ANNOUNCEMENT: End of support for Windows 7, Windows 8.1 & MacOS 10.11–10.13

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 31 2019 1:04 AM

Adam Borries (Faithlife):
Read more about the Support Lifecyle.

Can we get this support document fixed, please? It erroneously says that "versions of Logos before Logos 7.19 will not be able to connect to our servers". This contradicts the information at https://www.logos.com/logos-7-update which says that version before 7.0 are affected.

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Mark Barnes:

Adam Borries (Faithlife):
Read more about the Support Lifecyle.

Can we get this support document fixed, please? It erroneously says that "versions of Logos before Logos 7.19 will not be able to connect to our servers". This contradicts the information at https://www.logos.com/logos-7-update which says that version before 7.0 are affected.

It should say Logos 7.18 SR-1 or later. (Some earlier versions of Logos 7 can connect, depending on your operating system, but generally Logos 7.18 SR-1 is required.)

However, Logos 7 is unsupported so I'm not planning to edit that page to go into a lot of detail about which specific unsupported versions are more likely to work than others.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 31 2019 8:59 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
It should say Logos 7.18 SR-1 or later. (Some earlier versions of Logos 7 can connect, depending on your operating system, but generally Logos 7.18 SR-1 is required.)

As I understand it, TLS 1.2:

  • is enabled by default by OS X 10.9 and above, and Windows 8.1 and above.
  • can be enabled manually on all versions of Windows except XP (from the Advanced tab of Internet Properties, or by editing the registry)

As Logos 7 isn't compatible with any OSs that can't support TLS 1.2, then all versions of Logos 7 should connect, so long as the correct box is checked in Internet Properties.

In practice, this doesn't matter for Windows users, because they can just run Logos 8 (or 7.19). But it does make a difference to the small number users of OS X 10.10 Yosemite who can't upgrade to a more recent OS and are stuck with 7.13. For them it's important: e.g. Need an installer for OS X 10.10.5

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 31 2019 10:28 AM

I don't know about Mono on macOS, but for .NET Framework applications on Windows, it's much, much more complicated: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/framework/network-programming/tls

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 31 2019 2:04 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

I don't know about Mono on macOS, but for .NET Framework applications on Windows, it's much, much more complicated: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/framework/network-programming/tls

Fair enough.

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Kytriya | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 18 2019 5:50 PM

1. Getting Jesus into the hands of the masses is more important than following the lead of greed in telling the poor masses "we won't support you, because the mass greedy wealthy isn't going to support you."  OTOH, Windows 10 WAS given away for free!!! 

2. (Extra rambling) The only reason why Microsoft is not going to support older systems, is money. I get it. I made 0 sense of windows 8, and windows 10 wasn't even better, so I didn't install it. OTOH, I do NOT expect Logos to be able to afford the extra cost to do backwards support either. 

3. Question follows - Also, I found some blurbage on the web  that scared me away from Windows 10. iIt basically meant "Microsoft has the exclusive rights to force reboot your computer after secretly installing updates such that you can not save first." This is why I didn't downgrade to windows 10. I thought that IF and ONLY IF this was true, then Microsoft was being evil to the core. I am not going to save every little word I type right after typing it,  just because windows is not letting me save before it insist on rebooting. OTOH, my laptop is old and does need replacing. I was hoping to have a couple years. 

Question - Did Microsoft FIX the issue so that we can save work before they forcefully reboot computer? With Windows 10, specifically? Thanks! 

signed sad and wishing for 2021 date instead of 2020. (Arbitrary date in which my laptop and others like it, might not be working anyway.)

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 18 2019 6:22 PM

Kytriya:
Question - Did Microsoft FIX the issue so that we can save work before they forcefully reboot computer? With Windows 10, specifically? T

That has never been my experience with the the major version upgrades (2x per year). I've had to chase the upgrade in some cases.

Regular updates and fixes can occur at a time you specify in Settings, even when the computer is sleeping.

It's always a risk if you leave work unsaved, but Logos regularly/immediately syncs your work. And Office 365 will Autosave by default.

Dave
===

Windows & Android

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Paul L. White | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 28 2019 1:46 AM

I would like to ask if there is any way Logos could set up two different download types by 8.12?

One would be a data only, and the other would be program upgrade?  Or updated software data type?

That way, people who have older computers, and older versions of the software on those computers, can still buy new books,, and use them on their machine(s).

Is it difficult for Logos to "tag" each new resource publication as to whether it is merely a document, or such a thing as a dataset or file which would require the higher OS and version of Logos?

In other words, mere books ought to be compatible with all versions of Logos, no?  Blessings.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 28 2019 1:52 AM

Paul L. White:
In other words, mere books ought to be compatible with all versions of Logos, no?

Unfortunately not. Some books depend on newer versions of the software.

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Paul L. White:
That way, people who have older computers, and older versions of the software on those computers, can still buy new books,, and use them on their machine(s).

This is what we call "maintenance" support. See the fuller descriptions here: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360007391412-About-Free-Support

We did this in the past (for example) where updates to Logos 5 were shipped to allow users still on Windows Vista to read the latest books (because Logos 6 required Windows 7). We're going to keep shipping maintenance updates for Logos 8 to Windows 7 users as long as that's practical, but this support will end by the end of 2020.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 29 2019 2:42 PM

Just to explain about new books and new software. Generally speaking, new books can be read on older versions of the software. So if you can’t/won’t upgrade you will still be able to access many new purchases (although the older the software, the less likely this will become). This announcement isn’t saying the new resources will never run on older versions of the software - it’s saying that compatibility won’t be guaranteed.

There can be a number of reasons why new resources require a recent version of the software.  One of the most common is that it requires a new datatype for its references. New datatypes can only be added through a software update.

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Paul L. White | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 29 2019 11:32 PM

PetahChristian, Bradley, and Mark:  thank you all so very much for your comments, empathy, and clarifying information!  Your kindness and expertise are, in my mind, evidences of your genuine love for God, and what He is doing through this software.  Blessings.

What I'm learning from you is that Logos documents (called "books" on your website) are not just text and image (in computer lingo) files combined, like on a web page.  It's the indexing process, the interconnection between resources that requires the datatype mobility, and thus software upgrades.  An example would be a link to the Timeline Tool when a date is mentioned.

But if people want merely words and images, without some of that interconnectivity, then I presume books will be readable, just not able to jump to, say, the timeline from the text you're reading.

I still think it a wise idea, since a good portion of your client base is made of senior citizens on extremely limited incomes, to allow download of new *book* resources only, and not software upgrades, by older software versions.

That way, Logos and Faithlife become *ministries* over businesses.  But then again, I don't have to pay salaries for the corporation, do I?  Wink

Paul L. White, Satisfied Logos User since 1.6

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 29 2019 11:55 PM

Paul L. White:
But if people want merely words and images, without some of that interconnectivity, then I presume books will be readable, just not able to jump to, say, the timeline from the text you're reading.

As a senior citizen on a fixed income and a retiree in a career in IT, I have to say "nope, doesn't work that way". The system has to recognize the tagging in the text for it to be able to "just not be able to jump to". The software already ignores the tagging for features you do not own but it has to recognize that you don't have access to those features. The ways one can externalize this knowledge to make it possible to do more without changing the software have additional costs in execution time, et. al. Don't confuse adding data for an existing feature (as in the timeline example) to adding a new feature that requires a new kind of tagging.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 30 2019 1:32 PM

Paul L. White:

What I'm learning from you is that Logos documents (called "books" on your website) are not just text and image (in computer lingo) files combined, like on a web page.  It's the indexing process, the interconnection between resources that requires the datatype mobility, and thus software upgrades.  An example would be a link to the Timeline Tool when a date is mentioned.

But if people want merely words and images, without some of that interconnectivity, then I presume books will be readable, just not able to jump to, say, the timeline from the text you're reading.

I still think it a wise idea, since a good portion of your client base is made of senior citizens on extremely limited incomes, to allow download of new *book* resources only, and not software upgrades, by older software versions.

Your description isn't quite accurate. Let me give an example.

Let's imagine Faithlife a release a new book. There's nothing technically innovative about it. Like most books it has page numbers, and contains lots of Bible references, but that's about all. This book will very likely be able to be used by older versions of the software.

But then they release another book. This is a reference book, that has its own reference scheme. Instead of page numbers, it has sections and paragraphs, so other resources that refer to it use a naming scheme like ABC 1.7, or ABC 8.9. This reference system hasn't been used in Logos before, as it's unique to this book. A new version of Logos will need to be released in order to support this reference scheme, and therefore this book will only be able to be used with the latest version of the software.

(This is one example of why some new books will require the latest version of the software. There are other possible reasons too, but I hope this is sufficient to explain why it isn't possible to fully disconnect resources from software versions.)

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8Isaiah20 | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 4 2019 2:46 PM

No surprise that you're helping to usher Christians into a system that promises much, delivers little, and does everything on the condition of the consumer who must agree to continue releasing their information into its "cloud." I'm sure the reaction to my comment will spark a great deal push back, but I don't care. When I first signed up with Logos, I was proud of a product that sought to stand outside of the bookstores and other resources that limited access to Christian. But I can't recognize you anymore. You look no different than the Christian bookstores whose difference can barely be seen apart from the bumper stickers and mugs all proclaiming one God, but relying heavily on another god to get that message out to the masses.

So I'm looking forward to the end of Maintenance Support if only be separated from the deception.

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John Morgan | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 4 2019 4:04 PM

 I have the Mac version of logos. My MacBook Pro is from the mid 2010 and I run macOS High Sierra. According to this announcement it appears that I will need to get a new MacBook every four years sense El Capitan  was released about four years ago and now will not receive any updates.  If this is true I will admit this makes me very upset since I put so much money to buying this library that’s is supposed to be cheaper than print books but if I have to buy a MacBook every four years and they cost around $1200 and they can get pretty expensive pretty quickly.  Can you confirm that I will or will not need to get a new MacBook every for five years just to have updated versions of my logos?

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John Morgan | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 4 2019 4:09 PM

I have a MacBook. According to this announcement it appears that I will have to get a new MacBook about every four years, since El Capitan came out about four years ago.  With MacBooks Starting at around $1000-$1200 getting a new MacBook every four years just so I can run my logos is pretty expensive. Can you confirm for me whether or not this means I will have to get a new MacBook every four years just to continue the updates on my logos?

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Levi Durfey | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 4 2019 4:19 PM

Not if you update your macOS every year (which is free). Your Macbook will be fine until Apple makes a macOS that it cannot run. Then it will be a few years after that when Logos will not run on the last supported macOS for your Macbook.

Based on your post before this last one, it's about every 9-10 years, not four.

A 2010 Macbook Pro would work until 2019.

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John Morgan | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 4 2019 4:28 PM

Thank you Levi.

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garymstevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 4 2019 5:07 PM

So, I know that I am in the minority, but this message bothers me significantly. First of all, I have been a Logos customer since the early 1990s and I have spent thousands of dollars on new material and especially upgrades to the program and its features. Second, I purchased my computer when the latest and best Windows was 8.1. When the upgrade to 10 became available, it crashed my system. After a week with a Microsoft tech, I learned that a number of key drivers needed were never going to be updated to be Windows 10 compliant. Now, I am being told that the only system you will support is Windows 10 64 bit? I cannot afford to buy a new computer. I can't afford to spend any more on Logos. This is more than frustrating. I have lost all faith in Faithlife.

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