Need for Speed (mostly what this post is about) with a couple suggestions

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 29 2019 3:46 PM

phrogger:

Thanks Mark. I appreciate the dialogue.

Mark Barnes:
Certain apps will also be designed to push the limits of currently available hardware. Games are the obvious example. Video-editing is another. And database servers are a third.

Great examples — Logos is none of those. It's doing nothing that should push the limits of hardware.

Mark Barnes:
a powerful graphical UI.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I know what you mean. Pie charts? Lists of words? The graphics in Logos are extremely basic compared to a game. Like your above example, there are apps out there that should push the limits of hardware — word search and sorting isn't high on that list.

And, I can't emphasize enough — I'm not really talking about intense searches. My biggest problem is that Logos is slow with most basic things.

Here's a short list of the functions that Logos should be able to do eye-blink-INSTANTLY 

Typing a resource into the top search bar, with suggestions showing up — INSTANTLY

Hover over a word to see corresponding word colored — INSTANTLY

Right clicking a word and seeing more info — INSTANTLY

Scrolling — INSTANTLY

One word Bible searches — INSTANTLY

Two word Bible searches — INSTANTLY

Double clicking a word to open a new resource — INSTANTLY

Logos does none of these instantly. Some of them take 1 second, some take 2 seconds. Some initially work well (like scrolling or word hovering), but do it aggressively and Logos will stutter, then stall.

All of these are eye-blink-instant in Accordance. Because that's the argument, right? "You're complaining that Logos is slow doing things that Accordance can't even do." No, I'm complaining about things that almost all apps are expected to do instantly.

None of us can really help get to the bottom of your isolated (most people are not having these issues) problem unless you upload your program logs.

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Posts 43
phrogger | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 29 2019 3:48 PM

Thanks, GaoLu,

I don't use iTunes much (Spotify is my go to), but I opened it and gave it a try for a few minutes. I didn't notice much that seemed slow. Mouse clicks registered, menus opened and closed instantly. I did notice that some resources took a half second to open, but I think that's because they're not stored locally on my computer.

Yes, snappy is what Logos should be with the most basic user interface features. Absolutely immediate in some things. Kind of like Accordance!

Posts 43
phrogger | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 29 2019 3:51 PM

Isolated? 

It seems like there's been quite a lot of people over the years that admit that Logos is not "snappy." 

Logos is slow. And I don't even care if it's slow for complicated searches.

I care that it's slow doing very basic things that all other apps do instantly.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 29 2019 3:59 PM

phrogger:

Logos does none of these instantly. Some of them take 1 second, some take 2 seconds. Some initially work well (like scrolling or word hovering), but do it aggressively and Logos will stutter, then stall. ...

Mark and Dave know about this more than I do (software history), but going back to 2008 before Logos4, the software is largely hand-coded against a graphics base. I'm over-generalizing. But at one time, you could visably track the inefficiencies in the code. Each update, you could also often see a peter-paul balancing, the net being little. Apparently they did more on L8, but after 4 previous 'this is better!' I'll stay.

On my set up, Logos5 was the most efficient (I think the last 32bit).  Since then, worse, especially searches (start to 1st stop-able).


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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 29 2019 4:05 PM

phrogger:

Isolated? 

It seems like there's been quite a lot of people over the years that admit that Logos is not "snappy." 

Logos is slow. And I don't even care if it's slow for complicated searches.

I care that it's slow doing very basic things that all other apps do instantly.

Yes, Isolated. We aren't talking about over the years, we are talking about Logos 8 and MOST people have reported significant speed increases. Obviously, mileage will vary based on your system.  But it is not excruciatingly slow like it used to be which is why we have asked several times for your logs.

Something with your installation seems to not be working as it should but nobody can diagnose the issue if you don't send the logs. I'm not really sure why the hesitation to send those. Do you need help getting the logs?

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Posts 43
phrogger | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 29 2019 4:29 PM

🙂

I probably will need help getting them. 

My hesitation has been that I really don't think it's the job of the user to fix the app for the developer.

I do appreciate the kind offers to help, David T. and others.

And even though I hope my puny comments might influence development plans for L9 or L10, in reality, I want Logos to run faster THIS WEEK.

So, sure — how do I do this log thing? I might not be able to respond right away, but I'll try to fit it in over the next few days.

Posts 2961
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 29 2019 7:48 PM

phrogger:

My hesitation has been that I really don't think it's the job of the user to fix the app for the developer.

This is true to a point, but if they don't know what the problem is (not everyone experiences this) they can't know how to fix it. That's why they ask for logs so they can see what is going on.

Here is a link that tells you how to upload logs: https://wiki.logos.com/Diagnostic_Logging 

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2019 8:21 AM

phrogger:

Mark Barnes:
Certain apps will also be designed to push the limits of currently available hardware. Games are the obvious example. Video-editing is another. And database servers are a third.

Great examples — Logos is none of those.

It is. Logos is a database (or rather, a collection of hundreds of databases, totalling many gigabytes in size).

phrogger:

Mark Barnes:
a powerful graphical UI.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I know what you mean.

The reference to a powerful graphical UI was in comparison with other database software. When I use SQL Server Management Studio, for example, I have to type in SQL commands by hand, and I'll get the results in a simple table. Compared to that, Logos has a powerful graphical UI. In fact, it's UI is so good, you didn't even recognise it as a database!

I'll say again, Logos isn't quick. It isn't as quick as Accordance, and it certainly isn't as quick as Bibleworks. That said, in normal use, on decent hardware (like yours) it isn't terribly slow either. That's why lots of us think something is out of the ordinary for you.

phrogger:
All of these are eye-blink-instant in Accordance. Because that's the argument, right? "You're complaining that Logos is slow doing things that Accordance can't even do." No, I'm complaining about things that almost all apps are expected to do instantly.

Logos and Accordance have a difference philosophy in lots of areas. For example, in my opinion, Accordance is ugly. No matter what I do with the text display settings, I can't get anywhere near the same standard of typography as I get out of the box with Logos, even though I've much more control in Accordance. Neither can I get any of the Logos custom highlight styles in Accordance. None of that might matter much to you, but to some people (including me) it makes a huge difference to how well I read on screen. But the trade off is that the technology Logos uses to display all this is significantly slower than the very basic technology that Accordance uses. It might make the difference between Accordance displaying the text instantly, and Logos displaying the text in 0.25s. To me that 0.25s is well worth it. To you it might not be. That's the choice we both make. But we have to choose. We can't have world-class typography and world-class speed at the same time.

I could say similar things (for example) to the speed of the right-click menu. Logos has chosen to load the right-click menu with all kinds of data. I can see, at a glance, the lemma, the root, the sense, the LN number, the strong's number, the people speaking or mentioned, not to mention all kinds of labelling. The vast majority of that simply isn't available in Accordance, but it does slow Logos down. I'll be honest in saying that I think the right-click menu is overloaded. I'd love a leaner right-click menu that (for example) shows the lemmas and roots, but didn't show the labels, and therefor was quicker. But my point here is simply to say that Logos and Accordance are doing different things. Logos' right-click menu in a Bible probably queries at least 10 separate databases, and a couple of online databases. I don't think Accordance's right-click menu queries any databases at all.

None of this is to say that Logos is necessarily superior to Accordance (although it's certainly my preference). But generally, when the Logos developers are faced with the choice of adding functionality or quality at the expense of speed, then nine times out of ten, they'll choose to add the functionality and quality. 

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LogosEmployee

phrogger:

Here's a short list of the functions that Logos should be able to do eye-blink-INSTANTLY 

Typing a resource into the top search bar, with suggestions showing up — INSTANTLY

Hover over a word to see corresponding word colored — INSTANTLY

Right clicking a word and seeing more info — INSTANTLY

Scrolling — INSTANTLY

One word Bible searches — INSTANTLY

Two word Bible searches — INSTANTLY

Double clicking a word to open a new resource — INSTANTLY

Logos does none of these instantly. Some of them take 1 second, some take 2 seconds.

Almost none of these will happen “instantly” in Logos, even on the fastest hardware. Almost all these operations load data from disk, and if the target is “instantly” then performing any I/O at all means you've already missed the goal.

If your complaint is that they take 1–2 seconds, not 1–2 milliseconds, then we probably don't need to see logs, because your system sounds like it’s performing as designed. As Mark said, many operations in Logos are designed to take a little bit of time in order to bring back more information.

(Scrolling should be instant; if you’re seeing beachballs, something may well be wrong. One-word Bible searches should be as quick as ¼ second; if they’re significantly slower, something may be wrong there, too.)

Posts 43
phrogger | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2019 10:46 PM

Thanks, Mark. I appreciate your response.

I mean, I really don't know these things, but when I hear about people needing fast computers it's typically for gaming or video editing, not database processing. 

And you almost lost me with the mention of SQL Server Management Studio. I had to look it up. I agree — Logos is light years ahead of that thing! What I'm thinking is that we shouldn't be even comparing Logos to things like SQL Server Mana....

Accordance is pretty ugly, agreed.

Logos has a nice look. I'm so glad you mentioned the importance of typography, and couldn't agree with you more.

Mark Barnes:
We can't have world-class typography and world-class speed at the same time.
 

Really? Is this the heavy graphics Logos is bogging down on? The (admittedly) pretty letters? Should great typography need to be slow?

Mark Barnes:
But generally, when the Logos developers are faced with the choice of adding functionality or quality at the expense of speed, then nine times out of ten, they'll choose to add the functionality and quality

Yes, it's all trade-offs. But when the "functionality" you offer causes your speed to lag in the most basic things (screen scrolls, double clicks, hovers, resource opening, etc.), you've chosen poorly. Or, at least you've made a design choice that I don't prefer (which is what I said in my initial post).

Logos reached out to me (as have other forum users for log help). I'm going to find some time next week to submit to that process.

Posts 43
phrogger | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2019 11:15 PM

Thanks for your reply, Bradley!

By "instantly," I mean faster than I can get my finger off the button I just pressed. Instant-enough. I'm sure there's stuff out there about when lag time becomes noticeable and annoying for users vs. when it's fast enough. Like, as I'm typing this, the letters are appearing "instantly."

I think 1 or 2 seconds is a problem when it comes to some things like scrolling, or right click even registering, or hovering for corresponding word.

The problem is exacerbated because Logos seems to get stressed more easily than other apps. Again, I have no complaint about Logos taking 10 seconds to run a search that took me 10 minutes to design. My concern is that Logos is the first of all my apps to bog down and then go beachball over core functions, such as highlighting a word, or triple clicking a resource, scrolling, etc.

Why can't Logos be designed so that these the most basic user interface functions stay fast — always. When I compare Logos to Accordance, my comparison is not in areas where Logos is designed to do more, what I'm asking is why can't Logos be just as fast as Accordance in the most basic user interface functions?

[A good person from Logos and other forum users reached out to me about logs, and I will give that a shot next week to see if the problem is my computer. I'm skeptical, as I've run multiple versions of Logos on multiple computers, with the same observations]

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GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2019 1:46 AM

Based on my own experience on several computers, it really seems to me that something could be done to speed  you up.  I would add my voice to others that something can likely be done to make the difference you want.  I would suggest getting started..first by uploading logs.  

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2019 1:53 AM

phrogger:
I'm going to find some time next week to submit to that process.

This sounds like "as a sheep to the slaughter"! 😂

I'd say it's NOT your hardware, but very possibly a configuration thing. Also, why don't you see if there's a noticeable difference by turning "Use Internet" to OFF in the program settings (you'll need to restart Logos). This won't solve everything, but if your connection is slow, there's a considerable difference in a number of areas when the application is looking for additional info on the FL servers.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2019 2:30 AM

phrogger:
Really? Is this the heavy graphics Logos is bogging down on? The (admittedly) pretty letters? Should great typography need to be slow?

It's certainly not the only factor. There are many ways in which Logos tries to do more than Accordance. Each of these adds a fraction of a second to the performing of certain tasks. They add up.

phrogger:
But when the "functionality" you offer causes your speed to lag in the most basic things (screen scrolls, double clicks, hovers, resource opening, etc.), you've chosen poorly. Or, at least you've made a design choice that I don't prefer (which is what I said in my initial post).

Again, as we've said repeatedly, and Bradley has recently emphasised, if you are experiencing small slowdowns in these areas (a tenth of a second?), that's relatively normal. It's how Logos works. But beachballs? No, something is wrong.

We're saying two things: Logos isn't instant, but Logos isn't slow.

phrogger:
I think 1 or 2 seconds is a problem when it comes to some things like scrolling, or right click even registering, or hovering for corresponding word.

Scrolling should not take 1 or 2 seconds.

Populating the right-click menu might take a few seconds in a Bible, but registering the click should be instant.

Hovering for corresponding words can be slow (1-3 seconds?), especially for words that have many search results. (Remember, depending on your settings, Logos will be highlighting every occurrence of that word, and every occurrence of the root, in every open Bible. If you've got four Bibles open, that up to 16 searches being carried out for every hover. And that feature's not even available in Accordance.

PS - When you send the logs, it would also be very helpful to have a screenshot of your layout, too.

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Mark Barnes:
PS - When you send the logs, it would also be very helpful to have a screenshot of your layout, too.

I think it would also be incredibly helpful if you could record a screencast of all (or most) of the problems you've mentioned on this thread, so we can see how your system's performance aligns with our expectations. We want to help you, and it would be useful to see the magnitude of the problem.

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Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 17 2019 8:25 PM

phrogger:

Another day, another hour wasted trying figure out how to fix something that's not working as it should in Logos. Only to get to the end of that hour and find out in a forum that this has been a problem for nearly a decade, and no one's wiling to fix it.

I'm spending a lot of money every month paying off Logos, and will continue to...

...but I'm sure glad I kept Accordance after I "switched" a year ago. I'd love to remove those air quotes from "switched," but I never really switched—I have to keep Accordance open the whole time I'm using Logos. Logos runs way too slow on the $2000 MacBook I bought for the purpose of having a computer fast enough to run Logos — so slow I'm constantly app switching over to Accordance in frustration to copy a verse or run a simple search. (2018 MacBook Pro Touchbar Quadcore 16GB)

By slow and buggy I mean Logos is by a long shot the slowest and buggiest app of all I have on my computer. Menu button presses, very basic searches are sluggish. With a few other apps open, I can get the spinning beachball with simple screen scrolls! Right mouse clicks that don't even register because Logos was still busy thinking about the fact that I highlighted a word.

Logos developers must be frustrated by how slow their own app runs. Can the developers at Faithlife actually point me to an app on their own Macs that runs slower than Logos? This is a serious question. I've never seen an app on my Mac run this slow in 11 years.

Maybe it's just a different approach to computing. As an Apple user, I'm used to well designed apps that simply work — basic functionality is a must. Sure, slow down when you're doing difficult tasks, but Apple apps don't feel like they're falling apart simply driving down the road. Logos feels like its always on the edge of getting hung up on the most basic things.

Logos is looking more and more like it's designed to be a well-featured toy aimed at enthusiasts —  not a tool for professionals to bang out their work.

Not a hater. I want Logos to work, to win. Fix known bugs, and make up for missing basic features (see my posts on copy/paste). Almost more than anything, I need SPEED from Logos for my weekly exegetical and research deadlines. SPEED! In my life, I won't be able to learn all the advanced features that Logos presently has, but every single minute I'm wishing Logos had more SPEED on the most simple and basic user interface items.

Suggestions for speed:

1. Do what Apple does. They devote every other hardware and software release to SPEED. Like screen scrolling speed. Window opening speed. Since Logos needs to catch up, how about Logos 9 and 10 just for SPEED. I'd buy it. Just get marketing to repackage and rename some of the hundred features that people haven't even touched in 8 and it can even seem like new features.

2. Buy Accordance. The company. Maybe the reason Logos lacks SPEED is because Accordance owns it. Start a Go-Fund-Me to hire away their top engineer. Who bought the Bibleworks patents? I remember that being a fast program.

At the end of the day, I'm ranting against a software application that I greatly appreciate made by people who are excellent and talented. At the end of the day, my beef is likely caused by carefully considered business decisions at Logos OR simply some app design strategies I don't share.

Thanks for anyone who's listening!

Hi, I used a similarly spec'd but older Macbook then yours (Late 2013, quad core, 16 GB, Nvidia dGPU). It definitely doesn't feel like you described. So like others said it most probably isn't a hardware problem. It is either how you setup your Mac (unlikely), or how you setup Logos (more likely), or you might have unintentionally exaggerated the situation given your perception (somewhat likely.)

So while you're trying to complain about the slowness of Logos, and to a certain degree Logos is indeed slow, the replies from most people to you is really about trying to solve your current situation such that you at least experience Logos as decent as our experience. Once done this improvement is instant to you, instead of waiting for 1.5 years for Logos to release next major upgrade.

Also, I think this page can help you to understand why Logos requires a powerful computer: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360007554992-Recommended-Hardware-and-Software . In fact, before I first started using Logos, I used to have a very slow laptop (was using Logos 4 on a 2007 laptop in 2010 that only has 2 cores, 1 GB RAM, no dGPU, spinning HDD.) But once I find out how power hungry Logos is I bought my first gaming laptop, not for running games but for Logos only. If fact if you read the last paragraph in the above link, essentially they are suggesting one to buy a gaming laptop (I paraphrased.)

Just to point out that many points in the original post you wrote isn't really true. e.g. they focused a lot on speed in Logos 8 and they claimed it to be up to 10x faster when searching according to this: https://www.logos.com/8 . They are even that Apple-y to try to compare the speed in x-factor relative to their previous generation, which is something Apple often do. (Qualcomm even copied that recently when they announce how much faster their CPU is relative to their previous generation one, while not mentioning in fact it is still slower than Apple's last generation CPU.)

Also, buying Accordance won't help a thing. Logos' slowness is (probably, at least mostly) not because of a poor programming but because it has offered more features. e.g. one can easily write a Bible search program that return results almost instantly, but that was base on a very different model on what we are searching for. e.g. to optimize for Bible search (main text only), their wouldn't be any metadata in between, and perhaps not trying to rank to an order which might be more relevant, etc. In computing, one will often find that the more specific a piece of code is, the more room for optimization and hence faster. Vice versa, the more general, the slower. Logos is in this later case, it is being very general/flexible, but it will sacrifice speed for sure. The art is really how to be very general while not sacrificing too much speed, and it seems Logos 8 is trying to fix that.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 17 2019 10:17 PM

phrogger:
My concern is that Logos is the first of all my apps to bog down and then go beachball over core functions, such as highlighting a word, or triple clicking a resource, scrolling, etc

That should not be happening. You need to work with Bradley by providing him the information necessary to understand why your slowness has reached the problematic level. I have performance problems only with the first build of drop down menus ... which, for a variety of reasons, I decided to live with rather than track down. For myself, the accuracy of Logos coding is more critical than speed.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 18 2019 5:03 AM

phrogger:
[A good person from Logos and other forum users reached out to me about logs, and I will give that a shot next week to see if the problem is my computer. I'm skeptical, as I've run multiple versions of Logos on multiple computers, with the same observations]

Were you ever able to do this, do you need any assistance?

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