Logos 7 Notes Functionality Is Coming Be Patient

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scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 21 2019 7:20 AM

PetahChristian:

Why should any of us get used to complaints?

There are things in every release that we can be thankful for.

Let's count ourselves as fortunate.

I believe FL owners count on our Christian-ish niceness to lesson the concerns raised.

My L8 money was good.  Notes is missing much.  I wanted something I could learn, because it was [mostly] stable and finished.  For me, learning something like notes is an immense undertaking.  Having to tackle something so unfinished, so changeable is horrible.

The 16 ''gonnas'' should have, in bulk, been already installed + operable.

I cannot switch, as FL has the books I study.  Thus, I am trapped.  Angry?  No: disgusted.

U know how we are told to talk ''it'' out?  Here I am, so talking.  Getting chided, too.  I have no need to be chided.  FL needs to be chided, to look in the mirror, + plain + simple do a better job of putting out a product, where far, far less is completed on the backs of the customers.

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 21 2019 7:30 AM

scooter:
U know how we are told to talk ''it'' out?  Here I am, so talking.  Getting chided, too.  I have no need to be chided.  FL needs to be chided, to look in the mirror, + plain + simple do a better job of putting out a product, where far, far less is completed on the backs of the customers.

There is a difference between making an issue known and whining. It is the latter that I get fed up with.  It is fine and reasonable to make a complaint. But when people start griping over the same thing over and over, then accusing FL of bad motives or "counting on our Christian-ish niceness to lessen the concerns raised" then that is not longer complaining about features or making issues known. To me, that is something entirely different that has no place here or anywhere in a Christian's life.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 21 2019 8:13 AM

scooter:
Getting chided, too.

By me? I hope not (although I'm sorry if it came across that way). It would be silly for me to complain about someone else's complaints, wouldn't it?

scooter:
I believe FL owners count on our Christian-ish niceness to lesson the concerns raised.

It's difficult for me to imagine that FL would take advantage of their customers (in any way).

scooter:
I cannot switch, as FL has the books I study.

Perhaps, in this scenario, the grass only looks greener, but another program/business might also disappoint?

I'd also hate to see you switch, and leave our community.

scooter:
to look in the mirror, + plain + simple do a better job of putting out a product

Software, by its nature, isn't ever finished. We'd never be able to ship it, because making it better is never-ending.

Even if we wrote a program to meet our needs, others aren't going be satisfied with it because they have different needs and expectations.

It's not fair of us to hold someone to a standard that we can't attain, to expect someone else to deliver something that we couldn't deliver.

None of us measure up, and none of us can measure up. Thankfully God sees the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

How blessed we are, that the One who created us, can redeem us and deliver us, can refine us and perfect us. Glory to God!

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 21 2019 8:16 AM

David Taylor Jr:

... counting on our Christian-ish niceness to lessen the concerns raised" then that is not longer complaining about features or making issues known. To me, that is something entirely different that has no place here or anywhere in a Christian's life.

David, lowered behavioral expectations for Christians is fairly well known. Sufficient to merit discussion in our church. It's also discussed in our community  (about visiting Christian groups' behavior). And of couse, the present politics hasn't helped ... sin's ok as long as you're not a pastor.

Personally, I find the tremendous support for Logos software curious. I didn't see that at Bibleworks or Accordance.  Logos folks really can't abide criticizing it ... almost sacred, if you sit back and watch the behaviors.


Posts 781
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 21 2019 8:18 AM

David Taylor Jr:
griping over the same thing over and over

I keep hoping senior FL people will listen, then improve things.  Some people / organizations improve when told once or twice.  Not these folks.  They need to be repeatedly reminded to do better, because they never arrive at smoothness.

I am trying to get thru to FL's meta-level, where senior people make wholesale changes, that trickle down into a quality product, rather than ask for a certain thing on the rig to be improved.  This is a long hard haul; I do not believe FL is listening.  You might say that is because I whine too much, an opinion you are free to have.

I volunteered twice on the forums to test what FL produces, as someone who knows little, and needs excellent instructions to move forward with the program.  If it works for me, any one can use it.  FL never asked me to so do.  I would not do this today, for various reasons.

Regarding whining:  I believe this is what you are doing.  FL, as a business, does not need your protection.  They need to be quality, so they can produce quality.  

Thus, I will not stay quiet.  FL did not have to come back to me, saying your credit card bounced.  To a degree, their product bounces.

Posts 650
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 21 2019 8:19 AM

David Taylor Jr:

scooter:
U know how we are told to talk ''it'' out?  Here I am, so talking.  Getting chided, too.  I have no need to be chided.  FL needs to be chided, to look in the mirror, + plain + simple do a better job of putting out a product, where far, far less is completed on the backs of the customers.

There is a difference between making an issue known and whining. It is the latter that I get fed up with.  It is fine and reasonable to make a complaint. But when people start griping over the same thing over and over, then accusing FL of bad motives or "counting on our Christian-ish niceness to lessen the concerns raised" then that is not longer complaining about features or making issues known. To me, that is something entirely different that has no place here or anywhere in a Christian's life.

Normally I tend to agree with you David. However, I'm a little bit more empathetic to people on the issue of the Logos 8 release. Now to be fair, Logos did warn people via email and in the forum about changes and missing functionality of the notes tool. However, they still communicated it in a more marketing oriented tone than an informative/disclaimer tone, and they did it right before the big release (like the weekend before). I just don't think people could conceive of Faithlife releasing such an unfinished product and how much of an impact that would be to their daily workflow.

I actually like a lot of the new notes features, and since I didn't use notes as extensively as some, I'm not hurting the way some are. So I'm being more patient with the people that are being impatient because I can understand how drastic changes to the tools you use to do your work can hurt. People who use lectionaries and lectionary layouts for their regular work are also hurting right now. The home page still leaves much to be desired and I'm not seeing a ton of movement on that when I look at the beta release notes.

I started out with Logos 6 after it had been out almost a year. I upgraded to Logos 7 two months after its initial release (and I had Logos 6 with Logos Now so there wasn't a huge change for me). Logos 8 is the first time I upgraded pretty much immediately and it was extremely painful waiting for 8.1. So I can imagine how painful it must be for people who've been using Logos even longer. The sad thing is there are a lot of great new features in Logos 8 that have been overshadowed and obscured because of the massively unfinished nature of the release. People shouldn't have to wait so long to have a fully functional product after they've PAID for a supposed UPGRADE. People don't expect to LOSE functionality with an upgrade.

So although I'm not a fan of the constant griping about the same issues over and over in the forums, I'm more sympathetic to it in this case because Faithlife kind of deserves it. Maybe they'll make the sure the next major release is fully developed. They're essentially still releasing Logos 8 piecemeal and people are right to be unhappy about that.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 21 2019 8:39 AM

Denise:
Logos folks really can't abide criticizing it

The software is far from perfect (but I am also grateful for it).

If you mean customers rather than employees, I think all of us have feature requests and bug fixes we'd like to see implemented.

Hopefully we all can do that in a civil and gracious manner, without finding fault with the company or its employees.

Even though I haven't used another program, I generally wouldn't want the people who made Bibleworks or Accordance to be criticized, either.

Posts 76
Michael Perry | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 21 2019 8:56 AM

hi Graham

thanks for your reply. if the notes file could be draggged to the favourites menu with its unique NOTE FILE TITLE which could be read in the favourites menu, and then when clicked not just open the notes tool but open the actual TITLED NOTE FILE - then the power of titles as entities independant to the notes tool woudl be restored...?

best wishes

Michael  

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scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 21 2019 8:56 AM

PetahChristian:
without finding fault with the company or its employees.

Then where does the buck stop??  The Connect fiasco should have told the owners to get things right, next time [within the bounds of human error]. Yet, 8 was let out of the gate too early.

8 is not an oopsie.  I simply have to believe the ownerSleep said let 'er rip.  How else did it come into buy-me existence woefully under eventuated?

So, yes, I find fault with the owners of the company.  + not employees below V-P.  U do not like ''fault''; try ''responsibility.''

They shirked it, those senior folks.  I'm tryna wake them up.  Really, they are awake.  8gate occurred with full conscious knowledge of the owners.

Silence is often seen as acquiescence.  I speak up.

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 21 2019 8:59 AM

scooter:

PetahChristian:
without finding fault with the company or its employees.

Then where does the buck stop??  The Connect fiasco should have told the owners to get things right, next time [within the bounds of human error]. Yet, 8 was let out of the gate too early.

8 is not an oopsie.  I simply have to believe the ownerSleep said let 'er rip.  How else did it come into buy-me existence woefully under eventuated?

So, yes, I find fault with the owners of the company.  + not employees below V-P.  U do not like ''fault''; try ''responsibility.''

They shirked it, those senior folks.  I'm tryna wake them up.  Really, they are awake.  8gate occurred with full conscious knowledge of the owners.

Silence is often seen as acquiescence.  I speak up.

Why not contact them directly? They will talk to you.  You can email Bob, you can call and ask for Bob. They do respond.

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Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 21 2019 9:10 AM

scooter:
FL, as a business, does not need your protection.

Agreed. I think people sometimes forget that Faithlife is a for-profit enterprise and not just the IT guy at your church trying to make things better. This is their business. We pay them for their products, and their products are not cheap by any stretch of the imagination. If feel like people have lower standards for Faithlife's performance as a business than they would for other companies, just because it's a Christian company I guess. But Faithlife is not a charity providing a public service with folks complaining about free stuff. People paid for an upgrade to their software.

And for folks saying that "software is never finished"... Maybe the best word to use is "functional" from the perspective of the end-user. What has happened is that the end-user has actually lost functionality that they are now painfully and agonizingly waiting to get back. Therefore, the product is not finished/functional from that definition. It's one thing for the product to be fully functional but missing some enhancements and bells and whistles, but if people can no longer do the basic things they need to get their work done, or have to find endless "work-arounds" for everything, then can you really say that the product release was finished?

It does annoy me that people in the forums feel like they have to step in a speak for Faithlife and protect them from criticism. Sometimes it seems just reflexive. I've seen people do it even when you're just making a suggestion for an improvement. People jump in and start speaking on behalf of Faithlife about what they can't or shouldn't be expected to do. It can be really frustrating.

Posts 76
Michael Perry | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 21 2019 9:47 AM

hi 

I've used Logos for about 20 years, without following the forums and would not have upgraded the NOTES just now if I had had any idea of the issues that would be involved. If I could safely return I would. My  professional workflow is seriosuly diminished now, and I'm, struggling to devleop work arounds, it is time consuming, sao much unnecessary waste.

I regret to say for using logos as a professional tool this fiasco is seriously unprofessional, logos resources to some people is for their daily work and we have to hope Logos takes the problems and issues more seriously now,  and is researching the issues thoroughly and properly as a matter of urgency,  and will uses its resources to be sure the functionality is properly undferstood  and rectified as a matter of priority, for our sake and logos. 

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 21 2019 9:53 AM

Michael Perry:

hi Graham

thanks for your reply. if the notes file could be draggged to the favourites menu with its unique NOTE FILE TITLE which could be read in the favourites menu, and then when clicked not just open the notes tool but open the actual TITLED NOTE FILE - then the power of titles as entities independant to the notes tool woudl be restored...?

best wishes

Michael  

When you drag it to the favorites menu you can rename the link to be whatever you want therefore mimicking the function of having a titled note for you.

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Michael Perry | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 21 2019 10:38 AM

hi David thanks for your reply.

Yes I know the link can be renamed, but it's time consuming, especially when already making notes in several note files  simultaneously, and making new notes files all the time, and dragging them off to multiple locations in the favourites menu, only to have to renaming each one of 10- 20 new files in  day a further  5 times seems to correspond to 5 seperate locations in the favoruties menu,  seems a lot of unnecessary fiddling around when it was not necessary before? Each time the note file is drrgged off to the favouirites menu it simply shows "notes(4)" etc

If the NOTE FILE was TITLED once,  it could be seen in the windows tab, and then simply dragged off here and there. 

I use the FAVOURITES menu as a second user defined library, with my own topics for resources and note files, maybe with 10,000 or more entries over the years, btu wiht a good folder and sub folder organisaiton system I can go where I need quickly... I live it...amazing functionality for reading text books in many formats and all sorts of other resources... combining wiht other logos features of course

best wishes

Michael 

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 21 2019 10:41 AM

Michael Perry:

hi David thanks for your reply.

Yes I know the link can be renamed, but it's time consuming, especially when already making notes in several note files  simultaneously, and making new notes files all the time, and dragging them off to multiple locations in the favourites menu, only to have to renaming each one of 10- 20 new files in  day a further  5 times seems to correspond to 5 seperate locations in the favoruties menu,  seems a lot of unnecessary fiddling around when it was not necessary before? Each time the note file is drrgged off to the favouirites menu it simply shows "notes(4)" etc

If the NOTE FILE was TITLED once,  it could be seen in the windows tab, and then simply dragged off here and there. 

I use the FAVOURITES menu as a second user defined library, with my own topics for resources and note files, maybe with 10,000 or more entries over the years, btu wiht a good folder and sub folder organisaiton system I can go where I need quickly... I live it...amazing functionality for reading text books in many formats and all sorts of other resources... combining wiht other logos features of course

best wishes

Michael 

So are these like category titles? In that case, would tags not make more sense as that is how the program is now designed to be used?

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scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 21 2019 10:52 AM

David Taylor Jr:
You can email Bob

Good idea, Dave.  I will email Bob.

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 21 2019 11:06 AM

scooter:
I simply have to believe the ownerSleep said let 'er rip.  How else did it come into buy-me existence woefully under eventuated?

Scooter, I totally get that you feel that way. During the beta testing when plans kept being stripped down (my description only), due to "not having enough development time before launch day", I got the same feeling. I complained that it felt like a runaway train and that I thought launch day should simply be moved. Phil explained why this couldn't happen in a way that made sense to me and I saw things in a different light after that.

In my mind FL's problem was simply biting off too much. On the other hand, one of the features I was looking forward to the most, got pulled out early on in the beta because problems came up that made it obvious that putting it in 8.0 would have negative effects. I say that to point out that they do care about the end user's experience. I'm now anxiously awaiting the return of my lost pet! 😉

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scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 21 2019 11:19 AM

Reuben Helmuth:

scooter:
I simply have to believe the ownerSleep said let 'er rip.  How else did it come into buy-me existence woefully under eventuated?

Scooter, I totally get that you feel that way. During the beta testing when plans kept being stripped down (my description only), due to "not having enough development time before launch day", I got the same feeling. I complained that it felt like a runaway train and that I thought launch day should simply be moved. Phil explained why this couldn't happen in a way that made sense to me and I saw things in a different light after that.

In my mind FL's problem was simply biting off too much. On the other hand, one of the features I was looking forward to the most, got pulled out early on in the beta because problems came up that made it obvious that putting it in 8.0 would have negative effects. I say that to point out that they do care about the end user's experience. I'm now anxiously awaiting the return of my lost pet! 😉

Thank you for writing, Reuben.  I very much appreciate you taking the time to do so.

I will pray for your lost pet: back soon, as a well-behaved alpha release, with a leash in its mouth, fully 8.x trained for you.  [Seriously - I will pray.]

I feel better after reading your message three times.  I have a busy three-or-so weeks coming up; I'll let perhaps writing Bob percolate in my brain, and decide after this period passes.

God bless!!

Posts 207
Matt Hamrick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 21 2019 11:49 AM

David Taylor Jr:

Denise:

David Taylor Jr:

Denise:

Even if you go back, it's temporary. Bradley says the future is here. I'd assume your best bet is to plead for specific 7-features?

I stayed on 7 - a vision with writing on the wall.

The same complaint over and over.... They have already given a list of what 7 features are coming back and which are not.

Which means nothing ... are you new?  They general alter course over time ... usualy 3-4 years. 

No not new. Been a Logos user for years. But I often see the same people complaining every time a release is made. It gets old.

Well, that's because Logos 8 was not up to par when it was released.  That is the issue every release. Doesn't matter who complains, old or new, but the issue, the deep issue never changes.

Posts 76
Michael Perry | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 21 2019 12:43 PM

hi David

my point is not what I could do, but losing functionality in the simple but effective system I have,making Logos previously work very effectively using note files and the favourites menu,it is not just  question of losing a very effective longstanding  system of working, but also of losing the functionality of ny own user created cross referenced library, which revolves around what I have in my favourites menu and how the old note files interact with the links created .....what's been built up over the last 15 years. ....upon which I have spent hours, days , vacations and time developing the system and a lot of money investing in  upon the basis of.... i worked it out in Libronix around 2003-4, and been doing it ever since, and its only got better since computers have got faster. 

( also using  alongside other aspects of the former note files as well, like highlighting and creating a note directly into a specified  named open note file from the context menu, incredibly quick and effective for running through several text books and using several different note files simultaneoulsy-- simple but effective, no tagging, no changes necessary... all  very effective and powerful)

I would like to be able to continue using that system, and not lose my titled note files operating as they did before, to interact wiht what I already have......, rather than stop overnight, even at the expense of not having the new notes tool, (or best still to somehow have both !)

thanks

Michael 

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