elohhiym, clarifying to give insight so that they understood THE THING BEING CALLED (i.e. the Scriptures)."

Although miq:raa' is used today to refer to the Hebrew Scriptures, TaNaKh: (or simply Tanakh) is more common. It's an acronym word based on the three Hebrew sections of the "Old Testament".

All that said, we must also account for the Bereans, who were described as "searching the Scriptures daily", and this obviously indicates that they had reading matter for daily perusal. Even the terms for "calling" suggest that SOMETHING is being called out, and Neh. 8:8 above shows that this "thing" was a scroll...which obviously had to be read in order to be called out.

I want to add that there is plenty of reason to conclude that YHWH planned for current conditions (ubiquitous Bible reading options, including Logos software) and that what we commonly refer to as "studying" is His fundamental expectation for all who wish to enter His kingdom. Prophecy certainly indicates that will be the case. Worship (which tends to be viewed as collective adulation in song) must be accompanied by intensive reading (to be done individually or in groups).

Parrots can "call out", but that doesn't mean they will be in His kingdom. Wisdom in the form of "insight" and "understanding" are requisite for worship to have any effect at all, because mishandled worship is equivalent to idolatry.

Posts 928
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2018 6:10 PM

One book that might be useful is God's Secretaries: The Making of the King James Bible.  What's nice about it is that it discusses the making of the KJV, its literary qualities and its cultural and religious impact without getting into the "KJV-only" debate.  It's a good reminder of why some people still value that translation so greatly.  Understanding that might help build some bridges between the two camps.

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