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Mikko Paavola | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2019 6:42 AM

David Ames:

Mikko Paavola:

2. Sharing personal books with other users

I assume that Mikko Paavola means books that he has written and not just books that he has made in to PBB as Bob stated that most PBB are copyrighted materials.   https://community.logos.com/forums/p/126859/848584.aspx#848584 

Yes, definitely not copyrighted materials, but my own products, like Luther's Works Index file, etc., and Public Domain works, like old books and Bible translations in Finnish language, etc.

Faithlife Connect + several Base Packages + Luther's Works, etc.
Lenovo ThinkPad Yoga 260, Win 10 Pro, Intel Core i7-6500U, 16GB RAM, 256GB SSD, Intel HD Graphics 520.
iPhone 7 Plus.

Posts 1998
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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2019 9:07 AM

I would like to see ePub supported, but that can be worked around. I chose syncing to mobile since there’s no workaround for that and it is crucial to the book reading experience. 

Posts 980
JohnB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2019 10:01 AM

David Ames:
Now that I have spent a few more minutes thinking about this PBB in Logos is a very powerful tool for those denominations that Logos gives little active support.  Logos has given some support to SDA and Orthodox but look at the lack of activity on their forums. 

I agree wholeheartedly. I am confident that logos would sell a wider range if there was a demand for them. Logos cannot afford to subsidise low selling denominations.

Posts 980
JohnB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2019 10:06 AM

Although I voted for uploading to Mobile platforms I keep wondering if I should have gone for better tagging for maps etc as a previous poster mentioned.

What I do now is the upload PPB's in epub format so I can read them there.

One never knows, I might get an invitation for a chat! 

Posts 123
Chris Belmonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 11 2019 11:25 AM

JohnB:

Although I voted for uploading to Mobile platforms I keep wondering if I should have gone for better tagging for maps etc as a previous poster mentioned.

What I do now is the upload PPB's in epub format so I can read them there.

One never knows, I might get an invitation for a chat! 

I did not know epubs could be uploaded. I also voted in the survey. If they are going to do this, I would hope (and I know this is kind of competing against themselves to some extent), have some automatic tagging for books they already keep on their system. Through great effort I've gotten two base packages, Academic Essentials, and Orthodox Starter. It was very difficult to get them because I had to beg friends and family for the funds because as I've stated I'm crippled and always broke. For me, that is a LOT of money. So I'm not simply trying to get "free" stuff. I'm invested into this software. But it's largely unaffordable. I kind of have my own "ministry" in that it's 2-3 people, depending on how they could be classified. I'll add more people as I meet them. But that being said, I cannot afford a feature upgrade at all, and it's very fortunate I've been able to get what I have. I am asking that if I have an ebook which is already in my library, for Logos to be willing to have that eBook be automatically integrated (not owned, but maybe "access".) I ask because it's impossible for me to afford much especially multi volume sets like the New American Commentary or Charlesworth's Pseudepigrapha. I realize they won't, and probably CAN'T do it, but a man can dream. Even bronze and maybe some silver packages (silver is very likely a bridge too far) doesn't contain commentaries of the scholarly type. My friends and I focus less on "life coach" style stuff, and more something resembling scholarly study. I do have a worthless BA in History but I'll never be able to pursue graduate due to cost.

(Also, I'm not Orthodox, but I have Orthodox sympathies, and it came with all volumes of the Church Fathers. 'Protestants' could learn a lot from Orthodox Christianity, just discard veneration, and wilder theology. An argument can be made for intercessory prayer (definitely not veneration), but it's weak in my opinion.)

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 11 2019 2:11 PM

Chris Belmonte:
I did not know epubs could be uploaded.

They can't be. He means that he exports his .docx files into ePub so that he can use them eReader devices. 

Currently the only way to import outside material is through Microsoft .docx file format. There is a legality question about converting books from one format into another. (In some countries it is legal, in others perhaps not). 

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Posts 123
Chris Belmonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 11 2019 2:13 PM

Were I dictator for an hour I'd abolish copyright. If I were for a dicator for a week I'd change it to a very tiny licensing fee allowing for free use.

Posts 2405
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 11 2019 3:05 PM

Chris Belmonte:

Were I dictator for an hour I'd abolish copyright. 

If you were dictator for an hour and abolished copyright then no more books would be written as no one could make money writing books.

One church came up with a fantastic method of getting its books published world wide.  All they did was put the publishing rights into the hands of the local district churches. Works great for hard copy books - buy from a local branch.  Then along came epub.  Whoops can only be used inside the area of the local district church that granted the rights!  [[that is a brief summary of some of the history of some of the problem]]

Posts 884
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 11 2019 3:21 PM

Chris Belmonte:
I am asking that if I have an ebook which is already in my library, for Logos to be willing to have that eBook be automatically integrated (not owned, but maybe "access".)

What you request seems to be similar in how Apple Music match your own music library to give you cloud access. Apple can do it, because they have huge bargaining power (and even theirs sometimes is not enough and drag into multi-years negotiations.)

Also, in the entertainment industry, they have precedent for this kind of idea, e.g. UltraViolet (soon to be dead), MovieAnywhere, that one owns a license to access a movie anywhere, regardless of platforms.

But something like this is very difficult for Logos for at least 2 reasons.

  1. Licensing. Note that in the Movie case, those that start the idea are initiated from the license holders. i.e. Logos have no say in this unless the publishers want this happened.
  2. Investments in integrations into the platform. Again, in the Movie/Music case, the service provider doesn't do much except for providing computation resources (including transcoding, hosting, etc.), but not much manual work requiring manpower is needed. But we all know that so called "Logos edition" is a premium that requires a lot of manpower, while the resource they sell generally is similar to their competitor's offerings. The worst case scenario is something published in Amazon Kindle format, and sell at a loss (not uncommon from Amazon), and then people match that license in Logos. Then they don't gain a dime but lost on the resources put into making it available. Stuffs from non-Logos edition do not have this problem however.

Chris Belmonte:
It was very difficult to get them because I had to beg friends and family for the funds because as I've stated I'm crippled and always broke. For me, that is a LOT of money. So I'm not simply trying to get "free" stuff.

Buying resources from Logos can be very expensive. And we need to understand Logos' intended market here. It is really just not for the poor, period. That said, Logos has done a lot of things making something affordable to poor people at the price of free. I won't go much into the business model behind those Lexham free resources, but it is quite a genius one. And those resources are quite good, especially at the price of free. Without Logos' contribution, free resources either means public domain kind of stuffs, free but internet access only copyrighted Bibles, or some occasional generous offers (such as the free ESV Global Study Bible, which I think is not as good a resource as the Faithlife Study Bible.

Logos is more like Apple in the aspect that bringing premium stuffs (a.k.a. no compromise kind of stuffs) affordable for the masses. People often complain how expensive a Mac (or iDevice) is, but in reality if one want to find a counterpart that matches the spec and also the material put into it (like the quality of the panel, aluminum finish rather than plastic, etc.), it is the cheapest one. The same is true in Logos, yes the price isn't cheap in any standard, but it is usually more, often much more, than the competitions (including buying separately. i.e. packaged deal is so great.)

Now I don't know you in person (if you want to we could start to chat somewhere, say in the Faithlife social network.) But I've been very poor, and I know what it was like to have absolutely no money to invest in any resources at all. In the beginning of being a Christian, all my Christian resources are obtained for free. Bible gifted from the Church; spiritual books by others, many of them are from when I got baptized; a study Bible gifted by my uncle who was a pastor, etc. Yes, the quality of most of those stuffs cannot compare to what I'm using right now in Logos. But, that's an environment God put me in, and He has provided all I needed.

(Or we can imagine we are pushed back a century, now we don't have Logos, most multi-volume commentaries are not affordable to most people including us, isn't what we have all sufficient already?)

If your situation is as bad as I might have understood form your posts and wordings, my humble advice to you is stop begging others for the funds. You might eventually get them. But for the meanwhile it seems there's better use of those funds. (At the very least, save it for the future!) But again, the usual disclaimer that I don't know you personally, so I might be wrong. But I hope that at least you're open to this different opinion to think through what you really need right now.

God bless.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 11 2019 6:33 PM

Chris Belmonte:
Were I dictator for an hour I'd abolish copyright.

1 Timothy 5:18

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Posts 123
Chris Belmonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 11 2019 7:53 PM

JT (alabama24):

Chris Belmonte:
Were I dictator for an hour I'd abolish copyright.

1 Timothy 5:18

I agree, the laborer does deserve his wages. But our copyright system is a disaster and predatory. It needs reform not abolition. However if I only had an hour i'd do with it what I could. It's so bad abolishing it would be better despite that not being good.

Posts 2405
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 4:49 AM

Chris Belmonte:

I agree, the laborer does deserve his wages. But our copyright system is a disaster and predatory. It needs reform not abolition. However if I only had an hour i'd do with it what I could. It's so bad abolishing it would be better despite that not being good.

Currently the author has all rights for a given period of time. Then the work goes into the public domain. [[What is that time? 75 years?]]

Before about 1900 it was a free for all. And Yes, what works for dead tree printing lacks a few things in the ePub world.  

What changes would you make?  

Posts 123
Chris Belmonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 4:57 AM

David Ames:

Chris Belmonte:

I agree, the laborer does deserve his wages. But our copyright system is a disaster and predatory. It needs reform not abolition. However if I only had an hour i'd do with it what I could. It's so bad abolishing it would be better despite that not being good.

Currently the author has all rights for a given period of time. Then the work goes into the public domain. [[What is that time? 75 years?]]

Before about 1900 it was a free for all. And Yes, what works for dead tree printing lacks a few things in the ePub world.  

What changes would you make?  


DMCA is completely repealed. All copyright law is scrapped. In place of that, anyone who wants to produce derivative works, modify, or sell something, this applies to anything, has to pay an extremely tiny license fee to the original creator or rights holder for x number of years. This doesn't effect the price of something. The price is whatever someone wants to set it as. If you're selling someone else's invention, you're free to do so, provided you pay the license fee. Say 1% of net profits or something. No one can be sued or go to jail for distributing a work or invention for free either. As long as they aren't selling it, they can do what they want. I know almost everyone here is going to disagree with me on this position. Property must be scarce to be property. If it's non-scarce it's by definition not property. Telling someone they cannot copy something is the same as stealing from them, because you're either transferring ownership of their physical property to the rights holder, or regulating what someone is allowed to do with their own physical property. If I buy a DVD disk, don't tell me I can't do what I want with it.

Posts 2405
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 5:19 AM

Chris Belmonte:

No one can be sued or go to jail for distributing a work or invention for free either. As long as they aren't selling it, they can do what they want. I know almost everyone here is going to disagree with me on this position

Yes, we are going to disagree.  If I give away a copy of a book you wrote I am stealing from you the royalty fee that you would have gotten from the sale of that book.  

Chris Belmonte:

Telling someone they cannot copy something is the same as stealing from them, because you're either transferring ownership of their physical property to the rights holder, or regulating what someone is allowed to do with their own physical property. If I buy a DVD disk, don't tell me I can't do what I want with it.

You can do whatever you want to a DVD that you own.  BUT under current copyright laws you own the physical DVD but not the rights to the contents of the DVD. You, under current copyright law, only bought the rights to play that DVD,  You can give it away but you can not keep a copy of the contents after giving the physical part to someone else as you do not own the contents. (under current copyright laws)

When you speak of changing the copyrights laws put yourself in place of an author.  You spend 10 years of your life writing a book.  You sell one copy.  The person that buys that one copy makes 10,000,000 copies and gives them all away.  You get nothing for your work.  Now how do you feel about copyright laws?  [[Book, Music CD, App,  etc.  Free is nice but we need to pay a fair wage to the producer.  How is the Question - Do we give the author 75 years to make his money or cut him off when he has made $250,000?  When do we end the authors rights?]]

Posts 123
Chris Belmonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 5:46 AM

If that's stealing its still also stealing to tell someone they can't use their own property as they see fit, as a result, if they are both stealing then no one is stealing. My opposition to regulation on copying is motivated by political principles, not scripture. Please don't get mad at me for not referring to scripture on this. There was no such thing as nonscarcity during those times. As a result, you can't quote scripture to try to address it. No one ever needed permission to copy or translate the Bible, and that was a seriously taxing labor. And if we count the Bible as a special case exempt, then I would say in that that should also apply to any and all material which is needed (and that includes extremely expensive academic material and even non-Christian material like translations and analyses of ancient texts, say Ugarit) for understanding our faith in an era where like never before do we need extremely educated Christians, an army of them, to defend and spread the Gospel.

It was only in the increasingly secular and unChristian "enlightenment" period that the concept of intellectual property wormed it's way into both thought and any significant law.

Who does copyright harm the most? It primarily effects people who believe IP is legitimate and in this case case, people who want to learn.

For a license,maybe the duration of that persons' life if he or she dies early than x amount of years after that to his/her kin. 

Posts 2405
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 3:04 PM

"Please don't get mad at me"   To the best of my knowledge no one is mad at you.

Posts 884
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 8:53 PM

Chris Belmonte:
If that's stealing its still also stealing to tell someone they can't use their own property as they see fit

You have a very serious misunderstanding on who own the property then.

Another way to see it is this, for the reason you despise free resources, if copyright works like you want it to work, most if not all resources in the world will have the similar kind of quality of those free resources you despise. And in that imaginary world, there's someone like you complaining why people for the sake of the Lord don't devote more of their time and effort to provide better resources.

The world is what it is, not that anyone might like it. But shouldn't we be submissive to it, to God?

Or not that one can't be complaining. But why complain if it is not constructive? You and I or anyone reading the forum here cannot (has no authority nor the ability nor the wisdom to) change the situation.

Also, the world is often not as simple as one might think (think how the current U.S. president think about how the world works.) Yes, there are always problems in the world. But there is often if not always no simple solution. Often time when one think there's a simple solution (think US president again), either he's deceptive or deceived.

Anyway, let's not digress anymore and back to the main topic of this thread.

Posts 123
Chris Belmonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2019 6:54 AM

I'M deleting my comments here because they aren't relevant to this thread. I got it mixed up with another thread.

I cannot figure out how to PM you so I'm just dropping it.

Posts 123
Chris Belmonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2019 6:56 AM

Oh it seems I've gotten two different threads mixed up! I thought this was the "real world costs" thread!

Posts 884
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2019 5:04 PM

Chris Belmonte:

Kyle, I realize you're right that my comments are largely not constructive. I don't think I'm misunderstanding property. I'm drawing from political philosophy (which is actually not leftist, it's maybe libertarian of some kind) which I suspect no one here is familiar with. I don't "despise" free resources. I'm saying that they are extremely antiquated. I have public domain works in mind, NOT the Faithlife study Bible or the Lexham English Bible. Those ARE very useful. I'm saying the push back against our faith is so strong, we need to have as many people as possible having access to resources which unfortunately are expensive. As for property, it's not a misunderstanding. IP law makes it so that someone who owns paper and prints on it, or someone who has disks and burns them, either ownership of that paper and disks are transferred to an IP owner, or of the person doing the copying is committing an offence which could get him sued or jailed. That is theft because it's taking away access to someone's own property.

I'm a lot better off regarding anger than I used to be, and I did not mean to rustle peoples jimmies though I realize I probably did. I've failed to distinguish between general academic publishers, IP, publishers who's material is on Logos, and so forth, which is causing people to misunderstand me.

1. most academic works are funded by tax dollars through grants, tuition loans and grants, directly and indirectly. This does NOT apply to a lot, and probably MOST of the content on Logos.

2. I'm angry that it's legal for these publishers, most of whom do not have content on Logos, are permitted to charge exorbitant fees to access their content which is publicly funded anyway.

3. Christian publishers I believe should want everyone to have access to academic material to defend the faith, at a bare minimum make it inexpensive, not hundreds of dollars for two volumes of something like the Pseudepigrapha edited by James Charlesworth. I use this as an example because it's up to date, and not antiquated. But these publishers do not do that, and do not provide some means of access even without giving ownership.

4. most of my complaints volume wise, are related to the general situation and publishers who do not have content on Logos. However, look at the the outrageous tuition prices at seminaries!

5. I've spent actual money on Logos. A friend bought me Orthodox Starter, and I bought Academic Essentials. 100 dollars for me, is more like 1000 dollars, because I have no means of my own, and I cannot work. I'm unhappy that Logos "can't" do anything at all for me. They don't say "we're working on a way to get some publishers to allow free access." all it is is we "can't." I'm really sorry about that. 90% off something which publishers sell to Logos at 3000, is still 300 dollars. Not affordable.

Is it wrong of me to complain? that's what this thread was about. I felt I could post my misgivings here. As a final note, I realize my definition of what is "necessary" is different from others. I've already made the argument that our faith is under such constant assault, and skilled, educated assault, by intellectual con-artists such as Bart Erhman and an entire army of similarly minded frauds, that the believer's need exceeds what it has in the past and requires much more now.

I hear you pain and learnt that you just posted to a wrong thread unintentsonally.

I feel the same pain to a certain extent. There’s a long story but in short some big shot Chinese christian who published a lot of his work (Chinese bible translation, commentary, hymnals) abused his power in the churches and decided to have “full control“ on our church. If one does not comply, they aren’t going to sell us any resources. Of course our church didn’t comply. And they even made our hymn book illegal (by copyright infringement) so that we lost our hymn book, many of them translated (from English) by a brother from our church, but work under the “company” he controlled.

We can get angry about it, and many did. But there’s no solution. Unlike in the situation you described, money is the solution (I fully understand not everyone has the money but in principle solution exists.) There’s no way we can legally obtained anything from them, not even keeping what we already had. And back then illegally obtaining it wasn’t even possible (not that one should, but I’m emphasizing there’s no way even legally.)

But in the end, we’ve found out we don’t need them at all. If they don’t provide, so be it. We “discovered” sola scriptura and later produced our own hymn book.

[When I said "we", I wasn't involved but "we" as the church I attended in general, because I wasn't in the church when these happened. However I am still one suffered from no access to those resources. And after learning that church history one can't help but feel bitter.]

Also, the same can be said for many non-English speaking Christians. They are blocked from most of the good resources not by money but by language barrier, because translated works at least in Chinese are scarce. Not to mention that many Chinese Christians in the mainland China can't even afford paying USD 100 for anything, and they might not even have access to Logos free resources due to internet censorship. (Also try to search what happens to Chinese Christians in Mainland China right now. Matter too sensitive to mention it here.)

The Lord will provides. That's true. But that doesn't mean He will provide the money / access / etc. for one to get the resources. Grace is all sufficient even if we don't have access to those resources. Especially in the English and/or uncensored internet world that many free seminary-level online training/courses exist (outside Logos of course.)

By the way, in the academia, something called "open access" is an ongoing trend. Also in the Scientific computing world, open source, reproducibility, etc. is very common. We can expect all these will becomes standards in the future. So I'm a bit surprised the Christian academic are still quite stone aged in this regards. As a scientists/researchers, from my University's library subscription, I've access to most if not all resources I need in research, books (many of them downloadable), research papers, etc. But it seems the same isn't true in the Christian academic world. From the way they sell bundles, even journals bundles, it seems it is very common for the Christians to pay it themselves. So I'm not saying it is not broken, but it is what it is.

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