Overblown marketing hype

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 2 2019 7:59 PM

Truth be told, this is a pluralistic and ecumenical forum and no one can deny it, not even MJ’s logic could argue other wise.  There are many here calling each other “brother” but in reality they really don’t see each other as brothers because they each have their own “theological views.” Pluralistic because there are many denominations being represented here and ecumenical because there’s nothing you can do about it, so you must accept it and try to get along with everybody regardless of their denomination.  Sad, but absolutely true!

DAL

Posts 128
Andrew116 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 2 2019 11:27 PM

Couldn’t agree more. 

Ive said the same numerous times

Posts 247
Gary Osborne | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 3 2019 6:07 AM

DAL:
Truth be told, this is a pluralistic and ecumenical forum and no one can deny it, not even MJ’s logic could argue other wise.  There are many here calling each other “brother” but in reality they really don’t see each other as brothers because they each have their own “theological views.”

I absolutely agree, brother.  :)

Sorry, it just called out to me.  I really am only kidding.

Posts 10035
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 3 2019 7:28 AM

DAL:

Sad, but absolutely true!

I've never seen any sad arguers. Arguing is fun. True, when opinions ('beliefs') actually intrude, and churches have to split or, or, or, something bad will happen. A few seconds of sadness, before the fun returns.


Posts 438
J. Remington Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 3 2019 10:33 AM

MJ. Smith:
Let me break it down for you.

Not sure why you're breaking it down for me and not the others who started using it as an excuse to go after the others I mentioned. I mean I could give the same exact explanation that SineNomine gave: I wasn't just randomly targeting Catholics because he targeted some protestants. Rather, "I was honestly (and, I believe, accurately) describing the group of people" and I'm not just trying to further mimick his defense. I would only add the word *some* to what SineNomine said. 

You may say that that doesn't make my comment less insulting towards them. . . Okay, and the same goes for the protestants (and Piper) who were targeted. No one said anyone was rotting in hell. I took it as a jab at certain out-groups and pointed out how the shoe seems to fit on the other foot to me.

Again, I seriously doubt you would be giving the "break it down" speech to SineNomine or Friedrich--in other words, had the targets remained those more distant from your camp. And I don't mean to give the impression that I was deeply offended by the jabs. I took it in the humor Denise describes. But don't wag your finger at me when I jab back. Wink (That goes to PetahChristian and John Fidel too. Consistency is all I ask.)

Posts 438
J. Remington Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 3 2019 11:19 AM

Sorry, couldn't resist:

Thought about doing two more, one for Catholics and then just a dude in t-shirt and jeans(?) for non-liturgical Protestants... but I probably already spent too much time in this thread Stick out tongue

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John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 3 2019 12:53 PM

J. Remington Bowling:

But don't wag your finger at me when I jab back. Wink (That goes to PetahChristian and John Fidel too. Consistency is all I ask.)

I was directing my request to everyone. Sorry you took it as if it was only toward you. It was a simple request that PetahChristian made, not even a reprimand. I actually make the same request again.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 3 2019 11:18 PM

J. Remington Bowling:

MJ. Smith:
Let me break it down for you.

Not sure why you're breaking it down for me and not the others who started using it as an excuse to go after the others I mentioned.

Let me try to explain how it looked from my perspective. I actually read Josiah's post as more negative towards the "perceived target audience" than SineNomine's post. However, I will grant you that the assumption of "never done any post-secondary studies" is a poor use of a stereotype in his attempt to describe the target audience. But I would hold that "aimed at a specific, relatively small group of primarily American and largely non-liturgical Protestants" is a (historically) accurate description of the market Faithlife targets most. As for Friedrich's post, I took it as a tongue-in-cheek post. As I know very little of John Piper (ask me instead about Josef Pieper), I simply took him as a example of an author who provides answers with a sense of certitude. I know too little to judge it as an insult or a compliment - but I will grant you that it could be taken to equate John Piper to a "first year bible college intern" which would be insulting to Mr. Piper.

You then post:

J. Remington Bowling:

Friedrich:

lol, that's bad.  likely the first year bible college intern wrote that.  Or John Piper

Or the Roman Catholic Church...

Which I could take as equating the "Roman Catholic Church" with a "first year bible college intern" which I thought was an unlikely interpretation given the author. Or I could take as equating the "Roman Catholic Church" with offering "unquestionable answer to every Biblical question" which, although ludicrous, was the more charitable interpretation. My personal choice in such situations is to always select the more charitable interpretation as the intended interpretation. But this left me with two difficulties.

The first was the ongoing frustration with Catholics being reduced to the "Roman Catholic Church" which results in a misunderstanding of the diversity within the Church which is already simplified in popular culture by a misunderstanding of the diversity with the Latin Rite. To this issue, I responded with  gentle reminder.

MJ. Smith:
Incontrovertible evidence that the original Logos post is in error. as you refer to an non-existent entity.

It was my understated humor as a illustration that use of Logos does not lead to right answers.

But I was still bothered by the fact that the flawed posts of Josiah, SineNomine, and Friedrich, enabled you to post against a church based on your clearly flawed understanding of a church you do not even name correctly. I made the choice to assume you genuinely did not understand why your post went too far rather than assume malice on your part. Why? Because I have found that ignorance is often easily mistaken for malice.

I understand how you took certain posts as jabs where I did not. I understand why you might want clarification from the posters, which you have gotten. However, I am still looking for the verse "Do unto others as they do unto you" ... I think it's known as the brass rule. Wink

So, allow me to challenge you: How would you describe the target market for the ad?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 3 2019 11:44 PM

J. Remington Bowling:
the targets remained those more distant from your camp.

My "camp" i.e. immediate family includes Mennonite, Church of Christ, Catholic, Quaker (Friends), Unitarian, Church of the Nazarene (I think - this person keeps changing), Community Church, Apostolic Lutheran, ELCA Lutheran, Congregational (UCC), Presbyterian, United Church of Canada, vehement atheist, semi-Spiritualist ... oops, I forgot the Jews and then foster kids added Baptist and Episcopalian... which is why I try to be even-handed - complaining about abuse of non-Trinitarians, LDS, Jehovah's Witnesses . . . as easily as Catholic and Orthodox.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 128
Andrew116 | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 2:35 AM

Well this got off topic quickly 

Posts 5247
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 4:35 AM

It did Andrew but see what bad advertising can led too? 

-Dan

Posts 781
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 5:50 AM

Dan Francis:

It did Andrew but see what bad advertising can led too? 

-Dan

Good one, Dan!

Posts 438
J. Remington Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 8:15 AM

MJ,

I'll avoid debating the issue further, except to say that I'm tempted to quote some Catholics referring to "Roman Catholicism" as an entity. And while you may think my understanding of them is flawed, it's actually based on arguments I've heard certain Protestant-to-Catholics make and they, themselves, are getting this from Catholic apologists on the internet. And of course a John Piper fan or a non-liturgical American Protestant would want to argue that to think this fascile slogan would appeal to them is just as ludicrous etc.  . . .  I'll leave it at that.

(I might add that had I actually been ofended by the Piper or American non-liturgical Protestant swipes then I might have applied the Gold Rule. As I took as simply a display of the users biases I applied the 'Brass Rule'--as you put it--to bring out the bias and other side of the story. . .  And I'm not ashamed of that and would do it again! And perhaps will do it again if certain groups are targeted again . . .)

MJ. Smith:
So, allow me to challenge you: How would you describe the target market for the ad?

Well I agree with everyone else that it's a really absurd ad. In fact I had done a double take on it about a month ago when looking at the website on mobile and I'm surprised it has take this long for the issue to come up on the forums.

I don't believe that Faithlife people were putting out the ad to target a specific mindset, in the sort of bad-faith way in which a politician might cynically offer a platitudinous policy suggestion knowing that his or her base has a lot of suckers. (I'll avoid ratcheting this thread up to an 11 with some real world, contemporary examples Stick out tongue).

It seems most likely to me that a bad slogan just slipped through the pipeline without them giving it enough thought. 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 9:19 AM

PetahChristian:

J. Remington Bowling:

Friedrich:

lol, that's bad.  likely the first year bible college intern wrote that.  Or John Piper

Or the Roman Catholic Church...

(Hey if we're firing shots, let's fire shots)

Please, let's not start being disrespectful.

I need to own up that my humor contained within it my opposition to unquestioned certitude.  It was not a shot against denominations but against rigidity.  Still, on a forum like this with many involved who come from a variety of backgrounds I recognize this comment created unnecessary distance and sarcasm.  Against both Piper and interns.  For that I am sorry.  I would still say Marketing needs to think through marketing hype first.  There are likely forums for that.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 144
Josiah | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 9:34 AM

MJ. Smith:

J. Remington Bowling:

MJ. Smith:
Let me break it down for you.

Not sure why you're breaking it down for me and not the others who started using it as an excuse to go after the others I mentioned.

Let me try to explain how it looked from my perspective. I actually read Josiah's post as more negative towards the "perceived target audience" than SineNomine's post. However, I will grant you that the assumption of "never done any post-secondary studies" is a poor use of a stereotype in his attempt to describe the target audience. But I would hold that "aimed at a specific, relatively small group of primarily American and largely non-liturgical Protestants" is a (historically) accurate description of the market Faithlife targets most. As for Friedrich's post, I took it as a tongue-in-cheek post. As I know very little of John Piper (ask me instead about Josef Pieper), I simply took him as a example of an author who provides answers with a sense of certitude. I know too little to judge it as an insult or a compliment - but I will grant you that it could be taken to equate John Piper to a "first year bible college intern" which would be insulting to Mr. Piper.

You then post:

J. Remington Bowling:

Friedrich:

lol, that's bad.  likely the first year bible college intern wrote that.  Or John Piper

Or the Roman Catholic Church...

Which I could take as equating the "Roman Catholic Church" with a "first year bible college intern" which I thought was an unlikely interpretation given the author. Or I could take as equating the "Roman Catholic Church" with offering "unquestionable answer to every Biblical question" which, although ludicrous, was the more charitable interpretation. My personal choice in such situations is to always select the more charitable interpretation as the intended interpretation. But this left me with two difficulties.

The first was the ongoing frustration with Catholics being reduced to the "Roman Catholic Church" which results in a misunderstanding of the diversity within the Church which is already simplified in popular culture by a misunderstanding of the diversity with the Latin Rite. To this issue, I responded with  gentle reminder.

MJ. Smith:
Incontrovertible evidence that the original Logos post is in error. as you refer to an non-existent entity.

It was my understated humor as a illustration that use of Logos does not lead to right answers.

But I was still bothered by the fact that the flawed posts of Josiah, SineNomine, and Friedrich, enabled you to post against a church based on your clearly flawed understanding of a church you do not even name correctly. I made the choice to assume you genuinely did not understand why your post went too far rather than assume malice on your part. Why? Because I have found that ignorance is often easily mistaken for malice.

I understand how you took certain posts as jabs where I did not. I understand why you might want clarification from the posters, which you have gotten. However, I am still looking for the verse "Do unto others as they do unto you" ... I think it's known as the brass rule. Wink

So, allow me to challenge you: How would you describe the target market for the ad?

I am willing to own and apologize for my post.  Even though I intentionally avoided naming names (thus leaving the ____ blank), the tone was negative and likely due to some personal struggles that have nothing to do with Faithlife, or Logos, or anyone on these forums.  I probably shouldn't have posted in the thread in the first place.  I just wanted to agree I do not like the advertisement or what it suggests, whether that be perceived or real.  I actually try to avoid these forums, but periodically have free time I can't figure out what to do with.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 10:17 AM

Josiah, speaking for myself, we are all good.  Hopefully how we regroup and display a bit of self-reflection and humility will be a positive counter to when we pop off.  But I still think your original concept is valid, it's way overstated and could be addressed far more effectively and with power by marketing.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 2:41 PM

Friedrich:
Hopefully how we regroup and display a bit of self-reflection and humility will be a positive counter to when we pop off. 

Yes

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3007
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2019 3:02 PM

Friedrich:
Hopefully how we regroup and display a bit of self-reflection and humility will be a positive counter to when we pop off.

Yes

MJ. Smith:
I actually read Josiah's post as more negative towards the "perceived target audience" than SineNomine's post. However, I will grant you that the assumption of "never done any post-secondary studies" is a poor use of a stereotype in his attempt to describe the target audience. But I would hold that "aimed at a specific, relatively small group of primarily American and largely non-liturgical Protestants" is a (historically) accurate description of the market Faithlife targets most.

I'm sorry. I should have omitted my "most/all of whom have never done any post-secondary studies in any related field" because, since I'm writing on the Internet and not talking in person, that aspect makes it easy to read as a jab, which I should have been more alert to, and thus that part spoiled the rest of my description and contributed to subsequent conflict, hopefully now resolved.

Posts 89
David Staveley | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 5 2019 12:00 AM

I don't know if you've heard of it, but just in case you haven't, try to read Christian Smith's "The Bible Made Impossible". He identifies the cause of all the differences of opinion over bible interpretation in the Church, and comes up with a very good antidote to it, which is Christologically centred. It was my "Best Read" of last year. Remarkable book.

Dr David Staveley Professor of New Testament. Specializing in the Pauline Epistles, Apocalyptic Judaism, and the Dead Sea Scrolls.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 5 2019 12:27 AM

David Staveley:
read Christian Smith's "The Bible Made Impossible".

Yes

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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