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Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 22 2019 2:17 AM

Mark Barnes:
Terry explicitly says he "made the rule up".

The making up is referring to calling any such software "the Program Which Must Not Be Named", not "promote or link to competitors".

If you go through that thread you know that people take that (not naming competitors) seriously. And I haven't done that since then.

Posts 240
Anthony Dowden | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 22 2019 6:27 AM

I don‘t see any competition with FL. You‘re talking about a company that have been unable to handle GDPR for almost 12 months now. Users in Europe have been to unable to get updates or even to be able to install on new hardware. I would think it very unlikely that they will pick up subscribers in Europe.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 22 2019 7:17 AM

Kolen Cheung:
But if one say company Y is going to provide something to compete to Logos/Faithlife in some way, then mentioning it is promoting their future service, luring people away from Logos.

I think the reason some people felt comfortable naming the competitor is because they don't provide that service yet. They may never do. It's hard to "promote" a product that doesn't exist. But it was a fine line, which is why not everyone disagreed. That's OK, so long as we all do it respectfully.

Kolen Cheung:
What I'm showing is the frustration of the non-uniform standard/culture about what's considered to within guidelines or not. And yes it means I'm hijacking my own thread, where hijacking is not banned at all by the forum guidelines.

Faithlife choose to give us guidelines instead of rules. The upside of this is that there's a fair amount of freedom, and hopefully people aren't looking over their shoulder all the time. The downside is that sometimes it's not 100% clear where the boundaries lie, and different people may sometimes have different perspectives. But personally I'd rather have the odd friendly disagreement than have Faithlife deleting posts the moment someone mentioned a competitor.

Posts 884
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 22 2019 1:03 PM

Anthony Dowden:

I don‘t see any competition with FL. You‘re talking about a company that have been unable to handle GDPR for almost 12 months now. Users in Europe have been to unable to get updates or even to be able to install on new hardware. I would think it very unlikely that they will pick up subscribers in Europe.

Please exercise logic, wether you deem it a worth competitor is entirely your subjective judgement. They are competitors in every sense.

Also, see the link Mark quoted above https://community.logos.com/forums/t/20261.aspx which explicitly defined them as one of the competitor.

Posts 884
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 22 2019 1:13 PM

Mark Barnes:
Faithlife choose to give us guidelines instead of rules. The upside of this is that there's a fair amount of freedom, and hopefully people aren't looking over their shoulder all the time. The downside is that sometimes it's not 100% clear where the boundaries lie, and different people may sometimes have different perspectives. But personally I'd rather have the odd friendly disagreement than have Faithlife deleting posts the moment someone mentioned a competitor.

I really would like to see this forum to really have such freedom and people can talk whatever they want to talk about (as long as it is not insulting others, i.e. as long as they are treating each other as human beings), but the complaint here is really some people start to volunteer and apply their own non-uniform, subjective interpretation of the guidelines to the others.

It is all fine when there's no police, but when there's some and there's no standard, that would only be chaos. Either we completely banned policing (so non-Faithlife staff cannot police any other people to any degree, they can only report abuse), or there are precise and concise guidelines such that there's no ambiguity for anyone to police.

Well, one can go to any of those "policing" posts, and what follows is almost always arguments albeit good intentions. An example would be person A made a joke, person B make a follow-up joke, person C make yet another and now someone start to police claiming it is not appropriate, and the whole thing turn into an argument about who's wrong first, etc. But in fact if the police didn't say anything, the joke would have probably stopped. (People would say there's no sense of humor when such joke is taken as offensive statements.)

By the way, personally I would prefer the abuse button. Give the authority back to the staffs to deal with this. If they don't think that's abuse, no one should police them to stop.

Posts 45
Darrell Tan | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 25 2019 3:02 AM

I mean, it's about purchasing power. For an analogy, a Starbucks latte is about 5 USD in the US. It's also about the same price in HK?

For subscription, e.g. monthly 9 USD is 70+ HKD, plus card fees. Would the latte or the subscription be perceived as equally affordable in HK?

As you say, you're fine as long as you can continue your subscription. Once you're out, you don't retain anything. You could see your sunk cost as helping to stabilize FL, I guess.

Anyway, for the current subscription tiers, the resources included aren't the exegetical tools I'd hope for.

Kolen Cheung:

Exchange rate is just converting one currency to another. Do you mean local, physical books are sold cheaper than in the U.S. according to local economy?

....

I also don't like subscriptions. If something happened, you can lose everything (under subscriptions.) But in that case one still got to keep what they already bought (or even sell them at loss in financial crisis.) Subscriptions stabilize companies (their future is financially more secured) but customers' future is getting less secured. However, in the case of something like Music subscription, it is financially infeasible for one to have access to such a huge library (almost the whole catalog, 50 million songs.) But for subscription one get to access all of them. So this is my hope that a certain subscription tier can exist for one to access the (almost) whole catalog in Logos.

Posts 884
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 25 2019 4:16 AM

For the record I don’t like subscriptions and I don’t subscribe much. (I actually have too few subscriptions to admit openly...)

I understand how the cultural difference in the US vs say HK can be different. In the US, people are paying a few hundred US dollars per month for cable TV, internet, and landline phone no. (My landlord paid over USD 300 a month), close to a hundred USD for cellular service. So imagine if there‘s a USD 50 thing that give you “Logos all access”, that would be pretty good deal. In fact the Verbum cloud has a USD 50 per month subscription tier that includes a lot of good stuffs (but not all access. So a Logos all access must be more expensive than that at least for now.)

So imagine even if the Logos all access is like $100 a month, and a certain cable TV service is of the same price. I would choose the former in a heartbeat (if I have to choose one, that is.)

If that becomes available, I probably would not subscribe, at least not every month. But I can see it as very affordable to some people to be able to access everything Logos offers (compare to buying everying, I don’t have a no. but guesstimating it would be close to USD100,000, ie on the order of 80 years if the price point is ~100/month.)

I think the point of a music subscription which gives one all access, or to a lesser extent (because of the more limited selection) Netflix movie subscription is to free oneself to choose something because of the extra cost of that choice. Choice becomes only a matter of need/want. Especially in the case of Logos, one might not know what they want! (Eg Facebook, timeline, etc.)

Now the next problem is to build a computer capable of running Logos with a all resources it has (on the order of 100,000. Just kidding.)

Posts 45
Darrell Tan | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 26 2019 8:04 PM

I'd compare costs to the Logos packages - I'm not doing full-time research, to use "all access" in a full way.

A $100/month subscription is about $1,000 a year (assuming current 2 months free).

For Diamond ($3,500), that's 3.5 years. For Collector’s ($10,800), it's about 11 years. 

A subscription is less attractive than gradually buying just what I need.

Posts 884
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 27 2019 4:35 AM

Darrell Tan:

I'd compare costs to the Logos packages - I'm not doing full-time research, to use "all access" in a full way.

A $100/month subscription is about $1,000 a year (assuming current 2 months free).

For Diamond ($3,500), that's 3.5 years. For Collector’s ($10,800), it's about 11 years. 

A subscription is less attractive than gradually buying just what I need.

That calculation is more about reflecting what kind of price point would make sense for a "subscription" of the Diamond package.

And I'm not convincing you or me to subscribe. What I'm saying is why there might be a potential market there.

Another question is if the market is big enough to make business sense. The recent advances in Movie/TV/Music subscription is to find the right package to maximize its cents. In the case of Music the sweet spot for the price point is enough to have "all-access" where excluded music is virtually non-existent. Movie less so, but is still sort of like all-access. TV/cable much less so (especially if sports is included), because even $100/month can't give one all-access to everything in the U.S. So in the entertainment industries, there are $10~100 price points with various packages. Then what would be the spectrum of price points for spiritual/religious/biblical industries? Logos' current offering touches $10~50 so at least to them this range is still viable. Can $100 be viable? How about $200? Say the next price point they want to hit is $100, how much resources can they throw at it to make it attractive enough? How close is "all-access" to this?

Posts 45
Darrell Tan | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 29 2019 8:43 AM

There's a different subscription that I just found out about, that is less than 10USD/mth, that includes commentaries such as the BECNT and NICNT. It won't be as good as a specialized Bible study software, but in terms of usefulness it's already more useful to me than any of the current Connect tiers... I guess it'll be YMMV, whether a set of resources is sufficient, or whether a truly all-in subscription would be practical.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 29 2019 9:16 AM

Darrell Tan:
There's a different subscription that I just found out about, that is less than 10USD/mth, that includes commentaries such as the BECNT and NICNT. It won't be as good as a specialized Bible study software, but in terms of usefulness it's already more useful to me than any of the current Connect tiers... I guess it'll be YMMV, whether a set of resources is sufficient, or whether a truly all-in subscription would be practical.

If we're thinking of the same service, it's a good option for books from Moody, Kregel, Baker and Eerdmans and a few others — but only if all you want to do is read, and you're not interested in searching and all the other tools that Logos provides.

Posts 45
Darrell Tan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 31 2019 9:24 AM

Agreed - the functionality Logos has does represent a significant amount of development, so I'm not expecting equivalent rates for dissimilar capabilities. However FL Connect currently doesn't really have attractive content.

That said, I'm content just buying individual items and slowly building up.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 31 2019 9:54 AM

Darrell Tan:
However FL Connect currently doesn't really have attractive content.

For the most part, "Faithlife Connect" isn't about content, but about tools

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 45
Darrell Tan | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 1 2019 7:31 AM

JT (alabama24):

For the most part, "Faithlife Connect" isn't about content, but about tools

Thats a new thought. I didn't get that impression from the Faithlife Connect web pages.

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