Ante Nicene Fathers?

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Posts 178
Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Mar 24 2019 8:20 PM

I have been interested in this work for quite some time, but have never taken the time to try to locate it—until I read it a source a work I was reading tonight.  I looked on Logos for this work, but want to make sure I am getting the right volumes.  I presume the link below is what I want, or am I missing something?

https://www.logos.com/product/33660/fathers-of-the-church-fathers-of-the-ante-nicene-era

Apologies for multiple recent thread—just wanting to ensure I am getting the right resources ๐Ÿ˜Š.

Thank you in advance.

Posts 1596
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 24 2019 8:34 PM

There are lots of different collections of various "fathers". The collection you link is almost certainly the largest collection of ante Nicene writings translated into English. I have not read all of them - or even most of them. But the volumes I have read from that series are quite readable and include some good basic notes to get you started on them.

But like all sets, some volumes are better than others. Perhaps if you can say what writing or what father you are most interested in someone can give more definite recommendations?

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

Posts 178
Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 24 2019 10:53 PM

Ken McGuire:

There are lots of different collections of various "fathers". The collection you link is almost certainly the largest collection of ante Nicene writings translated into English. I have not read all of them - or even most of them. But the volumes I have read from that series are quite readable and include some good basic notes to get you started on them.

But like all sets, some volumes are better than others. Perhaps if you can say what writing or what father you are most interested in someone can give more definite recommendations?

Thank you Ken.  I am interested in almost any early writers—such as Justin Martyr, Clement, Ignatius, Tertullian, etc.  

What got me thinking about this is that I read a quote tonight from Martyr in an apologetical work, and I would love to be able to pop over to my library and look it up for myself.

Admittedly, Patrisitics has not been one of my strong points, although I have read a great deal of their excerpts in other materials.

For example, I have read that Tertullian wrote quite harshly against Christian women adorning themselves immodestly, as well as ornamentation.  And, again, I would be interested to see if this is accurate (not that it would affect my doctrinal position, just curious).

Posts 1596
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 25 2019 6:00 AM

Looking closer I see a few sets that may interest you.

First off, there is the old "Schaff" - although he didn't edit the ante Nicenes... It is actually a decent collection, but it has a few problems. It is dated - unaware of the many textual discoveries since then. Clement gets a bit specific in how he talks about sex, and the Victorian editors decided to publish it in Latin instead of English in Strom. 3. In general, the English is a bit dated in that it is "Church English" which uses some archaisms then, let alone now. Some of the notes have quite an anti-Roman Catholic bias. In addition, it is missing a fair amount of Origen's exegetical work. And it gets quite spotty in the Nicene and Post Nicenes since it squeezes everybody but Augustine and Chrysostom into 14 volumes.

Then there is Fathers of the Church, which you linked. This probably the largest selection of pastristic writings in English, done largely by Roman Catholics in the USA since World War 2. The translations are quite readable, and the notes are short, unobtrusive, and generally quite helpful. The biggest writer missing to my eyes is Irenaeus, although some Desert Fathers would be nice too.

Probably the most annotated set is Ancient Christian Writers. In the print edition, I have seen notes that are over a page long in the endnotes, as they dissect where exactly a key phrase fits in the history of Christian thought. In general this edition goes into more detail in references to other writings. But the coverage is spotty. Interestingly, it has a quite good translation of the first three books of Irenaeus's Against Heresies. For some reason it does not seem to include the translation of Irenaeus's Proof of the Apostolic Preaching which is in the print set. It has a quite good edition of Justin Martyr's Apologies (really the 1st. The 2nd is basically a cover letter for the 1st) but it doesn't have the Dialogue with Trypho which is included in Fathers of the Church.

Other sets worth considering would be the volumes of Popular Patristics. Logos has put them out in five sets of ten volumes so far. This set doesn't try to be exhaustive or anything, but tries to put key writings in the hands of the church of today.

In addition the Classics of Western Spirituality has many volumes that can be of interest.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

Posts 3001
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 25 2019 3:29 PM

Puddin’:
Thank you Ken.  I am interested in almost any early writers—such as Justin Martyr, Clement, Ignatius, Tertullian, etc.  

The ANF set that you link is definitely a good one for your needs, although it lacks Irenaeus.

Puddin’:
For example, I have read that Tertullian wrote quite harshly against Christian women adorning themselves immodestly, as well as ornamentation.  And, again, I would be interested to see if this is accurate (not that it would affect my doctrinal position, just curious).

I believe you'll find what you're looking for here and (in a much older and less readable translation) here.

Posts 1003
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 25 2019 4:25 PM

Everything Ken says about Schaff is absolutely correct.  The two advantages are that it is relatively inexpensive, and is included in a number of the base packages. It lets you link to a usable translation of a good bit of patristic material without breaking the bank.  I got it years ago as part of a base package. This has helped provide a bit of a door into the church fathers for me.  As I've gotten more interested - and as I've had the money - I've been gradually buying more up-to-date resources for selected early writers. 

(There is also a Catholic edition.  The texts are the same, but it doesn't include some of the more anti-Catholic introductory material.) 

Posts 10030
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 25 2019 5:10 PM

Ken McGuire:

Looking closer I see a few sets that may interest you.

First off, there is the old "Schaff" - although he didn't edit the ante Nicenes... It is actually a decent collection, but it has a few problems. It is dated - unaware of the many textual discoveries since then. Clement gets a bit specific in how he talks about sex, and the Victorian editors decided to publish it in Latin instead of English in Strom. 3. In general, the English is a bit dated in that it is "Church English" which uses some archaisms then, let alone now. Some of the notes have quite an anti-Roman Catholic bias. In addition, it is missing a fair amount of Origen's exegetical work. And it gets quite spotty in the Nicene and Post Nicenes since it squeezes everybody but Augustine and Chrysostom into 14 volumes.

Then there is Fathers of the Church, which you linked. This probably the largest selection of pastristic writings in English, done largely by Roman Catholics in the USA since World War 2. The translations are quite readable, and the notes are short, unobtrusive, and generally quite helpful. The biggest writer missing to my eyes is Irenaeus, although some Desert Fathers would be nice too.

Probably the most annotated set is Ancient Christian Writers. In the print edition, I have seen notes that are over a page long in the endnotes, as they dissect where exactly a key phrase fits in the history of Christian thought. In general this edition goes into more detail in references to other writings. But the coverage is spotty. Interestingly, it has a quite good translation of the first three books of Irenaeus's Against Heresies. For some reason it does not seem to include the translation of Irenaeus's Proof of the Apostolic Preaching which is in the print set. It has a quite good edition of Justin Martyr's Apologies (really the 1st. The 2nd is basically a cover letter for the 1st) but it doesn't have the Dialogue with Trypho which is included in Fathers of the Church.

Other sets worth considering would be the volumes of Popular Patristics. Logos has put them out in five sets of ten volumes so far. This set doesn't try to be exhaustive or anything, but tries to put key writings in the hands of the church of today.

In addition the Classics of Western Spirituality has many volumes that can be of interest.

Thank you, Ken ... FOTC I discovered is broken up ... I was going to pick up Apostolic Fathers ... I already have it!. I wish ACW was broken up. It sounds quite good, from your description.

I agree with EastTenn ... Schaff, like Charles (pseudepigrapha) is still quite good.

BTW: on Irenaeus heresies prepub (almost there):

https://www.logos.com/product/55083/irenaeus-on-the-christian-faith-a-condensation-of-against-heresies 


Posts 16
Judson s | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 25 2019 7:06 PM

I purchased Early church fathers 37 vol, Protestant edition (because it has more books)

https://www.logos.com/product/5771/early-church-fathers-protestant-edition

Posts 178
Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 25 2019 10:38 PM

Ken McGuire:

Looking closer I see a few sets that may interest you.

First off, there is the old "Schaff" - although he didn't edit the ante Nicenes... It is actually a decent collection, but it has a few problems. It is dated - unaware of the many textual discoveries since then. Clement gets a bit specific in how he talks about sex, and the Victorian editors decided to publish it in Latin instead of English in Strom. 3. In general, the English is a bit dated in that it is "Church English" which uses some archaisms then, let alone now. Some of the notes have quite an anti-Roman Catholic bias. In addition, it is missing a fair amount of Origen's exegetical work. And it gets quite spotty in the Nicene and Post Nicenes since it squeezes everybody but Augustine and Chrysostom into 14 volumes.

Then there is Fathers of the Church, which you linked. This probably the largest selection of pastristic writings in English, done largely by Roman Catholics in the USA since World War 2. The translations are quite readable, and the notes are short, unobtrusive, and generally quite helpful. The biggest writer missing to my eyes is Irenaeus, although some Desert Fathers would be nice too.

Probably the most annotated set is Ancient Christian Writers. In the print edition, I have seen notes that are over a page long in the endnotes, as they dissect where exactly a key phrase fits in the history of Christian thought. In general this edition goes into more detail in references to other writings. But the coverage is spotty. Interestingly, it has a quite good translation of the first three books of Irenaeus's Against Heresies. For some reason it does not seem to include the translation of Irenaeus's Proof of the Apostolic Preaching which is in the print set. It has a quite good edition of Justin Martyr's Apologies (really the 1st. The 2nd is basically a cover letter for the 1st) but it doesn't have the Dialogue with Trypho which is included in Fathers of the Church.

Other sets worth considering would be the volumes of Popular Patristics. Logos has put them out in five sets of ten volumes so far. This set doesn't try to be exhaustive or anything, but tries to put key writings in the hands of the church of today.

In addition the Classics of Western Spirituality has many volumes that can be of interest.

Excellent synopsis Ken!  I looked into these links and think I am just going to spring for Fathers of the Church—when it goes on sale that is ๐Ÿ˜ณ!

I do see the Schaff volumes still referenced in various works.  They must still be considered weighty by many academics.  I do have some early works, but, in particular I am really wanting to read Justin, Clement, Ignatius, Hippolytus, etc.

Thanks again for your input and time (I will review this more closely)!

Posts 178
Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 25 2019 10:42 PM

SineNomine:

Puddin’:
Thank you Ken.  I am interested in almost any early writers—such as Justin Martyr, Clement, Ignatius, Tertullian, etc.  

The ANF set that you link is definitely a good one for your needs, although it lacks Irenaeus.

Puddin’:
For example, I have read that Tertullian wrote quite harshly against Christian women adorning themselves immodestly, as well as ornamentation.  And, again, I would be interested to see if this is accurate (not that it would affect my doctrinal position, just curious).

I believe you'll find what you're looking for here and (in a much older and less readable translation) here.

Ahhh, yes, I think you’re right about this work by Tertullian ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿผ.  I do have his work Against Praxeas, but wasn’t very impressed.

I see what you mean regarding the second link above.  In the review pages I did note the archaic language, difficult syntax, etc.  The content looks interesting though.

Thanks much!

Posts 178
Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 25 2019 10:47 PM

EastTN:
Everything Ken says about Schaff is absolutely correct.  The two advantages are that it is relatively inexpensive, and is included in a number of the base packages. It lets you link to a usable translation of a good bit of patristic material without breaking the bank.  I got it years ago as part of a base package. This has helped provide a bit of a door into the church fathers for me.  As I've gotten more interested - and as I've had the money - I've been gradually buying more up-to-date resources for selected early writers. 

(There is also a Catholic edition.  The texts are the same, but it doesn't include some of the more anti-Catholic introductory material.) 

Good point.  Y’all have sold me on Schaff, the link I provided earlier, and the link to the highly annotated Fathers that Ken posted.  

Now, since y’all have been so helpful w. this part of the selection process—perhaps y’all can share some of your methods to convincing the wife why I just *HAVE* to have these๐Ÿคซ!

Thanks much for every post.  VERY helpful.

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