The future of Logos and Faithlife: Help us make the right decisions!

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This post has 145 Replies | 17 Followers

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 13 2019 7:25 AM

Guys, for goodness sakes. Casting 'Bible Study' as theological is the first mistake. Timothy, where art thou? And treating Logos as 'Bible Study' is the second. Sermon prep, yes. Research, yes. Batman is where he needs to be.


Posts 352
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 13 2019 9:57 PM

Andrew:
I do appreciate the prayers. However, please do not misinterpret "frustration" over things as being equal to not loving God. 
The desire or lack thereof is due to the over complicated system, which is due to it's complex nature. For about 8 years I had an over-priced Logos system that did me no good at all. The simplest of tasks (looking up a verse by keyword or location) was far easier and quicker to do in a hard copy Bible or a google search. The load times alone was ridiculous. Fortunately, this has been improved upon with Logos 8. What used to take 3-5 minutes to load now take 30-60 seconds. Then there was the constant updates, rendering the software completely useless. (Yes, I know you can turn off updates, but, that is NOT an answer, because the updates are STILL there to be updated).
It's now just a matter of getting the desire to use this software that has cost me thousands of dollars over the past 9-10 years. Remember each jump is about $400, plus any additionals. I started at 3, was told there were no plans for L4, and within several months, there it was. Fortunately, Logos has since allowed for major discounts for jumping to the next version, that I do not recall before L7, if you had just purchased the previous. 

So, again, people who have frustrations and even anger issues with even "Christian" organizations have good reason to. But, does not mean they do not love God. 

Andrew Biddinger:

Batman:

 Sadly there's not much that can be done to regain my desire (that i am aware of) to get back to the Bible Study I once loved. That will take God to move me back.

I need Jesus every day. Praying that he renews your heart to love him.

Taste and see that the Lord is good; blessed is the one who takes refuge in him.” (Psalm 34:8, NIV)

Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.” (1 Peter 2:2–3, NIV)

Posts 352
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 13 2019 10:16 PM

DAL, Sorry, but, your response is about as confused a response as I have seen, in a long while. 

First, you are off base on what God does: "I have chosen you", "No man comes to the Father unless I draw them to him". Yes, God wants us to diligently seek him, and rewards those who do. But, even that is the gift of God. So, no, you are completely off base Scripturally  in saying "To expect a miracle or God to come and fetch you is to believe the devil’s lies." 
Second, I stated that I have lost my desire to study the Bible as I once did, because this software has been a sore spot to me for so long. It was everything I expected, but, nothing of what I had hoped. I had hoped it would be as simple to use as the previous software I had used, except thanks to MS upgrading to XP, none of my old software worked. I was told this was awesome software, would be fabulous for research. I just didn't expect to have to go to school to learn how to use it, or, for it to have been slower than opening the hard copy Bible to find a passage. Or to google a passage. 
As a side note, I generally use commentaries to ensure I am following inline Biblical interpretation, as opposed to "private interpretation", although I do my own work. I do have a working knowledge of how the Hebrew language works, while my actual language skills are not yet complete. 
But, Bible Study and whatever you are talking about are two different things. 
And, I will accept the prayers from any who profess to be Christians, for my spiritual well being; and, I do appreciate that. 

DAL:

Batman:

 Sadly there's not much that can be done to regain my desire (that i am aware of) to get back to the Bible Study I once loved. That will take God to move me back.

Actually, God has already given you the knowledge to realize you can’t be in your current state.  It’s your choice to go back to your Father just like it was the prodigal son’s choice to come to his senses.

You cannot expect God to be behind you begging you to come back or to convince you to come back.  To expect a miracle or God to come and fetch you is to believe the devil’s lies.

Praying and hoping you repent and turn back to God!

DAL

Posts 352
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 13 2019 10:21 PM

Hi Denise. Been a while seeing you here. (I best be careful, or else maybe my spiritual destination may be on the line for not posting regularly. lol). 
Yep, I think pastors get caught up in a conflict where they think Bible study for sermon prep and personal time with God are the same. They can be; but, they can also get in the way of each other, if we are not careful. 

Thanks for understanding the difference. And, I always hope I am where I need to be. But, I also understand I am a long way from where I should be. But, at the same time, I also understand that I need to go through many of these journeys to get where I need to be. 

Appreciate you. 
Thanks, sis.

Denise:

Guys, for goodness sakes. Casting 'Bible Study' as theological is the first mistake. Timothy, where art thou? And treating Logos as 'Bible Study' is the second. Sermon prep, yes. Research, yes. Batman is where he needs to be.

Posts 6408
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 14 2019 1:49 AM

Well Batman, You’re a calvinist...that explains everything.  Well, continue in your lost state.  According to Calvin maybe you weren’t a real Christian to begin with and that’s why you’re not in the mood for God anymore.

Don’t worry about obedience (Hebrews 5:8-9; Matthew 7:21; Luke 6:46; John 13:17), you have not been chosen, so no need to vent with a pity party in the forum about how you don’t have the desire anymore.  

👍😁👌 Cheers to confusion! (Irony o ironies) 😂

DAL

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 14 2019 3:11 AM

A gentle reminder that the forum isn’t the place to argue about (or mock) different theological viewpoints. Let’s please be respectful of one another.

Posts 326
Andrew Biddinger | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 14 2019 4:52 AM

Batman:

Andrew:
I do appreciate the prayers. However, please do not misinterpret "frustration" over things as being equal to not loving God.

Ah, I am glad for that! I was misunderstanding what you were saying then. I'm glad that your desire for God and knowing him through his word doesn't hinge on being happy with your Logos purchase. :)

This might not be you, but one thing I've found in me is that often when I find myself getting upset or disappointment in something, it can often be because I have made myself or an object an idol of my affections. That can be a good heart/motivation check. But, only you and the Lord know your own heart.

On a practical level, I'm sure we also agree together that we want Logos to improve.

Posts 352
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 14 2019 1:54 PM

What I am is annoyed that you do not understand the difference between being a Christian and frustrated with expensive software that has not worked,
But, apparently you are what Solomon has described in Proverbs 26. 
If we have an ignore button, please add me to yours, as I will add you to mine. 

DAL:

Well Batman, You’re a calvinist...that explains everything.  Well, continue in your lost state.  According to Calvin maybe you weren’t a real Christian to begin with and that’s why you’re not in the mood for God anymore.

Don’t worry about obedience (Hebrews 5:8-9; Matthew 7:21; Luke 6:46; John 13:17), you have not been chosen, so no need to vent with a pity party in the forum about how you don’t have the desire anymore.  

👍😁👌 Cheers to confusion! (Irony o ironies) 😂

DAL

Posts 352
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 14 2019 2:08 PM

ROFLOL no, my happiness and state of eternal security and my standing before God is not dependency on my Logos purchase; that is solely based on God's mercy, and his choice to have accepted me, or to not have accepted me. (Eph. 2:8-10) 
And, yes, I do want Logos to constantly improve, and fortunately, so does Bob, and the company (hence this entire thread, he created). And, fortunately, L8 has made HUGE strides in the improvement category, in my opinion. It is extremely expensive (to me) as I have decided to go with the annual membership; but, IF i can get motivated to learn this software (which I still have a huge distaste for, and will be a while before I can erase the bad taste left behind, for quite some time), I will rejoice that I am able to and willing to use all the money I have forked over to this software and make good use of it. In the meantime, I have an overpriced software that I just do not have the motivation and desire to learn; other than to read as a Bible. (Which again, makes this a several thousand dollar Bible; rather than the resource it was intended to be. And at THAT point, once i get to that point, I will be happy with the purchase(s). Until then, I am still blah about it)> However, on the plus side, I have seen Bob and his desire to be more honorable than I initially perceived; and am happy that I am (hopefully) incorrect on his motivations. 

Once I can get past the lack of motivation to learn the software, I can begin to appreciate it, and the improvements that came along with 8, and I am sure will come with 9. 

Andrew Biddinger:

Batman:

Andrew:
I do appreciate the prayers. However, please do not misinterpret "frustration" over things as being equal to not loving God.

Ah, I am glad for that! I was misunderstanding what you were saying then. I'm glad that your desire for God and knowing him through his word doesn't hinge on being happy with your Logos purchase. :)

This might not be you, but one thing I've found in me is that often when I find myself getting upset or disappointment in something, it can often be because I have made myself or an object an idol of my affections. That can be a good heart/motivation check. But, only you and the Lord know your own heart.

On a practical level, I'm sure we also agree together that we want Logos to improve.

Posts 352
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 27 2019 1:31 PM

I felt the way I left you, was no more appropriate than the way you left me. Therefore, I thought I would share an example of why I am frustrated with the entire Logos software. and why I do not think my eternal security is dependent upon my loving Logos. 

Thanks to John Falahee, I am getting some training. He has proven to me he is about seeing people are comfortable and understand Logos. Noqw, despite the lessons I have gone through, and the personal time he has made, what happened today furthers my exasperation of the entire Logos package. 

I was working on a subject, that required a passage. I typed in "Deny yourself" in all bibles, hoping whatever phrasing would come up. I had ONE verse come up; in Leviticus. Not what I needed. So, I google it, and in 2 seconds it appears!

Now, i am sorry you think my eternal security is dependent upon my loving Logos; and that it is frustrating, because I can do what I need for free from Google, and can't get this massive and powerful and extremely expensive software to do a simple task. 

Anyway, I thought maybe this example might give an insight as to why 10 years of this type of thing has me irritated frustrated and not Mr. Happy with a several thousand dollar software that has done less for me than a secular Google search engine, that I get for free (save the personal info associated with google). 



DAL:

Well Batman, You’re a calvinist...that explains everything.  Well, continue in your lost state.  According to Calvin maybe you weren’t a real Christian to begin with and that’s why you’re not in the mood for God anymore.

Don’t worry about obedience (Hebrews 5:8-9; Matthew 7:21; Luke 6:46; John 13:17), you have not been chosen, so no need to vent with a pity party in the forum about how you don’t have the desire anymore.  

👍😁👌 Cheers to confusion! (Irony o ironies) 😂

DAL

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 27 2019 3:43 PM

Batman:
I was working on a subject, that required a passage. I typed in "Deny yourself" in all bibles, hoping whatever phrasing would come up. I had ONE verse come up; in Leviticus. Not what I needed. So, I google it, and in 2 seconds it appears!

It's a fascinating example - thanks for sharing.

I assume that you were looking for hoping to find where Jesus calls disciples to deny themselves (in Mark 8:34 and parallels) - and the issue seems to be related to the fact that the verses don't have "deny yourself" but "deny themselves".

Google seems - although I don't know what algorithm they use - seem to be picking up on sermons etc that use the phrase "deny yourself" and link back to the appropriate verses. Whereas Logos - because the actual phrase doesn't occur - doesn't find any relevant results.

Is this a fair summary of the situation?

If so - and with the very different approach to searching between the two engines - its not at all clear to me how Logos would need to be changed to support the sort of search you are hoping for. You would need some form of "fuzzy matching" where the fuzziness was not about rendering in different translations but more about different expressions that point to the same meaning.

Posts 10178
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 27 2019 4:11 PM

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+16%3A24-26&version=DLNT 

Batman was using the wrong version (smiling).  BTW, DLNT is from someone from Logos Bible Institute. That makes it ok.

Actually, DuckDuck did well. And even ignoring DLNT, BibleGateway still found it.


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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 27 2019 4:12 PM

Batman:
I was working on a subject, that required a passage. I typed in "Deny yourself" in all bibles, hoping whatever phrasing would come up. I had ONE verse come up; in Leviticus. Not what I needed. So, I google it, and in 2 seconds it appears!

Replicated one fuzzy Bible result in Leviticus. Google understands yourself being synonymous with self so changing Bible search to deny self included Luke 9:23 in fuzzy results so modified Bible search to deny (self,himself) that includes Mark 8:34 in results

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 352
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 27 2019 4:14 PM

Graham, 
Your assumptions are spot on. 
I was indeed intending to hunt down "Deny themselves" as opposed to "Deny yourself". 

This has been the frustration I have had with Logos for over a decade. Upon my next correspondence with John., I will ask again, why or how the verses came up out of Bible-book order. He told me last week, but, I do forget his response. I typed in "deny" and perhaps after clicking 3-4 "More results", it finally showed up.
You are correct that using Google, it linked into sermons, more so than Bible references, which of course then tied into online Bibles. So, for whatever reason, the "fuzzy search" on Google brought me to where I wanted to be, and in a split second. 

Once again, I will be relying on my own "fuzzy search" in my memory banks. But, I do recall seeing a video that explained how Logos' "Fuzzy search" <should> brings up results that aren't word perfect. Unfortunately, over the years I have had Logos, I have found it so much more simple to Google or even scan a physical Bible than to rely on Logos. 

I have no doubt Logos is an awesome resource. A powerful tool. But, at the same time, I keep getting kicked in the face with an analogy that seems to fit: I can do more more quickly scanning through scrolls than using powerful tools like Logos. I am left baffled, wondering if this is a lack of extensive (or even free) training or if this is a situation where paper and pen is much more efficient than a super computer?  Before Windows XP, I had about 5 Bible software titles that I could slither through with a simple search. Thanks to these other companies NOT being like Logos, and working very hard to ensure Logos stays up to date (and I do mean working hard, as the same day Vista, 7, 8 and 10 came out, Logos was ready to roll), they became useless. 

So, at this point, every time I think I see a light at the end of the proverbial tunnel, it seems like I find it to be a Logomotive (:D locomotive) coming head on and not the hopeful results I, well, hope for. So dang derned frustrating. 

To answer your question, I have no clue how Logos would need to be changed. But, am I wrong and expecting more from Logos' "fuzzy search"? 

Graham Criddle:

Batman:
I was working on a subject, that required a passage. I typed in "Deny yourself" in all bibles, hoping whatever phrasing would come up. I had ONE verse come up; in Leviticus. Not what I needed. So, I google it, and in 2 seconds it appears!

It's a fascinating example - thanks for sharing.

I assume that you were looking for hoping to find where Jesus calls disciples to deny themselves (in Mark 8:34 and parallels) - and the issue seems to be related to the fact that the verses don't have "deny yourself" but "deny themselves".

Google seems - although I don't know what algorithm they use - seem to be picking up on sermons etc that use the phrase "deny yourself" and link back to the appropriate verses. Whereas Logos - because the actual phrase doesn't occur - doesn't find any relevant results.

Is this a fair summary of the situation?

If so - and with the very different approach to searching between the two engines - its not at all clear to me how Logos would need to be changed to support the sort of search you are hoping for. You would need some form of "fuzzy matching" where the fuzziness was not about rendering in different translations but more about different expressions that point to the same meaning.

Posts 352
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 27 2019 4:22 PM

Hmm. Ok, it's not google I used. It is indeed Duckduckgo. Im sure google works the same. (And, more people understand "google" than DDG. 
Im not sure what DLNT is, but, I do see it is part of the link. 
I appreciate how you seem to always understand what I am not saying correctly. 
Thats the second time this month, and probably the 100th time overall. Thank you so much. You dont know how awesome it is to have someone understand what I am not understanding. It's very much like having an interpreter to a foreign language and is very much appreciated. 
THANK YOU!!!!

Denise:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+16%3A24-26&version=DLNT 

Batman was using the wrong version (smiling).  BTW, DLNT is from someone from Logos Bible Institute. That makes it ok.

Actually, DuckDuck did well. And even ignoring DLNT, BibleGateway still found it.

Posts 352
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 27 2019 4:32 PM

You are yet another one who has been through many of my frustrations over the years. And, Actually, if I am not mistaken, were one who helped turn me around back on L7. So, to you as well, THANK YOU! 

Where the heck am I messed up at? Well, other than having the wrong words for fuzzy search. For some reason, I dont think it would have ever dawned on me to just do "deny" and "self". I remember it as "deny yourself" as opposed to "deny themselves" but regardless, I would have thought Logos would have figured out what i was looking for. 
Thank God I did extremely well with those "Sword Drills" when I was a kid and for Google, err, Duckduckgo (lol) otherwise I'd be completely helpless finding verses. 

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Replicated one fuzzy Bible result in Leviticus. Google understands yourself being synonymous with self so changing Bible search to deny self included Luke 9:23 in fuzzy results so modified Bible search to deny (self,himself) that includes Mark 8:34 in results

Keep Smiling Smile

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 27 2019 4:36 PM

Batman:
This has been the frustration I have had with Logos for over a decade.

and will probably have for many more as Faithlife will never have the necessary computer power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_data_centers

Yes, Logos is smaller in scale of corpus and user but still the necessary algorithms require very serious computer power.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 352
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 27 2019 4:45 PM

Thanks for that boost of confidence. Ha! 
Well, you've always been a straight shooter with me. So, why stop now? 
Appreciate it. 

MJ. Smith:

Batman:
This has been the frustration I have had with Logos for over a decade.

and will probably have for many more as Faithlife will never have the necessary computer power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_data_centers

Yes, Logos is smaller in scale of corpus and user but still the necessary algorithms require very serious computer power.

Posts 1998
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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 27 2019 11:35 PM

Batman:
was working on a subject, that required a passage. I typed in "Deny yourself" in all bibles, hoping whatever phrasing would come up. I had ONE verse come up; in Leviticus. Not what I needed. So, I google it, and in 2 seconds it appears!

Thanks for a great, concrete example! The "problem" with your query is (assuming you're looking for the condition Jesus gives for following him) that the pronoun is in second person rather than third person. I think it would be good if fuzzy search would plug in additional pronouns, especially on queries that are producing only a few hits. Of course the reason that Google is finding it for you is because of many people talking about the passage(s).

One practical tip to improving results in fuzzy search: Use more words. Changing your query to "deny himself" produces the desired results, but that requires you to be exact, which nullifies the advantage of fuzzy search! Simply lengthening your query, on the other hand, to "deny yourself take up", also produces the desired results. Adding two more words in your search might have been faster (and definitely "cleaner") than opening Google, especially if you were wanting to find all three synoptic references.

Edit: An additional improvement to fuzzy search might be to allow terms to be designated as "required." Perhaps something like "!deny yourself take up your !cross" could either:

  1. Exclude results that don't have both "deny" and "cross" 
  2. Simply adjust the ranking to put greater weight on those terms

Edit2: Sorry for the double response! I guess that's what happens when you see a post on the way to bed, leave the tab open overnight, then respond without refreshing first! 😏

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Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 28 2019 11:53 AM

Reuben Helmuth:

Batman:
was working on a subject, that required a passage. I typed in "Deny yourself" in all bibles, hoping whatever phrasing would come up. I had ONE verse come up; in Leviticus. Not what I needed. So, I google it, and in 2 seconds it appears!

Thanks for a great, concrete example!

<snip />

Our thanks as well for a good example of something that "should" work but doesn't. You're right that our goal with fuzzy search is that, for many cases, "close" will be good enough. Without going into additional details about why this works for some web search engines, we're making some fixes that should improve this example and others like it. 

Reuben is also correct that, in many cases, more words in the query may help fuzzy search. 

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