Do you think we could change the way we phrase things on the forum?

Brothers and Sisters,

It's no secret that L4 has it's fans and detracters....we all have our own opinions about how the software works, how useful it is to us, etc..

But having said that....can we all just do one thing?

People (Like me) who have good experiences with L4 are not naive, we DO know that some don't like L4 software as it stands today. (even us "fanboys" have things we don't like about L4 believe it or not)

We are NOT just championing L4 like a bunch of blind unthinking drones programmed by "the man"...ok?

I don't speak for everyone when I say this but this is why (in my mind) we get into lots of heated discussion that go no where and lots of "names" get called (you know what they are)

Here is what I think the crux of it is:

Many times the negative comments (or the positive ones conversely) are put forth without the qualifiers that makes it clear that there is a preference being spoken of. Example

"...For me...logos just isn't what I prefer..."

"...for my workstyle, I like L3's approach to notes in leiu of L4's"

But sadly, they are instead put out there like dogmatic pronouncements....such as:

"...L4 is garbage compared to L3...Logos really dropped the ball!"

Can you see how much different that is than:

"...for the way I like to work, L4 is just not floating my boat the way L3 did; I like this feature of L3 and that feature of L3...."

If those who are negative (and positive for that matter), would phrase their likes and dislikes in that way...then I'm sure that a lot of the Logos Denominations would vanish....we'd all just be stating what we prefer, and not what's a gem or a piece of garbage.

Just some thoughts ... Big Smile

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LaRosa Johnson

amen [y]

Fred Chapman

I don't speak for everyone when I say this but this is why (in my mind) we get into lots of heated discussion that go no where and lots of "names" get called (you know what they are)

Robert,

You can speak for me on this subject[Y]

I am preaching this Sunday on on 1 Thessalonians 3:11-13. These words from Paul speak volumes about what Paul prayed for the Thessalonians with regards to love and how to increase in it. I am going to try and encourage my congregation to meditate and apply this passage; while I try to apply it myself.

For the record I am a huge fan of L4, even with its flaws. One of the reasons I have been able to overlook some of the bugs and missing features is because I have confidence in Bob P and employees at Logos like Bradley Grainger, Melissa Snyder, and many others; and beleive they are working every day to hear our voices even when whine and complain. There has been major progress in L4 and I am sure we will continue to see improvements in features and performance.

Dave Hooton

If those who are negative (and positive for that matter), would phrase their likes and dislikes in that way...then I'm sure that a lot of the Logos Denominations would vanish....we'd all just be stating what we prefer, and not what's a gem or a piece of garbage.

It's not as much fun in the forums any longer. There is too much tension as the battle rages on over privacy and sync'ing with IT professionals who "know" how simple it is to reverse engineer the software to make it easy for Logos to change when they have very settled opinions that have not changed in over 9 months. I invite them to do as they wish within the limits of the EULA, to accept that things will not change in a hurry and instead to create a positive atmosphere with suggestions and hints that Logos can take on board. It took a number of years for Series X software to mature into Libronix 3 and I don't see L4's elevation happening anytime before mid-2011! The software still has to battle with a M$ programming interface (.NET) as much as Libronix had to contend with Internet Explorer, and the developers are still learning its ins and outs.

spitzerpl

We are NOT just championing L4 like a bunch of blind unthinking drones programmed by "the man"...ok?

You mean you haven't picked up your "We Love Logos" Shrine kit yet? I've got mine set up in the living room and it is really cool.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135088#Comment_135088

Fred,

thanks for the info...I'll take a look at the passage, IT will undoubtedly be good for me.

Phillip....

hang on....mine's coming.

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135092#Comment_135092

Phillip....

hang on....mine's coming.

Its really cool. It comes with a sample of Mrs. P's Lasagna.

MJ. Smith

If those who are negative (and positive for that matter), would phrase their likes and dislikes in that way...then I'm sure that a lot of the Logos Denominations would vanish....we'd all just be stating what we prefer, and not what's a gem or a piece of garbage.

There is another aspect as well - some of the language is very poor modeling of Christian behavior.

Fred

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135113#Comment_135113

There is another aspect as well - some of the language is very poor modeling of Christian behavior.

Indeed.

Furthermore, unnecessarily disparaging words will not make Bob P or developers such as Bradley work any "harder" or "faster", either - I honestly believe that the entire crew at Logos takes great pride in their work, and will not rest until Logos 4 is as good in its time as Logos 3 was (and still is - {g}).

"The flogging will continue until the morale improves" - NOT !!!

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135088#Comment_135088

You mean you haven't picked up your "We Love Logos" Shrine kit yet? I've got mine set up in the living room and it is really cool.

I tried to set mine up in the living room, but my wife said it did not go with the accent wall she painted. She'll be surprised when she comes home to find the L4 splash screen logo painted on that wall[:P]

Clinton Thomas

But sadly, they are instead put out there like dogmatic pronouncements....such as:

"...L4 is garbage compared to L3...Logos really dropped the ball!"

Hi Robert,

Who is saying the "L4 is garbage"? I did a search for the word garbage and could not find this quote except from you and people quoting you complaining that others are saying this.

I'm not saying that it is not out there, but I couldn't find it. It does seems to appear most frequently in your complaints about what others are supposedly saying as opposed to what is actually posted.

A long time ago I posted suggestions I try and follow on another thread (which incidentally you had started with a very similar post, complaining about this same issue.)

If a person asks a question about the software and I can help, I answer the question

If a person complains (even if it is over the top) and asks a question about the software, I try to acknowledge the frustration, ignore the complaint, and answer the question. Proverbs 15:1

If a person complains (and it is over the top) and does not ask a question about the software, I ignore them. I try not to post about it, and not add any fuel to the fire. I just leave it on the floor. Proverbs 26:4

I believe if everyone did this, the signal to noise ratio would improve dramatically and the flame wars would stop or be limited.

I say Let Logos police those who are out of line privately.They can do this, and if this does not work, they can ban users.

Finally, I believe that if I find that ignoring the complainers is too much for me to stand, I should probably channel my energy into a different activity/ministry. I believe that lIfe is too short to get upset about stuff like this.

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135209#Comment_135209

I tried to set mine up in the living room, but my wife said it did not go with the accent wall she painted. She'll be surprised when she comes home to find the L4 splash screen logo painted on that wall

Good Idea! I wonder if there is a Logos ringtone out there?

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135231#Comment_135231

If a person asks a question about the software and I can help, I answer the question

If a person complains (even if it is over the top) and asks a question about the software, I try to acknowledge the frustration, ignore the complaint, and answer the question. Proverbs 15:1

If a person complains (and it is over the top) and does not ask a question about the software, I ignore them. I try not to post about it, and not add any fuel to the fire. I just leave it on the floor. Proverbs 26:4

I believe if everyone did this, the signal to noise ratio would improve dramatically and the flame wars would stop or be limited.

I say Let Logos police those who are out of line privately.They can do this, and if this does not work, they can ban users.

Finally, I believe that if I find that ignoring the complainers is too much for me to stand, I should probably channel my energy into a different activity/ministry. I believe that lIfe is too short to get upset about stuff like this.

Well said!

Robert, the people who read your reminders to be nice on the forum will not be the new ones who come storming in here with nasty complaints from time to time, but rather the regulars who already know this. So you'll still be faced with some obnoxious complainers now and then. Just let it roll off when that happens, as Clinton suggested. Sometimes a gentle word turns away anger in such cases, but if not, then best to leave the person alone to steam in their own juices. Anything other than that will just turn it into a bigger deal than it is.

Paul Golder

Just some thoughts ...

Very good ones at that Brother. [Y]

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135239#Comment_135239

I think there are some very good points in this thread... If I may add a little illustration as most of us preachers enjoy using....

To avoid frustration with the complaints (my smart tags, sermon file, printing ones included)

Let's look at this as the expensive investment it is: Now think of it in this way, if you went and purchased a brand new car and it was supposed to have a state of the art GPS system, DVD system and cd changer, but none of the three were available or working would you not complain to the Dealer you purchased it from? The vehicle runs as it should, safe, secure, good mileage but you are still missing key features that should be there, 8 months later you still don't have them....

I know it is not exactly the same but it may help keep frustration at a minimum... For some they could wait on the components, some would never use them and be happy the car runs good, then some are going to pitch a fit until what should be working is working because they get a tremendous amount of time saving use out of them.

(I was going to throw in a OnStar phone home comment as well, but I thin we hit that enough today : ))

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135088#Comment_135088

You mean you haven't picked up your "We Love Logos" Shrine kit yet? I've got mine set up in the living room and it is really cool.

I was going to, but I missed the pre-pub price.

And there is no way I'm going to pay that much when I can get it in print for half as much.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135247#Comment_135247

Now thin <sic> of it in this way, if you went and purchased a brand new car and it was supposed to have a state of the art GPS system, DVD system and cd changer, but none of the three were available or working would you not complain to the Dealer you purchased it from?

Unfortunately for the analogy, when I bought my new theoretical car, it came with with a disclosure that my GPS, DVD and CD functions were not currently available. But it also stated that I would get these features at no additional cost when they were available.

A fallacious analogy is just another type of the inflammatory language that this thread is pleading with us to stop. My calling you on it is, unfortunately, also potentially inflammatory. This double bind is simply another strong argument in favor of the original poster.

[Edit: you will see my apology to Frank later in this thread; After careful consideration I chose not to revise this post as it would destroy the context of subsequent posts..]

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135248#Comment_135248

You mean you haven't picked up your "We Love Logos" Shrine kit yet? I've got mine set up in the living room and it is really cool.

I was going to, but I missed the pre-pub price.

And there is no way I'm going to pay that much when I can get it in print for half as much.

If you missed it, you can still get one here or here or here (slightly different versions; check 'em all out) for a better price than whan Logos sells it for. Or join the We Love Logos Facebook group. Oops, I'm not supposed to advertise competitors. [;)] Here's mine:

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135231#Comment_135231

Hi Robert,

Who is saying the "L4 is garbage"? I did a search for the word garbage and could not find this quote except from you and people quoting you complaining that others are saying this.

Clinton, that was my phrase....the intent was to show the difference between a dogmatic derogetory statement, and a "preferential" statement. You could have put your own words in as you choose "garbage" "worthless" "useless" "crap" whatever.

Better?

I'm not saying that it is not out there, but I couldn't find it. It does seems to appear most frequently in your complaints about what others are supposedly saying as opposed to what is actually posted.

Yes..like I said...my point was not the actual words but the illustration itself, heck...if you said..."in my opinion, for the way I like to work....it's garbage"...that's a preferential statement too....not a dogmatic pronouncement. [:D]

A long time ago I posted suggestions I try and follow on another thread (which incidentally you had started with a very similar post, complaining about this same issue.)

I believe if everyone did this, the signal to noise ratio would improve dramatically and the flame wars would stop or be limited.

I say Let Logos police those who are out of line privately.They can do this, and if this does not work, they can ban users.

Finally, I believe that if I find that ignoring the complainers is too much for me to stand, I should probably channel my energy into a different activity/ministry. I believe that lIfe is too short to get upset about stuff like this.

Fair enough....but you didn't ignore this thread...[;)]

And I'm not quite sure how that's relevant other than to point out people still don't know how to frame a preference vs a dogmatic statement...

You're right....I should have the personality that just lets all of the badly phrased comments go by and not even read them....but I'm not that way...what can I say? I think it's entirely reasonable to ask grown adults to act like grown adults.

Don't you?

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135254#Comment_135254

Unfortunately for the analogy, when I bought my new theoretical car, it came with with a disclosure that my GPS, DVD and CD functions were not currently available. But it also stated that I would get these features at no additional cost when they were available.

Exactly.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135254#Comment_135254

????????????????????

I don't get it.... OK so your new theoretical car came with a disclosure, well the original disclosure time is now been pushed back an additional 3 months....

So now I get accused of being fallacious and inflammatory... I am now officially done with Logos' Forums and to think this is from one of the people chosen as a moderator....

Ward Walker

...We are NOT just championing L4 like a bunch of blind unthinking drones programmed by "the man"...ok?

...

Yeah...stick it to the man: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3N7E1ReGzc&feature=related

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135247#Comment_135247

If I may add a little illustration as most of us preachers enjoy using....

To avoid frustration with the complaints (my smart tags, sermon file, printing ones included)

Frank, brother....Martha is right...

It's not your individual frustrations I'm trying to address...heck...I also have a list of things that I'm waiting for Logos to deliver!

Logos, as good as it is for me today...isn't what I want it to be in the end...(can you say sentence diagrammer?)

That wasn't the issue AT ALL....it was how everyone's desire for their favorite feature is framed in a sentence...

See the difference?

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135256#Comment_135256

I think it's entirely reasonable to ask grown adults to act like grown adults.

Don't you?

Unfortunately most of the flaming has been by "moderators" prime example in this thread, try to have some fun with an illustration and get the fallacious & inflammatory accusations thrown at me....

I've always believed that leaders pave the way, well if "we" want the flame wars to stop maybe it should start with the moderators who have been doing most of it!

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135258#Comment_135258

So now I get accused of being fallacious and inflammatory... I am now officially done with Logos' Forums and to think this is from one of the people chosen as a moderator....

Frank...please don't leave...just cool off and think about what I said in my last post...ok?

PS: Martha is not a moderator...she's an MVP. She's just here, like you, to have fellowship and get the most out of her software...we are all her for that purpose...ok?

I realize that you're frustrated, but don't leave....ok?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135261#Comment_135261

I've always believed that leaders pave the way, well if "we" want the flame wars to stop maybe it should start with the moderators who have been doing most of it!

I agree with you and apologize for wording the post in a way that made you feel involved in a flame war. My intent was to illustrate how comments could put others in a double-bind. On one hand we do not wish to add to the controversy; on the other hand, we are asked to self-police the forums. I mistakenly believed that the first portion of my post showing the fallacy of the analogy was sufficient background for calling it fallacious.

Garrett Ho

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135262#Comment_135262

it is unfortunate that the discussion has broken down; I thought the first post was spot-on.

By the way, I think Frank may have been referring to MJ.

edit: whoops, typo

DHG

those who are negative (and positive for that matter), would phrase their likes and dislikes in that way...then I'm sure that a lot of the Logos Denominations would vanish....we'd all just be stating what we prefer, and not what's a gem or a piece of garbage.

Alternate solution. We could also grow some thicker skin and not work ourselves into a tizzy when others state their opinions using strong, decisive, or even unfriendly language...

Paul Golder

L4 has it's fans and detracters

This has me pondering. From a sociological perspective, why do you think people have become so vehement in their dogmatic pronouncements, in recent years?

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135271#Comment_135271

Alternate solution. We could also grow some thicker skin and not work ourselves into a tizzy when others state their opinions using strong, decisive, or even unfriendly language...

DHG,

did you actually read what I wrote?

It's not the "colorful metaphors" that I'm objecting to...

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135272#Comment_135272

This has me pondering. From a sociological perspective, why do you think people have become so vehement in their dogmatic pronouncements, in recent years?

Paul,

I don't know. Really I don't.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135272#Comment_135272

From a sociological perspective, why do you think people have become so vehement in their dogmatic pronouncements, in recent years?

Remember that I am speaking outside of my expertise and off-the top of my head, but my first guess would be that the world is changing so rapidly that many people are insecurity about their position in the future. So they hold on tight to what they have to retain a sense of the security. And their insecurity they focus on some other group they perceive as possibly dislodging/surpassing them from the current status.

Fernando A Gonzalez

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135272#Comment_135272

This has me pondering. From a sociological perspective, why do you think people have become so vehement in their dogmatic pronouncements, in recent years?

I don't know either, but I think it has to do with anonymity. Just see how most of us use avatars instead of real pictures... Oh no , I don't want to pick a fight regarding privacy issues...

DHG

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135273#Comment_135273

Alternate solution. We could also grow some thicker skin and not work ourselves into a tizzy when others state their opinions using strong, decisive, or even unfriendly language...

DHG,

did you actually read what I wrote?

It's not the "colorful metaphors" that I'm objecting to...

Yes. If I understood it correctly, you prefer that we use less dogmatic language when discussing our likes and dislikes, right? Instead of "this is a piece of junk!", you prefer, "this software simply doesn't fit my chosen lifestyle at the present time."

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135277#Comment_135277

Yes. If I understood it correctly, you prefer that we use less dogmatic language when discussing our likes and dislikes, right? Instead of "this is a piece of junk!", you prefer, "this software simply doesn't fit my chosen lifestyle at the present time."

DHG,

Ok...fair enough...I wasn't as clear as I should have been.

I'm ok with the word garbage...but that's a personal preference...so...this sentence is would be fine in my mind:

"for the way I work and my own preference, L4 compared to L3 is garbage! I really like L3 better!"

I'm down with that. [;)] I don't agree with your preference, but I understand that it's just. not your cup o tea....

Is that more clear? Possibly that came out in a later comment.

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135275#Comment_135275

I don't know either, but I think it
has to do with anonymity. Just see how most of us use avatars instead
of real pictures... Oh no , I don't want to pick a fight regarding
privacy issues...

I would agree that anonymity definitely makes it easier. As accountability is diminished, so goes consequences as well.

Remember that I am speaking outside of my
expertise and off-the top of my head, but my first guess would be that
the world is changing so rapidly that many people are insecurity about
their position in the future. So they hold on tight to what they have to
retain a sense of the security. And their insecurity they focus on some
other group they perceive as possibly dislodging/surpassing them from
the current status.

Do you think that a sense of entitlement could be a contributing factor?

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135284#Comment_135284

Do you think that a sense of entitlement could be a contributing factor?

Most definitely.

I've had that word pop into my head many times while reading some of these threads.

but of course...that's just my opinion [;)]

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135255#Comment_135255

If you missed it, you can still get one...

Very good Rosie [:D]

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135239#Comment_135239

as Clinton suggested. Sometimes a gentle word turns away anger in such cases, but if not, then best to leave the person alone to steam in their own juices. Anything other than that will just turn it into a bigger deal than it is.

I've stated this more than once about myself...this is something that i really need to learn more of.

alas...I wish i had the "roll-back-off" ability of some here....I'll keep working on it.,

DHG

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135281#Comment_135281

I'm down with that. I don't agree with your preference, but I understand that it's just. not your cup o tea....

Is that more clear? Possibly that came out in a later comment.

Crystal clear.

James Ng

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135286#Comment_135286

Do you think that a sense of entitlement could be a contributing factor?

Most definitely.

I've had that word pop into my head many times while reading some of these threads.

but of course...that's just my opinion

I think that difference in perception is part of the problem. One side thinks the other is making unreasonable demands and the other side views it as asking for features or improvements or a better way to do things. It depends on which side of the specific topic you're on but it does seem to ultimately degenerate into something along those lines unfortunately.

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135286#Comment_135286

Do you think that a sense of entitlement could be a contributing factor?

Most definitely.

I've had that word pop into my head many times while reading some of these threads.

but of course...that's just my opinion

I am reminded of two social network posts, by the same friend, within 24 hours:

"Yea! The no smoking law passed. Now I can go to the club, and the owner won't be allowed to let people smoke"

"I can't believe they made texting while driving illegal. Who are they to tell me what I can't do?"

(emphasis added)

Clinton Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135256#Comment_135256

Clinton, that was my phrase....the intent was to show the difference between a dogmatic derogetory statement,

This is probably what drove me to respond to your post. Specific bad behaviour should be addressed to the specific person behaving badly, not as a warning canon shot across the bow of all those who feel let down by the / missing features/lack of speed/. It seems to me that this nature of a post will stop those who are less bold from raising an issue, or providing a brilliant solution (you know, like I always do [;)]) because they are afraid of the reaction they will get.

Fair enough....but you didn't ignore this thread...

I'm addressing a sane person who has stated a perceived problem, not the rantings of a maniac, so this is a #1 from my list.

Yes, I think we should behave as adults, but I do not think people are as much out of line as you do.

Finally, most of what is posted here is subjective, so unless someone is reporting a bug, or stating an obvious fact, it will be a subjective opinion and maybe another suggestion would be to mentally insert the words "in my opinion" when reading most postings.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135295#Comment_135295

.this is something that i really need to learn more of.

Yeah, the trick we need to learn is not just to ignore the first 97 threads and the first 400 but at least up to 70 times 70. [;)]

What I struggle with is ignoring those that hijack a thread and leave a bad impression for the PO. I don't see any easy answer.

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135307#Comment_135307

What I struggle with is ignoring those that hijack a thread and leave a bad impression for the PO. I don't see any easy answer.

What would be a fun experiment is to give the PO's editorial control over there respective posts.

Even if it's just for a day or so, I'm sure the results would be quite telling.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135305#Comment_135305

another suggestion would be to mentally insert the words "in my opinion" when reading most postings

Good idea.

I know many don't like ongoing disagreement but on several occassions I have been won over by somebody who took the extra pains to explain to me what they really meant. I've noticed on my "sick days" or late night postings my content suffers. (Some of the others posting have similar track records. [:(] )

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135302#Comment_135302

One side thinks the other is making unreasonable demands and the other side views it as asking for features or improvements or a better way to do things. It depends on which side of the specific topic you're on but it does seem to ultimately degenerate into something along those lines unfortunately.

I think you are generally correct ... but what gets to me is questionable or false statements presented as truths repetitively in multiple threads. As an MVP I feel an obligation to at least skim all threads in which I might be able to aid a user. There is a point at which it starts seeming like a waste of time - the same issue is brought up on many threads with nothing new to say - and the real issue of the OP gets lost. If people remain polite and logical it is much easier. But sometimes it is so tempting to label posts as one of the byproducts of the bovine digestion process. [hey, my Dad raised cattle][:D] I once had a teacher who marked essays with where appropriate. So far I have successfully refrained. But I also feel sorry for the people who have the same concerns which they have expressed clearly and with strong supporting statements. Their posts get lost in the repetitive posts and they don't get the hearing they deserve.

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135311#Comment_135311

I suppose my caution on the issue would be twofold.

1) When negative comments need to be made make due diligence to relay them in a way that conveys the least emotional response. Forums and email just don't convey emotion well. Keep it as technical and bland as possible while still conveying your desired urgency for the issue. This is not an easy task so...

2) When tempted to respond to the emotional level of a post exhibit grace and respond only to the technical elements of the email recognizing the difficulty the poster faced in conveying his thoughts.

In all things grace. And when giving grace seems difficult solve the situation by giving more grace.

Mike Childs

Well said, Robert.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135305#Comment_135305

maybe another suggestion would be to mentally insert the words "in my opinion" when reading most postings.

As I said before Clinton...you are correct. It's part character defect on my part also....I'll keep that in mind Brother...thanks.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135314#Comment_135314

In all things grace. And when giving grace seems difficult solve the situation by giving more grace.

Like this?

Quote:
Given the fact that your count is much higher then mine and you posted a
post that had no other value then pointing out my posting to boost my
count, I hereby challenge you to a splinter/plank measuring contest.

[;)]