Payment plan real world costs

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 8 2019 11:32 AM

Ah, you're talking about APR. I understand now. Thank you, Mike and Denise!

Yikes, at that rate!

Two things to note about FL payment plans.

  1. You can pay off your balance early without any penalty, saving yourself any remaining monthly service fees.
  2. You can combine payment plans, to avoid paying more than one service fee per month.
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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 8 2019 12:02 PM

Mike Pettit:

In the UK this model of charging would be considered unethical, but i get the impression that it is not seen as such in the USA.

The moral of the story is do not use a payment plan unless you understand the net cash-flows. 

 

Yes, understand the cass-flows! 

On many bills [here in the US] there is a monthly customer change just for being a customer, offen in the $5 range. In the days of doing it all by snail mail it cost that much to: print the bill, put the bill in an envelope, mail the bill, receive the payment, and record the payment. 

So, when they started this, Logos just added a monthly customer charge to the bill.  And Yes, it is a high interest rate.  My electric customer charge is 10% of my electric bill [for 180 kWh].   

Posts 123
Chris Belmonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 11 2019 2:37 PM

Denise:

Mark Widrick:
The email I received from Sales asked if I wanted to upgrade but never intimated that the Basic version was available to existing customers

There's two mysteries that swirl around Faithlife.

1. They really can not communicate. For years, some sincerely believed that it was to save money, or concentrate on the software. But after observing them for a decade-plus, the general conclusion surrounds a corporate policy. More talk = more trouble.

2. They play Christian-company, but the gloves come off in marketing. I laughed at your email experience. That's typical. I quickly thought about my own experience last week evaluating March Madness ... what is an actual sale, and what is a Faithlife sale. 

The irony, in both instances, is that neither are good business. My other other advertisers constantly highlight anything free, or a real sale. They want my car in their parking lot. And I dutifully oblige ... I'm no dummy. But with Logos, everything has to be carefully checked. 



Denise I don't want to badmouth Logos. Their software is really good. Their customer support does their best to help you. (At least they did with me). 
But I have a genuine complaint about Logos, though to be fair, I assume it's the same with Accordance or any other. The prices are outrageous. Yes I understand they sell a lot of books to you at 90% or more off of each. But that's still too expensive for most people. Furthermore, 200-500 dollar feature-sets feel like robbery to me. That's just not fair. I'm not saying it's robbery. I'm saying it feels very userious. I don't understand why publishers cannot provide free access to more content when they are Christian. Spreading knowledge of the faith, and being able to defend it in our era, is very difficult, and all of these tools and resources are becoming increasingly necessary. There is no good free software, and public domain works and translations are largely useless today. Logos is "unable" to provide me any kind of complimentary access to anything at all other than their basic base packages, which aren't very good. I hear "unable" a lot. I've repeatedly asked them for access to more content as my claims of poverty are true. No I'm not impoverished. But my family is struggling to survive and I am crippled. I will likely die if I do not get monthly infusions at the hospital. Thankfully my crap insurance through social security disability pays for it. it's to the tune of 7 grand a month. All I want to be able to to is study the Bible on a serious, scholarly level. I don't care about life advice. I don't have the luxury of buying nice things, or rather, very rarely. Academic publishers in general, ARE thieves. They rob universities and the public of both money and knowledge.

We are "unable," we "can't." I acknowledge the truth of this. But why won't any corporations/companies try to change things for the masses? Please don't take me as a communist. I'm very far from that. We "can't" should be "we're working on a way to provide a lot (preferably ALL of it) of serious scholarship to us for free. The 22nd I get my next infusion, but faithlife connect essentials runs out on the 17th for me and its very unlikely i'll be able to renew it. So I won't be watching anything from faithlife at the hospital.

I'm 30 now. I'm likely to have no future unless my middle sister can support me, and my youngest sister, who is severely autistic and has ptsd. I promise I'm telling the truth in all of what I'm saying. Who in sheol can afford 300 dollar sets of books like Charlesworth's pseudepigrapha or actually good commentaries like NAC? I cannot get a degree from Dallas Theological Seminary for their probably nearly complete resource collection.

No library will give me access to their databases. Neither will any university. There's an unbelievably massive trove of research which the public will never have access to, including stuff which is basically funded by tax dollars if its a public university.

It's this way: All of the tools and resources which matter for spreading and defending the faith are locked behind a paywall. We aren't talking cheap, we're talking completely unaffordable. I realize this has turned into a rant, but it's upsetting to me that Christian corporations do not act like actual Christians did in the first centuries, especially that since there's never been a time before this were we need an army of educated Christians. I mean seriously educated, not sunday school "here's how to be a nice boy" lessons.

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mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 11 2019 3:34 PM

Chris Belmonte:
I'm 30 now. I'm likely to have no future unless my middle sister can support me, and my youngest sister, who is severely autistic and has ptsd. I promise I'm telling the truth in all of what I'm saying. Who in sheol can afford 300 dollar sets of books like Charlesworth's pseudepigrapha or actually good commentaries like NAC? I cannot get a degree from Dallas Theological Seminary for their probably nearly complete resource collection.

Chris

Your post sort of hit a nerve for me since I got saved around the same age and wanted to get some schooling to serve my Lord. I managed to get a little bit but I never had the means to go to seminary. When I finally decided to do something about it, Logos looked a whole lot cheaper than seminary. After all, what do you do in seminary? You study books. What's in Logos? Books. In Logos, those books are often far cheaper than anywhere else especially in packages.

When I got my first Logos 4 package, I started with a payment plan. I could scarcely afford it. Right after getting it, I mentioned my decision to a friend. He paid for the whole package. And he kept right on helping me by paying for more resources. 

If God wants you to have resources in Logos, He will provide for you.

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

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Dave Thawley | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 11 2019 3:52 PM

I don't think 1 applies any more but 2 still does. Saying that after rereading bobs comments I personally don't mind. I like the flat fee structure rather than having an interest based structure. It does feel more christian and it does allow me to buy collections I couldn't possibly afford any other way. 

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Chris Belmonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 11 2019 4:35 PM

mab:

Chris Belmonte:
I'm 30 now. I'm likely to have no future unless my middle sister can support me, and my youngest sister, who is severely autistic and has ptsd. I promise I'm telling the truth in all of what I'm saying. Who in sheol can afford 300 dollar sets of books like Charlesworth's pseudepigrapha or actually good commentaries like NAC? I cannot get a degree from Dallas Theological Seminary for their probably nearly complete resource collection.

Chris

Your post sort of hit a nerve for me since I got saved around the same age and wanted to get some schooling to serve my Lord. I managed to get a little bit but I never had the means to go to seminary. When I finally decided to do something about it, Logos looked a whole lot cheaper than seminary. After all, what do you do in seminary? You study books. What's in Logos? Books. In Logos, those books are often far cheaper than anywhere else especially in packages.

When I got my first Logos 4 package, I started with a payment plan. I could scarcely afford it. Right after getting it, I mentioned my decision to a friend. He paid for the whole package. And he kept right on helping me by paying for more resources. 

If God wants you to have resources in Logos, He will provide for you.

I appreciate your feedback but I do not have a friend who can purchase me a large package. I do not share the attitude of "if God wants you to have". I don't mean to be rude, but that seems a rather strange statement to me. I'm NOT saying it is, but at first glance I took it as, maybe inappropriate in some way, I don't know. I don't think that's how it works. I'm not going to presume what God wants me to have. That sounds a little too close to prosperity preaching, though I realize it's not. I cannot afford a payment plan either. I have to beg friends for things, but I don't know anyone who would be willing to do that sadly. God wants me to serve him, that I know. I have been saved for a long while now, but over the recent years I've become much more serious about it. I may not live as long a life as the average person, and it's very possible a hurricane will nuke my house and I'll lose most of what I own. I wish I had someone to turn to for this, but I don't.. Part of my enjoyment in life, is doing research on scripture. I'm very thankful for Heiser's Naked Bible Podcast, for example. He keeps mentioning Logos, and it pains me to some extent. What I've used, is so very helpful. I've been writing lots of notes with the note tool recently.

I'm going to admit something here.. I do download books on the internet if I find them. I have to because I cannot afford them. But logos has plenty I can't find, and even ones I do find, I cannot use with logos' tools because they're not in my logos account. I would love nothing more than a large base package with the feature set but I don't imagine that will happen any time soon, if ever. I can study without it. But it makes it so much easier with it.

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 11 2019 6:32 PM

Chris Belmonte:

The prices are outrageous. Yes I understand they sell a lot of books to you at 90% or more off of each. But that's still too expensive for most people.

At $35 per volume a full Bible Commentary set in hard copy would cost $2310. 

At 90% off that would still be $231 for the digital copy.

But let’s go back to the good old days before Tablets, Smart Phones and even Computers.  Who would buy at full Bible Commentary set?  Not you nor me.  The only people with access to those sets would be Library Members where the Library could afford a set.  If the library had 1000 members the set would only cost $2.31 for each member.  The publishers set their prices to sell to libraries with 1000 or more members. 

Publishers are still setting prices at the per library price [$2310.00]. 

They give us a discount at 90% off [$231.00] and think that they are giving us a good deal. 

What we want is the per member price [$2.31] as that is what each user paid back in the dead tree library user days. [or 99.9% off] 

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Chris Belmonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 11 2019 7:50 PM

Those commentaries should never have been those prices to begin with. 
I feel a bit dumb as I'm not sure what you're talking about. The only library in my area is junk. As a result, I haven't used it since I was a child.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 1:31 AM

Chris Belmonte:
The only library in my area is junk

Where do you live that you library is not the portal into the inter-library loan system?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Chris Belmonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 3:08 AM

MJ. Smith:

Chris Belmonte:
The only library in my area is junk

Where do you live that you library is not the portal into the inter-library loan system?

I'll PM you that.

edit:

There's no private message option. I don't want to advertise my location. It wouldn't surprise me if it does have inter-library loan. I'm going to go ahead and go there and see what's changed. But I will say that I live in a dumpster town, with literal trash on the streets, including beer cans and bottles people throw practically into my yard, people who I don't particularly like and many of whom don't feel the need to converse in English. Just a few days ago there was another shooting incident down the street. It didn't used to be a dumpster town. It used to be mostly cow pasture. You could leave your car unlocked if you were feeling lazy. 
I CAN borrow from my former university's library if I pay them for a complimentary account, but I cannot use ILL much less the database. Libraries do not provide access to proquest dissertations, Jstor, etc, especially not from my own house.

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 4:56 AM

Chris Belmonte:

I feel a bit dumb as I'm not sure what you're talking about. 

A) You are not dumb!  B) Some private and school libraries with big $$$$$$. The ones that could afford to buy many $2000 sets of books. The ones that the publishers were selling those sets to before ePub came into being. [And no, I can not name any off the top of my head]  

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David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 11:04 AM

Chris Belmonte:
All I want to be able to to is study the Bible on a serious, scholarly level...Academic publishers in general, ARE thieves.

I will not presume your motives, but share 2 admonitions out of my experience and you can consider if they may relate to your situation or not.

1. Often what I WANT is not what I NEED. The Lord has promised to meet all my NEEDs according to His riches in glory. I frequently have to re-visit Scripture's teaching on contentment and submission to the will of God.

2. The Scholars who produce Academic works are worthy of their wages. This is both Old Covenant (Dt 25:4) and New Covenant (1 Tim 5:18) teaching. It is unreasonable for me to expect someone to labor to research, process ideas, write, edit and publish these resources for my consumption without receiving compensation.

I apologize in advance if this comes across as accusatory. That is NOT my intention! Having studied over 30 years in both informal and formal settings, I have come to conclude that spiritual formation of the student is a larger part of ministry preparation than cognitive transfer.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

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Chris Belmonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 11:38 AM

well all i need is shelter, food, and water. 

When i call them thieves, i'm primarily referring to publishers of content produced from public universities, not as much private. Yes i know the laborer is entitled to his wages,  but I do not believe the laborer is entitled to limit what I do with my property. This is not about the entitlement of pay, its about the userious costs.My  motivation is simple, I want easy access to extremely expensive content i cannot afford. I've never been better off in my life before regarding spiritual fulfillment because of both my study and improving my attitudes and making myself a better person.(This isn't soeterilogical). I'm not taking it as accusatory. It's very common for people of older generations to believe copyright is a good thing. My agenda is that i want academic publishers to stop being userious thieves who charge exorbidant fees for access to their databases. This goes for anything in general not merely Religious Studies. Most of them are funded directly or indirectly from the taxpayer. 

I don't need any of this content because I will not die without it. BUt I don't believe thats the point. Here's an idea, why can't proquest charge an individual 20 dollars to access their thesis/dissertation database for a year? Instead they charge hundreds to thousands of dollars. I consider that userious behavior, especially since they are double, triple, and quadruple dipping into federal funding, loans, grants, and so forth. 

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Chris Belmonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 11:42 AM

well it seems my response was flagged as spam i think due to my browser acting dumb with adblock on android. 

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Chris Belmonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 11:47 AM

my agenda is simple: i want to have access to content I cant afford and as much as everyone deserves the wages of their labor i cant pay the pricesrequired and mmight never be able to. Im saying especially academic publsihers feel the need to charge userious prices for stuff which is usually funded directly and indirectly by tax dollars. why cant proquest charge someone 20 dollars a year for complete access to their thesis and dissertation database instead of many hundreds to thousands of dollars?its de facto kept from the public.

i dont need anything but shelter, food, water, and my infusions. THats not the point.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 4:55 PM

Chris Belmonte:
I don't want to advertise my location. It wouldn't surprise me if it does have inter-library loan.

Sorry, I meant your location in a very general sense as I am familiar only with rural American access to library materials. But I am familiar with wanting access to materials in Tibetan that the one library in the nation that held the book did not have a librarian able to read the text sufficiently to find what you needed. No problem. We all knew what laundromat was owned by a Tibetan. We'd contact him and he'd go over to the library to copy what we needed. He assumed that anyone who knew he was the way to get the material probably really needed it. And, yes, the library belongs to a top-ten research university.

Chris Belmonte:
charge userious prices for stuff which is usually funded directly and indirectly by tax dollars.

The assumption of being funded by tax dollars is true only in some subjects, I suspect.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Chris Belmonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 5:31 PM

MJ. Smith:

Chris Belmonte:
I don't want to advertise my location. It wouldn't surprise me if it does have inter-library loan.

Sorry, I meant your location in a very general sense as I am familiar only with rural American access to library materials. But I am familiar with wanting access to materials in Tibetan that the one library in the nation that held the book did not have a librarian able to read the text sufficiently to find what you needed. No problem. We all knew what laundromat was owned by a Tibetan. We'd contact him and he'd go over to the library to copy what we needed. He assumed that anyone who knew he was the way to get the material probably really needed it. And, yes, the library belongs to a top-ten research university.

Chris Belmonte:
charge userious prices for stuff which is usually funded directly and indirectly by tax dollars.

The assumption of being funded by tax dollars is true only in some subjects, I suspect.

I went to the library. It's a joke. It's full of homeless drug addicts using computers and run entirely by feminist clucking hens. The selection is also useless. I'll check their online database tomorrow i think.
That's extremely interesting about that Tibetan guy and the library.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 7:36 PM

Chris Belmonte:
It's full of homeless drug addicts using computers and run entirely by feminist clucking hens.

Not sure how we got so far off-topic from payment plans, but if God can be so gracious, compassionate, merciful, loving, and powerful to save and deliver the worst of sinners who go on to share the good news of Jesus Christ, surely drug addicts and feminists are not a difficulty for Him.

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Fred Chapman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 12 2019 7:40 PM

PetahChristian:

Chris Belmonte:
It's full of homeless drug addicts using computers and run entirely by feminist clucking hens.

Not sure how we got so far off-topic from payment plans, but if God can be so gracious, compassionate, merciful, loving, and powerful to save and deliver the worst of sinners who go on to share the good news of Jesus Christ, surely drug addicts and feminists are not a difficulty for Him.

I agree. Jesus did hang out with sinners and tax collectors. At least one of them became a disciple.

That said, everything of value to the OP has probably already been said, so maybe this thread can fade into the archives

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Chris Belmonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 13 2019 6:58 AM

Fredc:

PetahChristian:

Chris Belmonte:
It's full of homeless drug addicts using computers and run entirely by feminist clucking hens.

Not sure how we got so far off-topic from payment plans, but if God can be so gracious, compassionate, merciful, loving, and powerful to save and deliver the worst of sinners who go on to share the good news of Jesus Christ, surely drug addicts and feminists are not a difficulty for Him.

I agree. Jesus did hang out with sinners and tax collectors. At least one of them became a disciple.

That said, everything of value to the OP has probably already been said, so maybe this thread can fade into the archives

Yes I already prayed for them. All I'm saying is that the library doesn't serve any purpose for me. Everyone seems to be misunderstanding me lately but that's probably my own fault, as I'm used to conversing with friends, many of whom are Christian, in ways where we already know the backgrounds of what we're saying. 

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