Matthew 24:3 in a Modern Greek Bible Translation

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Posts 22
Alexander | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Mar 1 2019 7:06 AM

The ancient text of Matthew 24:3 reads:

“Καθημένου δὲ αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τοῦ ὄρους τῶν ἐλαιῶν προσῆλθον αὐτῷ οἱ μαθηταὶ κατ᾽ ἰδίαν λέγοντες· εἰπὲ ἡμῖν, πότε ταῦτα ἔσται καὶ τί τὸ σημεῖον τῆς σῆς παρουσίας καὶ συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος.”

One modern Greek Bible translation has rendered the verse in the following way:

“Ενώ καθόταν στο Όρος των Ελαιών, οι μαθητές τον πλησίασαν ιδιαιτέρως, λέγοντας: «Πες μας, πότε θα γίνουν αυτά, και ποιο θα είναι το σημείο της παρουσίας σου και της τελικής περιόδου του συστήματος πραγμάτων.»”

Is the modern translation correct when it renders the word συντέλεια with the phrase “final period” (τελική περίοδος)? Should the word be simply rendered as "end" (τέλος)?

Posts 10649
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 1 2019 7:45 AM

That's an interpretive 'meaning' issue. Some scholars argue what you found in the modern greek, as being the best guess.  It really depends on when Matthew was written, and where.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 22
Alexander | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 5 2019 10:43 AM

It is a question of whether the word συντέλεια implies a period of time or whether it simply means “end.” There are some contexts in ancient texts outside of the Bible where it is used interchangeably with the word τέλος (“end”). I am interested to know how Greek-speaking people understand the word συντέλεια at Mt 24:3.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 5 2019 11:51 AM

Go for it. Late-20th century usage.

But ‘simply’ is a bit naive. And generalizing usage is worse ... as above, depended on the religious group.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 4844
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 5 2019 12:08 PM

Alexander:
Is the modern translation correct when it renders the word συντέλεια with the phrase “final period” (τελική περίοδος)? Should the word be simply rendered as "end" (τέλος)?

Maybe your question would be easier to respond to if you elaborated on what you think the difference is between the two. Are you suggesting that "end" is the absolute termination, and are you objecting to "final period" because that includes an indefinite but presumably short span of time culminating in the absolute termination? If so, you would seem to be objecting to an inclusion of "time allowing for events" that leads up to the absolute termination in the use of the term "end". If you object to such an inclusion, why?

These are the kinds of questions that must be clarified if we (generally speaking) are to avoid speaking past one another. Determining what the text is is only half the battle. The more important part is determining what it means. I am constantly surprised at the multiplicity of ways a text can be interpreted (ergo misinterpreted).

I'm making this point because the concern of encountering misunderstanding and misinterpretation isn't confined to the ancient texts under discussion. It is just as likely that we (generally speaking) will misinterpret what we are saying to each other about the texts. This can happen for a variety of reasons, such as lack of clear articulation and word choice, assumptions about what will be understood by a given comment, etc.

Posts 22
Alexander | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2019 7:18 AM

I do not see much difference between the meanings of the words synteleia and telos in Mt 24:3, 6, 14. The word telos in vss. 6, 14 is the termination of the age. Since in the context, Jesus is speaking about the end rather than a long period of time, the word synteleia at Mt 24:3 can be understood simply as “end.” So vs. 3 seems to be referring to the same end which is mentioned in vss. 6 and 14.

Posts 708
Kevin A Lewis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2019 8:06 AM

Worth bearing in mind that Modern Greek to Koine Greek is as Modern English is to the English of something like Beowolf's English.

Maybe not quite that severe - but the languages have all 'moved'

Shalom

Posts 22
Alexander | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 8 2019 4:05 AM

There is no doubt that there are many differences between the modern and ancient Greek languages. My question pertains to the meaning of the ancient word συντέλεια as it is used in Mt 24:3. Modern Greek translations try to convey that meaning with modern Greek words. Therefore, I want to know whether the phrase τελική περίοδος (“final period”) is a correct modern translation of συντέλεια or whether συντέλεια should be translated simply as τέλος (“end”).

Posts 4844
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 8 2019 7:31 AM

Not sure you will get much response here, since a working knowledge of Modern Greek is needed to make an informed reply, and I'm not aware of any folks here with that skill.

Posts 22
Alexander | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 9 2019 3:38 AM

Then regardless of the modern Greek language, can anyone simply explain whether the ancient word συντέλεια implies a final period of time or whether it simply means “end; termination” (as a short point in time)?

Posts 1942
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 9 2019 10:02 AM

Alexander:
can anyone simply explain

Since this forum is about Logos resources, and not personal interpretations....I don't want to presume anything about your familiarity with the Logos program, but are you aware of "Power lookup"?

Right click on a word in a Reverse-Interlinear, select the lemma in the popup, then select "Power Lookup". This will generate a window full of your resources that address the lemma so that you can make your own conclusions.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 10649
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 9 2019 10:54 AM

You didn’t ask, but if curious, the modern greek resource in Logos reads like what you call the ancient greek above, if I remember right (not at my PC).

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 22
Alexander | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 10 2019 9:23 AM

I am aware of the function which looks up the definitions of a word in the available lexicons. I had read through all the definitions of the word συντέλεια in the lexicons which I have in BibleWorks and Logos Bible Software. It is not clear to me whether the word implies a period of time in some contexts. The definitions of the word seem to correspond more to “end; termination” rather than “final period of time.”

Posts 3
Brock Daniel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 9 2020 3:53 AM

συντέλεια αἰῶνός = τέλος του κόσμου, end of the world

Αs a Greek, I can tell you that the word  «συντέλεια» < συν(the complete) +τέλος(end) with the meaning of «end» is common knowledge here. 

The word «αἰῶν» has many meanings, in that case it means the world (like John 9:32, Galatians 1:4 and other)

Posts 479
Liam & Abi Maguire | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 10 2020 2:20 AM

Alexander:

It is a question of whether the word συντέλεια implies a period of time or whether it simply means “end.” There are some contexts in ancient texts outside of the Bible where it is used interchangeably with the word τέλος (“end”). I am interested to know how Greek-speaking people understand the word συντέλεια at Mt 24:3.

When I have technical questions like this I take them to the Bible Hermeneutics Stackexchange. The folks over their know their onions and are free to discuss the textual interpretation of the bible, rather than simply how to use Logos tools to find it. 

Word of warning, you do need to be clear and precise on what exactly you want to know - they can be a finicky bunch on occasion. That said, I don't think there is a better place to find answers to questions like yours. (Liam)

Carpe verbum.

Posts 22
Alexander | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 10 2020 4:05 AM

Thank you. I have seen from various sources, including Bible commentaries, that the word συντέλεια in Matthew 24:3 refers to the same end as the word τέλος in Matthew 24:14. In any language, words are often used synonymously or interchangeably.

Posts 10649
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 13 2020 8:18 AM

Looks like Playful snuck in a fake KFC .... and not terribly sophisticated.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 421
LogosEmployee
Joe McCune (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 13 2020 8:53 AM

Denise:

Looks like Playful snuck in a fake KFC .... and not terribly sophisticated.

Thanks for calling out this spam post, Denise.  It has been deleted from this thread.

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