Question re categorisation of some books

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Jordan Litchfield | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Aug 14 2019 12:36 PM

The Freer manuscripts downloaded today - just wondering why they are being categorised as monographs rather than manuscripts?

Also, I was pleased to see recently that some new type categories have been created recently, poetry and prayers.

Regarding the latter, I was surprised to find only two resources under that heading when I know I have many other books of prayers. One example is The Edge of Glory: Prayers in the Celtic Tradition.

Maybe this is a work in progress of reassigning some of these books to a different type?

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Jordan Litchfield | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 16 2019 10:56 AM

Bump.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 16 2019 5:30 PM

Jordan Litchfield:
The Freer manuscripts downloaded today - just wondering why they are being categorised as monographs rather than manuscripts?

The stated content is

  • One of the most important collections of Greek biblical manuscripts
  • Careful analysis and discussions of each codex
  • Several facsimiles of the actual manuscripts

So the content is not entirely manuscript. Further, is it indexed i.e. is there a text box to enter bible references?

Jordan Litchfield:

Also, I was pleased to see recently that some new type categories have been created recently, poetry and prayers.

Regarding the latter, I was surprised to find only two resources under that heading when I know I have many other books of prayers. ...

Maybe this is a work in progress of reassigning some of these books to a different type?

I'm not sure about the intent of these new categories, and I include Sermons with Prayers and Poetry. It would make sense if the content was tagged for use in Guide/Workflow sections, but some individual sermons are not included, whilst many sermons from monographs are included!

Dave
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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 16 2019 6:13 PM

On Freer, I don't know how each of the 2 volumes are classed, but the OT volume can be linked to a Bible. And typing in an OT passage will bring the MSS passage up (if available). The other NT volume appears to be straight text (page number only). Which is unfortunate.


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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 17 2019 12:41 AM

Dave Hooton:
the content is not entirely manuscript. Further, is it indexed i.e. is there a text box to enter bible references?

There is a bible index in both. However, if I saw that correct and as Denise pointed out, only in the OT volume the running bible text from the manuscript is indexed as bible, whereas in the NT volume, the apparatus o the bible text is bible-indexed, but the running text itself - while linked to the respective bible references - is only indexed as page. :-(

In former times, Faithlife would have split such books into multiple resources, e.g. one type:bible, one type:apparatus and another one as the monograph with all the additional information, since it is a very probable use case to have a multiple column layout and scroll bible text along with apparatus (and probably a modern eclectic GNT or an LXX resource along).   

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Jordan Litchfield | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 17 2019 1:24 AM

Dave Hooton:

Jordan Litchfield:
The Freer manuscripts downloaded today - just wondering why they are being categorised as monographs rather than manuscripts?

The stated content is

  • One of the most important collections of Greek biblical manuscripts
  • Careful analysis and discussions of each codex
  • Several facsimiles of the actual manuscripts

So the content is not entirely manuscript. Further, is it indexed i.e. is there a text box to enter bible references?

Thanks Dave - and Denise and NB.Mick - for the engagement.

As Denise correctly observes, the versification isn't in both volumes and there is a lot of analysis and discussion, so maybe 'monograph' is still the best categorization for these books.

Dave Hooton:

Jordan Litchfield:

Also, I was pleased to see recently that some new type categories have been created recently, poetry and prayers.

Regarding the latter, I was surprised to find only two resources under that heading when I know I have many other books of prayers. ...

Maybe this is a work in progress of reassigning some of these books to a different type?

I'm not sure about the intent of these new categories, and I include Sermons with Prayers and Poetry. It would make sense if the content was tagged for use in Guide/Workflow sections, but some individual sermons are not included, whilst many sermons from monographs are included!

Regarding prayers, I am including a short bibliography of other works that I think should be included in the prayers category. There are other resources that include prayers and sermons, etc, but these are just prayers.

  • Black, Ian. Prayers for All Occasions. London: SPCK, 2011.
  • Colquhoun, Frank, ed. Prayers for Today. London: Triangle; SPCK, 1989.
  • Hauerwas, Stanley. Prayers Plainly Spoken. Eugene, OR: Wipf and Stock Publishers, 2003.
  • Adam, David. The Edge of Glory: Prayers in the Celtic Tradition. London: SPCK Classics, 1985.
  • St. Tikhon’s Seminary. Orthodox Daily Prayers. St. Tikhon’s Seminary Press, 1982.
  • Stewart, Dorothy M., ed. Prayers for the Night. London: SPCK, 2011.

While looking through these I happened to run across another 'monograph' that I had flagged up a while back as a Bible commentary. Unfortunately, it still hasn't been corrected. Nijay Gupta's commentary on the Sermon on the Mount is in the Smyth & Helwys Bible Commentary series and is fully versified.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 17 2019 6:24 AM

Jordan Litchfield:

As Denise correctly observes, the versification isn't in both volumes and there is a lot of analysis and discussion, so maybe 'monograph' is still the best categorization for these books.

Denise was sloppy in her description. The NT volume has verses ... they're just not versified by Logos. I thought the whole point of Freer was the mss's and Logos' wildly ballyhoo'd power. A century old monograph?? Luckily $8.

Prayer and hymnal type resources, I'd have thought would be already classed. FL proposes to support the ....

(Much) Later:

'Actually' the Freer NT volume IS versified by Logos ... just not indexed. So, it's possible to click on the Freer NT verse number, and get a popup of the NT verse text (Nabre for me). Just no syncing ... no typing in a verse ref, etc


Posts 398
Jordan Litchfield | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 17 2019 1:16 PM

Denise:
I thought the whole point of Freer was the mss's and Logos' wildly ballyhoo'd power. A century old monograph?? Luckily $8.

Yes, a bit disappointing, although I'm sure it will still prove useful.

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Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 19 2019 11:01 AM

Jordan Litchfield:

The Freer manuscripts downloaded today - just wondering why they are being categorised as monographs rather than manuscripts?

This was a tricky one for us to categorize. "Manuscripts" is used for non-Biblical texts. We went back and forth on "Bible" and "Monograph" but went with "Monograph" due to its extensive front matter type discussion of the text. Changing it to "Bible" would be straight forward.

Jordan Litchfield:

Also, I was pleased to see recently that some new type categories have been created recently, poetry and prayers.

Regarding the latter, I was surprised to find only two resources under that heading when I know I have many other books of prayers. One example is The Edge of Glory: Prayers in the Celtic Tradition.

Maybe this is a work in progress of reassigning some of these books to a different type?

Yes. It's a Work in Progress. We did targeted updates of recent high-user volume collections/base packages and this wasn't on the lists. I updated its type this morning though.

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Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 19 2019 11:03 AM

Denise:

Jordan Litchfield:

As Denise correctly observes, the versification isn't in both volumes and there is a lot of analysis and discussion, so maybe 'monograph' is still the best categorization for these books.

Denise was sloppy in her description. The NT volume has verses ... they're just not versified by Logos. I thought the whole point of Freer was the mss's and Logos' wildly ballyhoo'd power. A century old monograph?? Luckily $8.

Prayer and hymnal type resources, I'd have thought would be already classed. FL proposes to support the ....

(Much) Later:

'Actually' the Freer NT volume IS versified by Logos ... just not indexed. So, it's possible to click on the Freer NT verse number, and get a popup of the NT verse text (Nabre for me). Just no syncing ... no typing in a verse ref, etc

I'm confused by this. It's indexed by Bible milestone. As a test you should be able to type Matthew 1:18 and navigate there. Is there something else you're thinking of?

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Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 19 2019 11:23 AM

Jordan Litchfield:

Regarding prayers, I am including a short bibliography of other works that I think should be included in the prayers category. There are other resources that include prayers and sermons, etc, but these are just prayers.

  • Black, Ian. Prayers for All Occasions. London: SPCK, 2011.
  • Colquhoun, Frank, ed. Prayers for Today. London: Triangle; SPCK, 1989.
  • Hauerwas, Stanley. Prayers Plainly Spoken. Eugene, OR: Wipf and Stock Publishers, 2003.
  • Adam, David. The Edge of Glory: Prayers in the Celtic Tradition. London: SPCK Classics, 1985.
  • St. Tikhon’s Seminary. Orthodox Daily Prayers. St. Tikhon’s Seminary Press, 1982.
  • Stewart, Dorothy M., ed. Prayers for the Night. London: SPCK, 2011.

I updated these as well.

Jordan Litchfield:

While looking through these I happened to run across another 'monograph' that I had flagged up a while back as a Bible commentary. Unfortunately, it still hasn't been corrected. Nijay Gupta's commentary on the Sermon on the Mount is in the Smyth & Helwys Bible Commentary series and is fully versified.

Are you referring to the volume on the Lord's Prayer and not the Sermon on the Mount?

I recall discussing this volume in another thread but the problem is the structure of the book. In order for us to place Bible miletsones, which is a prerequisite for any Bible commentary resource, it requires explicit textual identification of the Bible milestone which this volume did not.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 19 2019 12:23 PM

Kyle G. Anderson:
I'm confused by this. It's indexed by Bible milestone. As a test you should be able to type Matthew 1:18 and navigate there. Is there something else you're thinking of?

Me, too. No amount of typing, etc would wake up the NT index earlier. Also linking didn't work. Both worked on the OT volume, however. Today, NT worked. I think I know why.

Appreciate you're checking.


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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 20 2019 2:28 AM

Kyle G. Anderson:
I'm confused by this. It's indexed by Bible milestone. As a test you should be able to type Matthew 1:18 and navigate there.

It is indexed by Bible milestone for the four gospels (which don't give running text but only some words and apparatus-like information - it seems the book does not contain a running text of the gospels, or the Logos edition omits the text and gives only the apparatus?)

The Pauline letters minus Romans but incl. Hebrews are only page-indexed - page 265 through 315, even though those do give running text as far as manuscript content allows. 

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Jordan Litchfield | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 20 2019 4:54 AM

Kyle G. Anderson:

Jordan Litchfield:

While looking through these I happened to run across another 'monograph' that I had flagged up a while back as a Bible commentary. Unfortunately, it still hasn't been corrected. Nijay Gupta's commentary on the Sermon on the Mount is in the Smyth & Helwys Bible Commentary series and is fully versified.

Are you referring to the volume on the Lord's Prayer and not the Sermon on the Mount?

I recall discussing this volume in another thread but the problem is the structure of the book. In order for us to place Bible miletsones, which is a prerequisite for any Bible commentary resource, it requires explicit textual identification of the Bible milestone which this volume did not.

Yes, my mistake. It was the volume on the Lord's Prayer I was referring to.

Okay, odd thing just happened. After reading your comment I was puzzled because I had previously typed in a Bible milestone into the reference box to see if it had Bible milestones, and - bingo! It went to the reference. However, after your comment I went back and discovered that the commentary that was open was Witherington's commentary on Matthew in the Smyth & Helwys series. I didn't understand that because I was certain I had opened Gupta's volume. Regardless, I decided I had made a mistake somehow.

So this morning I opened up Gupta's volume again, went to the reference box and typed in a milestone. Presto! It went to the reference. HOWEVER, it had switched in the same tab to Witherington's commentary and Gupta's volume was gone!

Why would this happen? If have Gupta's volume, I am interested in what Gupta has to say and I will go to Witherington when I want to read what he has to say.

Regarding the apparent lack of Bible milestones in Gupta's volume, it seems an awful shame that it is gathering dust in the monographs. Unfortunately, I am not guaranteed to remember to hunt for it when preaching on the Lord's Prayer, but since it won't show up in my commentary guide, then I have to remember it to use it.

Maybe a silly question here, but is it possible that links can be created below the surface text so that when the reference Matthew 6:9 is entered into the reference box it goes to the corresponding line in the commentary - "Our Father, who is in heaven"?

There may not be a solution to this issue, but just hoping against hope that there is! Smile

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 20 2019 6:34 AM

Jordan Litchfield:

I had previously typed in a Bible milestone into the reference box to see if it had Bible milestones, and - bingo! It went to the reference. However, after your comment I went back and discovered that the commentary that was open was Witherington's commentary on Matthew in the Smyth & Helwys series. I didn't understand that because I was certain I had opened Gupta's volume. Regardless, I decided I had made a mistake somehow.

So this morning I opened up Gupta's volume again, went to the reference box and typed in a milestone. Presto! It went to the reference. HOWEVER, it had switched in the same tab to Witherington's commentary and Gupta's volume was gone!

Why would this happen? If have Gupta's volume, I am interested in what Gupta has to say and I will go to Witherington when I want to read what he has to say.

When commentaries are in the same series, Logos will automatically open the appropriate work when you direct it to a bible milestone that is not in the volume you are currently reading. This functionality is well-liked by many users (some even put the "best of the best" into a custom series to take advantage of that).

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

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Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 20 2019 9:52 AM

NB.Mick:

Kyle G. Anderson:
I'm confused by this. It's indexed by Bible milestone. As a test you should be able to type Matthew 1:18 and navigate there.

It is indexed by Bible milestone for the four gospels (which don't give running text but only some words and apparatus-like information - it seems the book does not contain a running text of the gospels, or the Logos edition omits the text and gives only the apparatus?)

The Pauline letters minus Romans but incl. Hebrews are only page-indexed - page 265 through 315, even though those do give running text as far as manuscript content allows. 

I'll get those added today. It'll miss the cut-off for today's updates but will be pushed out in two weeks.

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Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 20 2019 9:52 AM

NB.Mick:

Kyle G. Anderson:
I'm confused by this. It's indexed by Bible milestone. As a test you should be able to type Matthew 1:18 and navigate there.

It is indexed by Bible milestone for the four gospels (which don't give running text but only some words and apparatus-like information - it seems the book does not contain a running text of the gospels, or the Logos edition omits the text and gives only the apparatus?)

The Pauline letters minus Romans but incl. Hebrews are only page-indexed - page 265 through 315, even though those do give running text as far as manuscript content allows. 

I'll get those added today. It'll miss the cut-off for today's updates but will be pushed out in two weeks.

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Jordan Litchfield | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 20 2019 12:18 PM

NB.Mick:
When commentaries are in the same series, Logos will automatically open the appropriate work when you direct it to a bible milestone that is not in the volume you are currently reading. This functionality is well-liked by many users (some even put the "best of the best" into a custom series to take advantage of that).

Okay, but I'm not convinced that that's relevant here. A function would be relevant like that where the particular reference is not covered by the current volume, but is in another. E.g. typing Matthew 9:6 into the reference box when reading Gupta's volume on the Lord's Prayer would open up the relevant passage in Witherington's volume. Fair enough. But when you are studying the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6, then one expects it to stay in the same volume because one has opened said volume to read specifically that passage, which is covered by that volume.

Anyway, I am getting the point that this isn't going to change with Gupta's volume. It was just a hope that there might be a workaround, but I guess not.

Thanks to everyone for their participation.

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Jordan Litchfield | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 21 2019 9:24 AM

Kyle G. Anderson:
Yes. It's a Work in Progress. We did targeted updates of recent high-user volume collections/base packages and this wasn't on the lists. I updated its type this morning though.

Kyle, sorry but there is another categorisation question that I had regarding the "Atlas" type. Currently I have five resources in the atlas category, but there are three others that are in monographs that I thought would have belonged in the atlas category. Unless I'm missing something, they seem to be just like the other five.

I include all eight that I have in my library below, but the ones categorised as monograph are

  • Beitzel, Barry J. The New Moody Atlas of the Bible. Chicago, IL: Moody Publishers, 2009.
  • Brisco, Thomas V. Holman Bible Atlas. Holman Reference. Nashville, TN: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1998.
  • Dowley, Tim. Atlas of the European Reformations. Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, 2015.
  • Dowley, Tim. Atlas of World Religions. Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, 2018.
  • Rasmussen, Carl G. Zondervan Atlas of the Bible. Revised Edition. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2010.
  • Smith, Marsha A. Ellis, June Swann, Trent C. Butler, Christopher L. Church, and David S. Dockery. Holman Book of Biblical Charts, Maps, and Reconstructions. Nashville, TN: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1993.
  • Standard Bible Atlas. Cincinnati: Standard Publishing, 2006.
  • Wright, Paul H. Rose Then and Now Bible Map Atlas with Biblical Background and Culture. Torrance, CA: Rose Publishing, 2012.

Any hope of the rogue three joining the others, or is there a reason they belong in monographs?

By the way, I really do appreciate the effort to break the massive, amorphous monograph category into smaller, bite-size chunks!

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Jordan Litchfield | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 21 2019 9:25 AM

Jordan Litchfield:
I include all eight that I have in my library below, but the ones categorised as monograph are

..."are underlined."

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