Basic Library Marker Resource, what is it?

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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Aug 21 2019 4:24 PM

Hi Catholic power users:

I have a higher version of Verbum, but I noticed that Verbum 8 Basic has a live "add to car" button.

When I went to the page of "Verbum 8 Basic", it seems to indicate I am missing:

"Basic Library Marker Resource."

I have no clue what is it about, and the upgrade is free for me. 

Do I need it?, Does anyone know what it is for?

Thanks ahead of time for your input.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 21 2019 4:33 PM

Hamilton Ramos:
I have a higher version of Verbum, but I noticed that Verbum 8 Basic has a live "add to car" button.

Verbum (and Logos) Basic are (re)purchasable, even if we already own their contents.

Hamilton Ramos:
"Basic Library Marker Resource."

It shouldn't be visible. It's not an actual resource, but a way for FL to apparently keep track of what we own.

They've shown up in the past in certain packages, and were quickly "removed."

Posts 164
LogosEmployee

Thanks for the question Hamilton Ramos and for the response PetahChristian.

It is correct that the Marker Resources aren't supposed to be displayed.  I've fixed that.

The Marker Resources are more for our users to engage accurately with with logos.com or verbum.com, so the website knows when you own and what you don't when you need to purchase or install again.  It's less for us to keep track of what you own.

Craig St. Clair | Verbum Product Manager |

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 21 2019 7:36 PM

Thanks for the correction, Craig. For the website to know what we own, comes across much better.

I'm not sure what the intent is with respect to Basic (which are temporary, not permanent licenses). I just purchased the package again to ensure that the (new?) marker was associated with my account, but it's still purchasable.

By the way, the marker in the Logos Basic package needs to be hidden.

Posts 583
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 22 2019 5:42 AM

Ok, thanks PetaChristian and Craig for the clarification.

A little off topic: Do you know of any good resource that describes varied curriculum in different areas?

E.g. Biblical studies, systematic / Biblical theology, Church history and Patristics, Moral theology / Christian ethics, Ministry / outreach, etc.

How do professors go about knowing what is important to know in an area? is there a resource that clarifies that?

Thanks ahead of time for the input.

Posts 125
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Donald Antenen (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 22 2019 10:12 AM

Hamilton Ramos:

Ok, thanks PetaChristian and Craig for the clarification.

A little off topic: Do you know of any good resource that describes varied curriculum in different areas?

E.g. Biblical studies, systematic / Biblical theology, Church history and Patristics, Moral theology / Christian ethics, Ministry / outreach, etc.

How do professors go about knowing what is important to know in an area? is there a resource that clarifies that?

Thanks ahead of time for the input.

Hamilton, I recommend spending time in bibliographies. Pick a resource that you respect in one of the subjects you mention, and look at the bibliography for a map of what resources are important to the author.

Posts 583
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 22 2019 1:18 PM

Thank you Donald for the tip.

Many years ago there was a tv program made in Argentina called "Creencias" (something like "Beliefs").

In the program, a topic was chosen, and Jewish, Catholic, Hinduism, Islam, secular and other experts were invited to discuss the topic from the different perspectives.

Most of the time, the Catholic theologian blew people away with his answers. I was really impressed by how thoroughly the Catholic Priest had studied the subject, and nailed the key issues. I wonder where he studied, but was not able to find out.

I tried to find out with my Catholic lay leader friends about how to be able to study subjects so systematically. Most of the time the answer was the same:

In their view, one had to become a Priest, and particularly a theologian to be able to do such studies.

I was surprised that even they as lay leaders did not have access to the awesome curriculum / systematic knowledge, even though they are involved in different ministries like youth, marriage, small group, etc.

I hope the situation is not the same in the U.S., as I know that curriculum for lay leaders is very advanced there.

I am surprised that no guidance on how to effectively study systematics, moral theology, etc. is easily found.

Logos is helping making good resources available, But world class curriculum is still lacking.

For a change, I decided to take a look at the Ultimate Collection product page, and look at the different categories there. Then to look at the resources in a particular area, and pick some that seem important to my context and interest.  That way I can get some key elements (in my view) on that particular area.

Now with your advice, I will also look at the Bibliography to expand areas of interest, as curriculum does need to be contextualized.

Blessings.

Posts 164
LogosEmployee

Hamilton Ramos:

In their view, one had to become a Priest, and particularly a theologian to be able to do such studies.

Yes, exactly. Systematic Theology is an advanced academic degree studied in a Catholic university.  Even if one were to read "all of the books" one doesn't necessarily have the necessary understanding of those subjects without proper guidance.

But you, as a layperson, have other options.

Why not just use the Catechism as your guide?  In Verbum, that Catechism is already connected to Church-approved resources in your library.

The apologetics resources from places like Catholic Answers and Ignatius Press are also good guides to get the answers you want.

Additionally, Fr. Luke Dysinger, a professor at St. John's Seminary in Los Angeles and a Benedictine monk at St. Andrews Abbey outside of LA, has a great website with a lot of his seminary course information.  It's here: http://www.ldysinger.com/

Craig St. Clair | Verbum Product Manager |

Posts 583
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 23 2019 4:14 PM

Craig: thank you for a very constructive answer.

See I have high regard for true Catholics (devoted to God and Jesus Christ above all). The problem is that even if I am not a protestant, I do believe in the priesthood of all believers.

The gifts of the Spirit were given by Him to whoever He wanted, not to just some. 

We are to teach people to obey what Christ has commanded and to help facilitate having them be Christlike.

If through God one has been able to have a useful understanding (very contextual by the way) of God's reality and the study of it, I understand from the Bible that we are to put the light high so the whole place is lit and darkness dispersed.

There are true sheep out there that God wants to be cognizant of the truth. And I would not be surprised if there are more outside than in secluded seminaries.

To me is not understandable that persons charged with the teaching of things of God, at times seem to make it difficult. 

Faithlife in my view is doing a superb job, facilitating the availability of a huge library.

In my view now they only need to make a resource that touches upon the different curriculums and syllabi for different tracks, and for different traditions and / or denominations.

We are living more and more in an intercultural situation, and any person with a basic teaching background, knows that there is always the explicit, the implicit, and the ignored knowledge.

Many times some traditions are very good at something, they explicitly teach it, and at the same time are very ignorant of other areas relevant to the ministry.

Lay persons have a God given right to browse and study the full spectrum of traditions, and theological systems, so they are aware of the key points different views bring to the conversation. Such study is an undelegable responsibility of each individual believer, as salvation is individual, and we are expected to inquire about such important subject.

In theory one should at the very basic level do some research, as we may be getting theological constructs incompatible with the revealed truth of Scripture, or with the nature and character of God.

Denying the sheep the tools and information needed to do a rational inquiry to see if "things are so" is unethical and do not jibe with the Bible or the intent of God as transmitted by Jesus.

All of the above is of course an opinion from a non-expert sheep, that truly thinks that we were given rationality to inquire into things of God for salvation, for edification, and for helping with the Kingdom work, regardless of our status with respect of human made institutions.

Bonhoeffer seems to have thought that face to face instruction was needed for effective religious education. Then some modern thinkers think that platforms like Logos Bible software are useful to try to spread the Word and facilitate ministry work, is there a third option? is there a middle ground?

Change to have more technical support but within a local church setting would seem to fit the times, yet few sheep are encouraged to think about it and get involved:

https://faithlife.com/lexham-survey-of-theology/activity

http://www.cc-amesdsm.org/download/paradigmPapers/1_Creating%20a%20New%20Paradigm.pdf

https://faithlife.com/7506257/topics/7613?groupId=7506257&offset=0#latest

Like someone said before: Are we going to be part of the solution? are we going to get involved?

Pentecostals seem to be taking the lead:

https://faithlife.com/bible-engagement-project/activity

Resources plus curriculum, plus local church... seems like a winning combination.

Thanks for the input and the link.  Peace and grace.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 23 2019 4:37 PM

Craig St. Clair (Faithlife):

Hamilton Ramos:

In their view, one had to become a Priest, and particularly a theologian to be able to do such studies.

Yes, exactly. Systematic Theology is an advanced academic degree studied in a Catholic university.  Even if one were to read "all of the books" one doesn't necessarily have the necessary understanding of those subjects without proper guidance.

Hate to break it to you two but there are Catholic theologians who are (a) female and hence not priests and (b) lay persons. Aptitude, interest, education, and effort are required. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_philosophers_and_theologians

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 583
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 23 2019 7:06 PM

Hi MJ:

Totally agree with the facts you presented. I do think that anyone can become a theologian (even if amateur), and contrary to my Catholic lay leader friends (not sure where they got the info), females can also study. [they may not be ordained as Priest, but not sure if they can serve as Chaplains).

And my original question stands: can Logos Bible software help persons in their quest to become a(n) [amateur] theologian?

If so, why isn't someone making a detailed curriculum (together with the individual syllabus), to aid in the process?

To my understanding the world will eventually be filled of the Glory of God, and many if not all will know about God. Hopefully that time is arriving soon.

I did look at the At seminary curriculum you posted elsewhere. I could not find the details of the courses. I did find a Thomas Aquinas college (seems to be different), and they focus more on liberal arts education, and use a wide array of secular books.

Secular books are to me like auxiliary ones, but I would like to see some of the fine resources in L8 as the primary texts in courses.

John Kelly and Paul Costa in their book "End Time Warriors" made an analogy to US Special Forces. That got me thinking:

US Special Forces (Green Berets), do have working knowledge on weapons, demolitions, engineering (combat), medical, intelligence, etc.

They are not experts like an engineer in the Corps of Engineers would be, but know enough to get the job done in a mission.

Same for medical knowledge, not a MD, but more of an advanced paramedic, that can save lives in real life.

So in the "priesthood of all believers" something similar can be paralleled: 

Leaders that while not experts in original languages the way an academician is, can have sufficient knowledge to get to propositional truth, etc.

While not a fully systematic theologian, can take into consideration the whole counsel of God, and see the Diachronic relations and the intertextuality of concepts.

While not a fully fledged counsellor, can detect when a case is solvable, and when needs further referral.

While not a civic action expert, can organize and support community to achieve worthy goals (chosen by the community itself), while at the same time evangelizing.

While not a Liturgical / worship expert, can plant and help with healthy growth of a congregation.

While not an enthusiast, enough knowledge, experience with God and anointment, to wage basic spiritual warfare with spiritual forces of evil when needed...

And so on, so forth.

Peace and grace.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 23 2019 8:22 PM

Hamilton Ramos:
And my original question stands: can Logos Bible software help persons in their quest to become a(n) [amateur] theologian?

While Logos can certainly help a seminarian, their seminary already provides the curriculum and syllabi.

Studying with Logos alone won't be equivalent to an advanced degree program.

Amateur theologian? Can a person consider themselves a theologian without (pursuing) a theological degree?

Posts 5013
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 24 2019 12:41 AM

PetahChristian:

Amateur theologian? Can a person consider themselves a theologian without (pursuing) a theological degree?

We are not all called to be formally qualified and recognised theologians but we are all called to open our heart, mind and sole to reflect upon, speak of, talk about and write down the things of God we discover in the world around us and the scriptures and weigh up the words and writings on same things of those gone before us and those of our time. So yes in a sense we can all consider ourselves theologians without the need to pursue a formal academic degree. 

Hamilton in a sense FL has begun what you are suggesting, not just quite in a structured, organised, directed, formalised, methodic approach as you might desire, They have done so through mobile Ed courses. There are of course many areas not yet covered but hopefully will one day have appropriate courses offered. Part of the difficulty in trying to build a one size fits all study program through Logos is many are fixed in their traditions and beliefs. Mobile Ed courses won’t make us formally trained theologians but are stepping stones to dig deeper into topics through our libraries and the scriptures so that we might be better informed amateur theologians or at least bringing us closer to being so.

Posts 3047
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 24 2019 3:17 PM

PetahChristian:
Amateur theologian? Can a person consider themselves a theologian without (pursuing) a theological degree?

Since this is the Catholic Products forum, I will give the Catholic answer: No.

Posts 583
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 24 2019 7:30 PM

PetaChristian:

A degree is one thing, actually achieving the goals of a Christian education is another.

Many men of God were self-learners, and lo and behold Apostles (like no one in the modern world) had no studies at all and they all put us all to shame.

Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia had a curriculum module, you could browse the different curriculums available and they would indicate what articles from the encyclopedia to go to. It even had an area where you could gather the info including websites visited.

If secular systems can help humanity learn a bit, should not a Christ following one?

That mentality that sheep cannot learn on their own is part of the problem with people leaving Christendom, it is like if secular systems have more hope for humanity than religious institutions themselves (how un Jesus like).

PetahChristian:
Amateur theologian? Can a person consider themselves a theologian without (pursuing) a theological degree?

Again, there have been men and women of God that could put us all to shame and never visited a seminary, college, etc. think about it.

If we take some of the Scripture literally, then in order to be Jesus like, all we need is home training and local church, because He never went to college.

Small minds, equals very restrictive paradigms. God has the hugest mind, and He does not restrict us, but encourages us to learn more.

Kind Regards.

Posts 583
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 24 2019 7:55 PM

Disciple II:

Hear you loud and clear and totally agree. 

Microsoft Encarta  Encyclopedia just listed the different curriculums available, and one was free to choose what to choose or even combine.

Likewise, I am beginning to copy paste per area info from the highest Logos 8 packages in different traditions, and even Ultimate. Then I will make a list of the best looking resources and the topics that appear per area and per tradition, so that I can make my own curriculum.

One can get an idea by visiting Seminary webpages on how they put together the curriculum, and the way they go about doing particular classes in the syllabus.

What I prefer is that the resources chosen are in Logos 8, as that would facilitate making a collection, searching, etc.

If you look at a given area for all the different higher packages per tradition, you will come with gem resources for the area. once you have identified 5 or 6, you can start exploring.

When one takes a closer look at the packages Logos has created, then one is really appreciative of the effort and quality of the work done to make such packages available. Incredible labor, very commendable, and becoming of the highest standards of Christlike work of love and service.

One can also take a closer look to certain bundles:

https://www.logos.com/product/32816/zondervan-textbook-bundle

Themes, topics, and the like may be easy for those with formal training under their belt. For the not so fortunate, have to depend on what we can discern and receive from the unselfish guidance that people at Logos provide.

I really like Logos, even if I am just a plain sheep, and amateur theologian. It is a true blessing for those of us that cannot do formal training for varied reasons.

I hope God uses Logos to help fill the Earth with the knowledge of our creator and Savior.

Peace and grace.

Posts 583
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 24 2019 7:59 PM

With all due respect SineNomine:

tell that to Peter, John, James, Jesus, Stephen the deacon, etc. 

The Holy Spirit bestows gifts as He wants and to who He wants.  Was St. Francis a theologian by training? or was the power of the Holy Spirit moving in his life?

Kind regards.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 24 2019 9:30 PM

Hamilton Ramos:
lo and behold Apostles (like no one in the modern world) had no studies at all

They were not completely uneducated.

Luke was a physician. Paul was taught by Gamaliel. Others were probably synagogue-trained.

The disciples (meaning students, learners, followers) received years of education from their Master and Teacher.

Hamilton Ramos:

If we take some of the Scripture literally, then in order to be Jesus like, all we need is home training and local church, because He never went to college.

While there is no written account of this, do you think that His Jewish education stopped at 18? I imagine that He could quote and teach the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings, because He (being fully human as well as fully divine) learned from other teachers, as we do.

The local church’s job is not to educate theologians. Other theologians teach them.

Hamilton Ramos:

That mentality that sheep cannot learn on their own is part of the problem with people leaving Christendom

If sheep could merely learn on their own, they wouldn’t need a shepherd to watch over them.

We don’t simply learn on our own. We sit under more knowledgeable people, be it priests, pastors, professors, and learn from their teaching, knowledge, and experience.

Those people who teach us likely attended a seminary or bible college. They didn’t learn theology or exposition or original languages on their own.

Not dismissing Godly people who never went to seminary. But the flip side is that we shouldn’t dismiss the value of a seminary education.

Posts 5013
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 25 2019 12:04 AM

PetahChristian:

Hamilton Ramos:

If we take some of the Scripture literally, then in order to be Jesus like, all we need is home training and local church, because He never went to college.

While there is no written account of this, do you think that His Jewish education stopped at 18? I imagine that He could quote and teach the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings, because He (being fully human as well as fully divine) learned from other teachers, as we do.

The local church’s job is not to educate theologians. Other theologians teach them.

But is it part of the local churches role to equip it’s Christian members to be ready to serve, whether it be ministry within the church or outside the church with unbelievers. Peter calls us to be ready to give an answer for our faith. For some laity in the church this might look like basic theological and apologetic training provided by the local Church.

PetahChristian:

Hamilton Ramos:

That mentality that sheep cannot learn on their own is part of the problem with people leaving Christendom

If sheep could merely learn on their own, they wouldn’t need a shepherd to watch over them.

We don’t simply learn on our own. We sit under more knowledgeable people, be it priests, pastors, professors, and learn from their teaching, knowledge, and experience.

Do you truly believe what you just said ? That we can not learn on our own? If you do then what are you doing using Logos Bible Software and mobile Ed courses? Since you can not learn on your own what is the point? Are you saying that the fire within some lay people to learn and understand more deeply of theological topics and issues than can be done via the Sunday sermon / homily can not be of the Holy Spirit’s leading and is in fact wrong because they are wanting understanding beyond their station in life?

Yes we all need guidance from the formally called and recognised leaders within the church, but to sit back and say we shouldn’t make an effort to educate ourselves, to say we can not learn on our own then how does that fit in with the fact that we are all God’s image bearers ? Humanity does not have an issue with sef-learning as much as we do have a sin issue. An in order to become more Christ like, to become more like the image bearer that God intended us to be self-learning is a part of what each of us here on the forums are doing when we study the scriptures using Logos Bible Software. And I believe this is what Hamilton is trying to get at rather than suggesting we do not need those who are called to be Theologians or that the Church should be training such people. If you have read questions and posts Hamilton has written in the past what comes through strongly is he has a real desire, real passion to be honour God, to be all that God intended him to be, to follow his Word and to encourage and help others to do so and is always looking for ways to do these things bette in order to become more Christ-like,

Ultimately all our self learning efforts should be done under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Even those who are called to lead us in the church need this guidance for they struggle as much as the laity with the sin issue.

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 25 2019 12:38 AM

There is a reason that the Orthodox (mentor) and the Catholics (spiritual friendship or spiritual director) insist that learning be a communal act ... at least in the sense of having someone further along the path than you, listen, correct, and keep you honest. Furthermore, there is a reason the Jewish and Medieval Traditions have a tradition of "student partner"/"debate opponent" to keep one sharp in one's facts and logic. The same observation could be made of the Buddhists. Remember "pride cometh before the fall" (Proverbs 16:18 ... to be sure the topic is Logos). Better to have others call you a theologian than to assume the title for yourself to your own ruin.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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