Its time for better cross referencing
It seems to me that one of the great benefits of electronic bible studying is the ability to pull information together in a unique, automated way. That "automated way" needs to be based on manual data. Right now the manual data that the cross references are based on seems to be the new Treasury of scripture knowledge (for the most part). I love the TSK and it has been invaluable, but it seems like is full potential is being held back by the limitations of its original format, namely paper. It seems like I look at a verse, and it gives me the cross references for that verse. If I feed it two verses, it throws all those verses into an unorganized list of references.
I would love to see a "Biblical Cross References" tool added to biblical People/Places/Things. This would take the passage you input and provide an organized list of cross references. They would be orginized under the following system...
• Conceptual cross references (pericope level)
• bullet point references (verse level)
• subpoint references (phrase level)
• Word usage references (word level)
Comments
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Phillip,
I agree...this is an important one.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Here's a bandwagon I am eager to jump on.
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Great Idea!!
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I like it.
Sort of like a Super Duper Treasury of Scripture Knowledge... [Y]
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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I love the idea, but it sounds like a LOT of work and more cash leaving my wallet. Could you imagine the headache of trying to figure the best way to present such a diversity of cross-references?
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Philip, besides the NTSK, the Passage Guide has its own cross reference not based (exclusively at least) on the NTSK. I have found this to often be more helpful than the NTSK (which gets overly 'preachy' at times -- just the cross references, please).
I'm not sure how your last suggestion would be different from a Bible Word Study.
I do agree that phrase searching/comparison (in the original languages, please) could be easier, and very beneficial. But we can do it now through morphological searches. But NTSK does this too (to a degree, at least, though often incomplete), and I usually have open and use it for this purpose.
But I would love to see a Bible Phrase study, that worked like a Bible Word Study (select phrase> right-click> choose "Bible phrase study"). It would be an impossible task to do this for all the phrases in the Bible, since, who gets to decide what a phrase is and isn't? So just let me select and then run it based on the morphology of the current selection.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard DeRuiter said:
I'm not sure how your last suggestion would be different from a Bible Word Study.
bible word studies do not provide cross references for the theme of a passage. In other words, if I want to find the other passages in a bible that deal with the same topic as this passage. It would be somewhat like a topical except I would go to a passage and see simular passages rather then a topic and see subtopics that then get me to a passage.
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Philip Spitzer said:
bible word studies do not provide cross references for the theme of a passage. In other words, if I want to find the other passages in a bible that deal with the same topic as this passage. It would be somewhat like a topical except I would go to a passage and see simular passages rather then a topic and see subtopics that then get me to a passage.
You know, Dr. Frank C. Thompson thought the very same thing...[;)]
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Philip Spitzer said:
I would love to see a "Biblical Cross References" tool added to biblical People/Places/Things
I agree
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Great idea, Philip! [Y]
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GREAT idea!
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I may have posted this before, but this thread as good a place as any to repeat it.
I'd love to see a Logos tool that automatically coalesces cross references across my resources. For example. NAS95, ESV, NET, and some other bibles have very good cross references. Couple that with TSK. From those resources, L4 could build a complete list of resources for a verse or passage. The result would be the mathematical union of cross references from those resources.
Donnie
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Donnie Hale said:
I'd love to see a Logos tool that automatically coalesces cross references across my resources. For example. NAS95, ESV, NET, and some other bibles have very good cross references. Couple that with TSK. From those resources, L4 could build a complete list of resources for a verse or passage. The result would be the mathematical union of cross references from those resources.
This is essentially what the "Cross References" section of the Passage Guide does.
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Donnie Hale said:
I'd love to see a Logos tool that automatically coalesces cross references across my resources. For example. NAS95, ESV, NET, and some other bibles have very good cross references. Couple that with TSK. From those resources, L4 could build a complete list of resources for a verse or passage. The result would be the mathematical union of cross references from those resources.
Donnie
I think that would be a great addition. I use Bibleworks and they have a compilation of the various cross references with the most common ones at the top of the list and a separate section of the less frequently cited references. I find it very useful and that would be a nice addition to LOGOS.
edit - Bob posted while I was typing. He is right of course, although I like being able to just scroll through a passage and have the cross references change as well.
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Bob Pritchett said:
This is essentially what the "Cross References" section of the Passage Guide does.
Thank you Bob for the hint. [Y]
I need to take a look at this tool more closely. I have to say TSK has been the only thing I use regularly and also the resource own references. Any cross-reference systems added to Logos would be great (Thompson etc.) [:)]
Bohuslav
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:
Any cross-reference systems added to Logos would be great (Thompson etc.)
I'd love to see the NIV Study Bible cross-references added. And the NIV Study Bible notes while you're at it.
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Rosie Perera said:Bohuslav Wojnar said:
Any cross-reference systems added to Logos would be great (Thompson etc.)
I'd love to see the NIV Study Bible cross-references added. And the NIV Study Bible notes while you're at it.
I have paper NIV Study Bible and somehow I almost haven't opened it for years. I should look at it. Especially if there is a chance the new NIV Study Bible would come soon.
Bohuslav
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Bob Pritchett said:Donnie Hale said:
I'd love to see a Logos tool that automatically coalesces cross references across my resources. For example. NAS95, ESV, NET, and some other bibles have very good cross references. Couple that with TSK. From those resources, L4 could build a complete list of resources for a verse or passage. The result would be the mathematical union of cross references from those resources.
This is essentially what the "Cross References" section of the Passage Guide does.
Does it use just prioritized resources to do this? If so, what types of prioritized resources (bibles, dictionaries, commentaries, TSK)? If not, what does it use and how do I control that?
Donnie
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Donnie Hale said:
Does it use just prioritized resources to do this? If so, what types of prioritized resources (bibles, dictionaries, commentaries, TSK)? If not, what does it use and how do I control that?
In response to all this I created a custom passage guide, which I named Cross Reference Guide and only included the cross references section. Now I have even more questions. A label at the top says The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge. To the right of that label is a star that says "Mark this article as especially useful" when you hover over it. I take this a simple marker that indicates that I found something useful in these cross references. Next to it is a cross which says "remove when you hover over it. This just seems to remove the label with no other effects. So if I wanted that label removed everywhere I would have to click it hundreds of times. That doesn't seem to be very useful. It is not the same as the cross above it which removes the cross reference section. Logos seems to have to printed out those verses considered most useful and just give the reference to others. So, like Donnie, I would like to know the rhyme and reason.
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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Paul Golder said:
I like it.
Sort of like a Super Duper Treasury of Scripture Knowledge...
I would consider buying a resource with this title. [:P]
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Bob Pritchett said:
This is essentially what the "Cross References" section of the Passage Guide does.
But it all just looks like a big gob of references. It is not organized like suggested in the original post.
• Conceptual cross references (pericope level)
• bullet point references (verse level)
• subpoint references (phrase level)
• Word usage references (word levelIt would be great if this tool could break down the gob a bit, along the lines of TSK/NTSK.
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Ken F Hill said:Bob Pritchett said:
This is essentially what the "Cross References" section of the Passage Guide does.
But it all just looks like a big gob of references. It is not organized like suggested in the original post.
• Conceptual cross references (pericope level)
• bullet point references (verse level)
• subpoint references (phrase level)
• Word usage references (word levelIt would be great if this tool could break down the gob a bit, along the lines of TSK/NTSK.
THere is a slight but un-obvious organizational aide to the Passage guide cross references. Adequate? no, but good to know none the less. References that are bold appear as cross references in multiple resources. This will usually point you to the stronger cross references.
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Philip Spitzer said:
[passage guide] References that are bold appear as cross references in multiple resources
You're right, it is good to know. Thanks.
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I have suggested multiple times with little support my opinion of how cross-referencing should work:
1. the connection between two passages should be named as to type: examples:
- shared type scene
- quotation
- allusion
- adjacent narrative event
- parallel narrative event
- deuterograph (duplicate passage)
- shared image
- shared idea
- part of same rhetorical structure
- shared literary form
- shared lectionary date
- same idiom ......
2. One should be able to navigate in a manner similar to visuword http://www.visuwords.com/?word=kick+the+bucket with the ability to hide or display particular relationships and ranges of Scripture
3. One should be able to take 'notes' in the form of adding nodes, links and link types.
4. One should be able to link standard notes to the relationship between two nodes
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I have suggested multiple times with little support my opinion of how cross-referencing should work:
1. the connection between two passages should be named as to type: examples:
- shared type scene
- quotation
- allusion
- adjacent narrative event
- parallel narrative event
- deuterograph (duplicate passage)
- shared image
- shared idea
- part of same rhetorical structure
- shared literary form
- shared lectionary date
- same idiom ......
2. One should be able to navigate in a manner similar to visuword http://www.visuwords.com/?word=kick+the+bucket with the ability to hide or display particular relationships and ranges of Scripture
3. One should be able to take 'notes' in the form of adding nodes, links and link types.
4. One should be able to link standard notes to the relationship between two nodes
Wow -- that takes it up a few notches. I have not seen your previous posts. I don't know if this is jumping ship from the original post in this thread, which I support, but I really like your bold vision (if it wouldn't slow my system to a crawl). Is this up for vote on the suggestion-voting pages?
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MJ. Smith said:
I have suggested multiple times with little support my opinion of how cross-referencing should work:
1. the connection between two passages should be named as to type: examples:
- shared type scene
- quotation
- allusion
- adjacent narrative event
- parallel narrative event
- deuterograph (duplicate passage)
- shared image
- shared idea
- part of same rhetorical structure
- shared literary form
- shared lectionary date
- same idiom ......
2. One should be able to navigate in a manner similar to visuword http://www.visuwords.com/?word=kick+the+bucket with the ability to hide or display particular relationships and ranges of Scripture
3. One should be able to take 'notes' in the form of adding nodes, links and link types.
4. One should be able to link standard notes to the relationship between two nodes
MJ you are really taking it up a few notches. Good idea. Sounds like a good idea for the next improvement in the search function.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Taking the ideas from another current thread on saving floating windows in Favorites, I have all the following resources in a single folder in Favorites which I open in a floating window. It only takes a few seconds to arrange them into a workable layout so that I can do most types of cross referencing work. I can use the Bible search like a concordance for individual words. The custom Cross Reference Guide can also have a collection of Bible theme books. Click to enlarge. Switching between Bibles shows the references for the new Bible in power lookup.
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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Ken F Hill said:
Is this up for vote on the suggestion-voting pages?
to me, this is an obvious use of current technology. Given some jumps that Logos made for L4 and given Logos' staff familiarity with the use of this technology in linguistics/language study, I was almost surprised that Logos didn't seem to have this on their radar.
P.S. the roots of this approach go back at least as far as the DOS program Houdini - the program that brought down Nixon by its organization of the Watergate data[H]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I gave it 2 votes, although I had to free up my votes by retracting some from a couple of other items.
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