Pbb R.I.P.?

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Shawn Drewett | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Jun 16 2010 7:10 AM

I’ve mentioned this before but the upcoming capability of L4 to read PBB’s must put Logos in a dilemma. Take for example the latest PrePub, Gill’s Works. $200.00 for the PrePub vs. $0.00 for the PBB. It makes me a bit nervous as to what may lay ahead for PBB’s. I have hundreds of PBB’s as do many of you, and hundreds of you out there will choose NOT to buy some of the PrePub offerings because in your mind, ( and mine), it is simple not worth paying for the extra perks for perfect integration within L4.

Seriously, how can Logos afford to continue the PBB program allowing the thousands of public domain works still out there to be read within Logos? To put it succinctly , PBB life as we know it may be soon ended. (I.e. Stilltruth.com, etc.) I look forward to any thoughts on this.

 

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 16 2010 7:33 AM

Logos has said that PBB is coming.  In fact, they've said it will be improved: http://www.logos.com/4/missingfeatures

What reason should we have not to believe them?

I think that it's been mentioned that PBBs may need to be rebuilt with a newer format, but I don't see any justification for calling them dead.

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Shawn Drewett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 16 2010 8:19 AM

Todd, I think you misunderstood or I didn't convey myself properly. I have been monitoring the forums regularly and know that PBB for L4 is coming the 3rd quarter of this year. My statement was meant for the long term. How long can they afford to allow public domain works to be made available using PBB when they are publishing them as Prepubs? I absolutely believe Logos when they say PBB for L4 is coming, but what will be it's (long term) limitations?  

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 16 2010 8:32 AM

Shawn Drewett:
My statement was meant for the long term.

To me "R.I.P." is used when something is clearly dead. Sorry I misunderstood.

Shawn Drewett:
How long can they afford to allow public domain works to be made available using PBB when they are publishing them as Prepubs?

Because the pre-pubs don't go to production before the pre-orders cover the costs.  So if people think that PBB is sufficient for a certain PD work, then the pre-pub won't make it to production, and Logos won't have spent money on it, and the effort they might have spent on it can be put towards a different work.

Your limitations question is a good one.  But the old PBB had limitations too (length, font, functionality - ones that caused me to shy away from PBB works), and people still used it.  I look forward to see how Logos plans to improve it.  Or do you mean some other sort of limitations?

So perhaps I'm not seeing exactly what it is you fear.

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 16 2010 8:54 AM

I agree that is seems somewhat odd that there are so many public domain works being offered on pre-pub right now with PBB in the offing. I don't think that means an end or change to PBBs but perhaps a significant cut-back on public domain offerings going forward.

We'll have to see how close new PBB works come to their full Logos models, and whether there are people who will invest the time to bring public domain works up to the level of quality a Logos-produced resource would have. The Logos pricing model would have to reflect these realities.

We haven't been told what sort of meta-data tagging we'll have in PBBs either. We might only be able to tag them as monographs and that would hamper some use of them for some people in some situations (that's vague isn't it?). It may well be that Logos sees PBBs as something few will use and their own works will succeed with the majority who don't understand or are unwilling to learn to find and use PBBs. As Todd said, no money will be spent by Logos on any of these works until they have enough commitments to cover cost.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 16 2010 10:08 AM

Shawn Drewett:
Seriously, how can Logos afford to continue the PBB program allowing the thousands of public domain works still out there to be read within Logos? To put it succinctly , PBB life as we know it may be soon ended. (I.e. Stilltruth.com, etc.) I look forward to any thoughts on this.

I said last January I doubt we ever get the 900+ Libronix PBBs converted to Logos 4.0 format. I do believe Bob Pritchett when he says we will have a PBB authoring capability in Logos 4. But I don't see why Logos should make the whole Libronix PBB library available when it would mean doing the same converting, polishing and maintenance of a retail Logos product (remember Bob said "no second class" resources) and have virtually no financial return on investment. I predict we will see some type of new format that has a cost associated with making it available. I imagine Logos will maintain strict control over what PBBs get published in the new format. I also would expect Logos to limit some public domain titles to retail only production. The rationale for this would be: "To maintain the highest quality standards of tagging, and formating for the benefit of the broad base of interested Logos users." So I doubt the current Logos 4 versions of public domain titles are in any danger of being replaced by "free" PBBs from the Libronix days or future user authorship.

Just my $.02 worth.                         (I have been eerily right more times than not. Althoogh nobody keeps a tallyZip it! )

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PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 16 2010 10:48 AM

Matthew and all,

Your points are all valid IF the new PBB's continue to be available for free to other users.

I thought I read somewhere (from Bob? or am I imagining it?) that the new PBB might be more like iPhone apps -- that there would be a marketplace for PBB's (with Logos maintaining some control like Apple controls the App Store), where PBB makers can charge for their PBB's.

IF that's the case, then there will be an ROI and a business model for PBB's for both Logos and PBB makers.  And the PBB's can have the same format and capabilities as other Logos resources, and enjoy first-class citizen status.

I'm not sure if I'm off, but this scenario sounds exciting to me.

Peter

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BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 16 2010 10:58 AM

Shawn Drewett:
Seriously, how can Logos afford to continue the PBB program allowing the thousands of public domain works still out there to be read within Logos?

Badsed on my experience (admittedly small, only on books I really cared about) with books that I had on PBB & then purchased, I'm prepared to continue believing Logos when they say their books will always be "better" (more thoroughly linked, etc.) than any equivalent PBB. And I personally believe we won't ever get full access to the entire non-pbb Logos tool suite in a pbb. I'm ok with that...

Personally, I'm thankful they provide a way for us to get access to the public domain works that aren't economically viable (or perhaps strategic?) for them to produce & am content to remain thankful. Smile

 

Grace & Peace,
Bill


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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 16 2010 12:18 PM

Speculation, speculation ...as this thread is replete with it, I get to add my speculation.

Creating a fully indexed Logos 4 resource is a time intensive process. If you are an individual working on a PBB it would be even more time consuming because you would probably need to look-up the supported topic tags etc. Why? Because its not your full time job so they don't become "automatic." The quality and the availability of PBB's will have a direct relationship to what people have the motive to do - both in terms of texts and in terms on tagging. I doubt very much that Logos will place great weight on whether or not a resource is available as a PBB when they select public domain works for publication. I do expect that individuals making PBB's will be much more cautious with copyright material, especially if they aren't offering it for free.

What I wish Logos could provide us with now, is information on the format of the test going into the PBB Builder (yes, that's redundant) - not the links just if XML. HTML or RTF is the base text. Then I could have some test cases prepared for the upcoming beta.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 16 2010 12:36 PM

PeterLi:
Your points are all valid IF the new PBB's continue to be available for free to other users.

That is the part I don't get. How can a new PBB cost nothing and still give a ROI? Somebody is going to foot the bill.

I'm not complaining. The biggest drawback under my perceived model will be waiting for Logos to publish the public domain works I am most interested in. (Alexander Campbell, Barton Stone, Moses Lard, Raccoon John Smith, Walter Scott, David Lipscomb & Benjamin Franklin) Even if these authors are put into L4 PBB format by the user community, it will probably have to wait in line for Logos to finesse the files.

I don't mind paying for public domain access. I just don't want to wait. Snail

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 16 2010 12:43 PM

Matthew C Jones:

PeterLi:
Your points are all valid IF the new PBB's continue to be available for free to other users.

That is the part I don't get. How can a new PBB cost nothing and still give a ROI? Somebody is going to foot the bill.

I would expect the question of payment for PBB's to be an issue determined by the creator of the PBB - whether they consider their work to be public service or effort for which they should receive some compensation. For myself that would depend on:

  • the effort required to produce the work
  • my arrangement with the copyright holder
  • my motivation for generating the resource
  • my costs, if any, in producing the resource

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Shawn Drewett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 16 2010 1:20 PM

Guys, thanks for all these comments. I've learned some things. My hope is that I will be able to access the PBB's that I now have within L3.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 16 2010 1:43 PM

Shawn Drewett:
My hope is that I will be able to access the PBB's that I now have within L3.

I believe someone will have to reformat them for L4 before they will be available in L4. That is a ugly sentence, but you can get the point. Geeked

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JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 16 2010 2:17 PM

I look forward to whatever PBB will add to the mix - bring it on!!!

However, even if I could type or scan an old word in PBB format, in most every case, I won't have access to the original book.

So, someone that has the book will need to do it first. Then someone needs to do formatting, tagging, linking etc.

Or, just maybe, many of use would pay US$19.95 to just have it all done, tagged and ready to go by Logos.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 16 2010 2:20 PM

Jack Caviness:
I believe someone will have to reformat them for L4 before they will be available in L4.

I don't know about this but I know that several of us have asked that it not be done automatically so that we can release them as we see fit.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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