BrillDAG (Brill Dictionary of Ancient Greek) article structure and symbols

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This post has 16 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 33
Jim Darlack | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Oct 1 2019 1:28 PM

It's great to have this resource [and at an affordable (pre-publication) price]. I do have a few observations:

  • The "Visual Guide" that explains the structure of each lexical entry, including symbols like the diamond (♦) or the "black right-pointing triangle" (▶) is lacking (though it is printed in color inside the cover of the print edition). For those interested, the visual guide is available online at https://brill.com/fileasset/downloads_products/34732_Preview.pdf.
  • A greater concern is that these symbols are inconsistently placed in the text (in comparison to the print version.) See examples below:

This first is the image of the entry on agathos in the print edition of the GE. Note the use of the boxes and circles around the numbers and letters indicating different parts of the entry (green arrows). Notice also the use of the right-facing triangles that provide visual cues to breaks in the entry.


Screenshot-8

Now, compare that with the screenshot from Logos below. The purple arrows show that the main numbered parts of the entry get a bit 'lost' in the text. This is particularly the case with the letters in the outline (see green arrows). For instance, see the "a" in "good: a well-born, noble" where the "a" is in  the same bold font as the text, while in the print edition, the "a" is enclosed in a box: 🄰. The right-facing triangles (▶) are non-existent (see blue arrows).

Screenshot-9

I do hope that further revisions of this lexicon will include these typographical indicators that make the lexicon more user-friendly. Perhaps it could also be enhanced in a way similar to how BDAG has been presented in outline form rather than in straight paragraph form.

Posts 488
Brian W. Davidson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 1 2019 2:32 PM

Thank you for pointing out these these things — especially the difference between the print presentation and the presentation in Logos’ first release.

Posts 1011
LogosEmployee
Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 1 2019 2:58 PM

Jim Darlack:

I do hope that further revisions of this lexicon will include these typographical indicators that make the lexicon more user-friendly. Perhaps it could also be enhanced in a way similar to how BDAG has been presented in outline form rather than in straight paragraph form.

We're already on it. I think the text will be more clear in two weeks when we push out an update.

The visual filter might be a longer time coming but seems very plausible.

Posts 275
Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 1 2019 9:21 PM

I noticed the same bold letters (your purple arrows above) also.  I wasn’t aware we could point these things out.  Just thought I would have to live w. it.  

But, I *DID* think that this could be very confusing if someone doesn’t know how to read a lexicon.

Good to see they’re already on it.  Good review.

Posts 488
Brian W. Davidson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 2 2019 4:54 AM

Awesome!

Posts 33
Jim Darlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 2 2019 5:23 AM

Kyle G. Anderson:
We're already on it. I think the text will be more clear in two weeks when we push out an update. The visual filter might be a longer time coming but seems very plausible.
Excellent, Kyle. I'm glad you are "on the ball". :)

Posts 33
Jim Darlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 2 2019 5:23 AM

Kyle G. Anderson:
We're already on it. I think the text will be more clear in two weeks when we push out an update. The visual filter might be a longer time coming but seems very plausible.
Excellent, Kyle. I'm glad you are "on the ball". :)

Posts 33
Jim Darlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 2 2019 5:23 AM

Kyle G. Anderson:
We're already on it. I think the text will be more clear in two weeks when we push out an update. The visual filter might be a longer time coming but seems very plausible.
Excellent, Kyle. I'm glad you are "on the ball". :)

Posts 17
Luke Wadel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 2 2019 10:35 PM

Kyle G. Anderson:

We're already on it. I think the text will be more clear in two weeks when we push out an update.

The visual filter might be a longer time coming but seems very plausible.

Thank you for letting us know, and I hope those working on these things know that many of us are very grateful for all their work. God bless.

Posts 435
Adam Olean | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 17 2019 7:08 PM

Kyle G. Anderson:

Jim Darlack:

I do hope that further revisions of this lexicon will include these typographical indicators that make the lexicon more user-friendly. Perhaps it could also be enhanced in a way similar to how BDAG has been presented in outline form rather than in straight paragraph form.

We're already on it. I think the text will be more clear in two weeks when we push out an update.

The visual filter might be a longer time coming but seems very plausible.

Kyle and Faithlife team, thank you for the improvements to Brill's GE. I am truly grateful to have this lexicon in my Logos library! I wasn't initially excited when I first heard about it some years ago, but now I've prioritized it as my number one Greek lexicon, due mostly to its coverage and readability.

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/185303/1068654.aspx#1068654 

Now all of you can get to work on the Cambridge Greek Lexicon, not to mention the new reference grammarWink

https://www.classics.cam.ac.uk/research/projects/glp 

Posts 435
Adam Olean | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 17 2019 7:14 PM

Brian W. Davidson:

Thank you for pointing out these these things — especially the difference between the print presentation and the presentation in Logos’ first release.

Indeed, thank you, Jim, for providing such clear details and illustrations on the Logos Edition of GE / BrillDAG. The improvements are well worth the effort!

Posts 492
Brad | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 17 2019 8:15 PM

Thank you!

Posts 275
Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 17 2019 10:40 PM

Adam Olean:

Kyle G. Anderson:

Jim Darlack:

I do hope that further revisions of this lexicon will include these typographical indicators that make the lexicon more user-friendly. Perhaps it could also be enhanced in a way similar to how BDAG has been presented in outline form rather than in straight paragraph form.

We're already on it. I think the text will be more clear in two weeks when we push out an update.

The visual filter might be a longer time coming but seems very plausible.

Kyle and Faithlife team, thank you for the improvements to Brill's GE. I am truly grateful to have this lexicon in my Logos library! I wasn't initially excited when I first heard about it some years ago, but now I've prioritized it as my number one Greek lexicon, due mostly to its coverage and readability.

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/185303/1068654.aspx#1068654 

Now all of you can get to work on the Cambridge Greek Lexicon, not to mention the new reference grammarWink

https://www.classics.cam.ac.uk/research/projects/glp 

Wowsie!  I have seen this lexicon (Cambridge) on Amazon & wondered about it.  Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought that BrillDAG was the updated classical lexicon (?) in that it has been touted as essentially a replacement for LSJ.  Or, is it that the Cambridge lexicon is strictly Classical Greek—hence the distinction?

Either way, I will be gunning for this lexicon also!  Thanks Adam...the remainder of my night will now be spent researching this lexicon👍🤓.

Posts 33
Jim Darlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 18 2019 7:03 AM

Jim Darlack:
It's great to have this resource [and at an affordable (pre-publication) price]. I do have a few observations:

  • The "Visual Guide" that explains the structure of each lexical entry, including symbols like the diamond (♦) or the "black right-pointing triangle" (▶) is lacking (though it is printed in color inside the cover of the print edition). For those interested, the visual guide is available online at https://brill.com/fileasset/downloads_products/34732_Preview.pdf.
  • A greater concern is that these symbols are inconsistently placed in the text (in comparison to the print version.) See examples below:

This first is the image of the entry on agathos in the print edition of the GE. . . . Now, compare that with the screenshot from Logos below. . . . I do hope that further revisions of this lexicon will include these typographical indicators that make the lexicon more user-friendly. Perhaps it could also be enhanced in a way similar to how BDAG has been presented in outline form rather than in straight paragraph form.

I just downloaded the latest update and it contains a SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT over the first release!

Screenshot-2

Note the added use of the numbers with black-box backgrounds (red arrows) and letters with white circles (blue arrows). Note also the inclusion of the "black right-pointing triangle" (▶; green arrows) and the diamond (♦; purple arrow).

The backgrounding of the outline numbers and letters is reversed from the print edition in that the numbers have black square backgrounds in the Logos ed., but in the print ed. the numbers have black circle backgrounds. Likewise, the Logos ed. has letters with white circle backgrounds, but in the print ed., the letters have white circle backgrounds. No doubt this has more to do with the limitations of Unicode than anything, and it subtracts little from the organization of each entry.

GREAT JOB ON THE UPDATE!

Posts 1011
LogosEmployee
Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 18 2019 9:25 AM

Jim Darlack:

The backgrounding of the outline numbers and letters is reversed from the print edition in that the numbers have black square backgrounds in the Logos ed., but in the print ed. the numbers have black circle backgrounds. Likewise, the Logos ed. has letters with white circle backgrounds, but in the print ed., the letters have white circle backgrounds. No doubt this has more to do with the limitations of Unicode than anything, and it subtracts little from the organization of each entry.

GREAT JOB ON THE UPDATE!

Thanks. I'm glad you're liking it. 

And you're correct. It has to do with limited unicode options.

There's a few more changes/fixes/improvements I'd like to make so I don't consider this "finished" in any way. I'd really like to get a visual filter created so it can expand and contract like BDAG.

Posts 488
Brian W. Davidson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 18 2019 3:33 PM

Thank you so much for taking the formatting seriously. This is wonderful.

Posts 17
Luke Wadel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 18 2019 9:39 PM

Thank you very much from me also, to all who are working on this. I'm really hoping that it will get a visual filter like in the BDAG too.

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