Why the Repeated, Sequential Indexing?

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Oct 10 2019 12:08 PM

Just about every time I open L8 now, I have to wait for indexing to finish. And again. And again.

I'm seeing two, three, or even four consecutive sequential indexing sequences. A few things will download, and L8 will index. As soon as it is done, a few more things download, and it indexes again. This is incredibly inefficient.

While indexing, much as it has for the last ten years since L4, indexing pretty much locks up my computer. I can live with one cycle of indexing, but multiple cycles are almost intolerable.

I started L8 about an hour ago, and I'm now in my third download/indexing cycle. It took me 7+ minutes just to get this forum thread posted, because of how slow the machine runs during indexing.

Each time I go through this, I'm drawn to Gen. Berenger's quote from War Games-

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2019 12:22 PM

A consequence of a large library is more frequent updates. Tongue Tied Make sure to turn automatic downloads off. This will allow you to download and index less often. 

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2019 12:26 PM

JT (alabama24):
turn automatic downloads off. This will allow you to download and index less often

No, not really. It still indexes multiple times when I run the downloads. That's my primary question: Why doesn't it download and then index one time?

It didn't used to do this, at least not most of the time. And occasionally, it doesn't now, but it does most of the time.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 18818
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2019 12:32 PM

I feel your pain. I have 30,000+ resources in my library. I rarely use Logos anymore it is so bogged down. And that's not even when it's Indexing. It's just SLOW. Can't even switch to it and start typing something in the Library filter box without waiting 5-10 seconds for it to "wake up" and start accepting input. And every time I open the app if I happened to have had a Search tab open the last time I shut it down, it has to go and redo that search which I don't care about anymore, which can't be interrupted. Ditto for Guide tabs. I've always complained that old Search & Guide tabs should *not* rerun by default when the app is reopened, but should require the user to ask for them to be rerun if the user wants that, which I'd guess would be < 5% of the time.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2019 1:43 PM

Rosie Perera:
And every time I open the app if I happened to have had a Search tab open the last time I shut it down, it has to go and redo that search which I don't care about anymore, which can't be interrupted. Ditto for Guide tabs. I've always complained that old Search & Guide tabs should *not* rerun by default when the app is reopened, but should require the user to ask for them to be rerun if the user wants that, which I'd guess would be < 5% of the time.

+1 Yes along with New Search tab repeating last search, which wastes more time since did not need last search run again before doing a New search (would be OK with last search appearing in New tab, but needing user to click arrow to run it). If had wanted to rerun previous Search, would have chosen "Duplicate This Panel" 

FYI: before closing Logos for an application upgrade, personal quirk is closing search & guide tabs.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2019 1:47 PM

Doc B:
Why doesn't it download and then index one time?

I think it does. I think however, that you likely had a software update too. When that happens, there are several moving parts. 

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2019 2:31 PM

Doc B:
Just about every time I open L8 now, I have to wait for indexing to finish. And again. And again.

Part of the solution is not to close Logos i.e. keep it open until a restart is requested (along with turning off Auto Start Downloads).

The the next dependency is the resources that are in your layout and the datasets you have used, because a restart will be required if they are being updated. There is not much you can do about that, apart from deliberately restarting Logos to a blank layout when a download is notified.

If indexing has started and a software update requires a restart, then don't do it until indexing has completed.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2019 3:40 PM

Some of the responses you have got DOC B give me the impression people are not listening to your concerns but simply thinking ahead to the quick defence they can provide to basically say to you ‘suck it up, it is what it is’, just in a normal nicer sounding way. 

I know exactly what you are talking about, this would still happen if you only ever updated manually. It’s not that you have to update, it’s that the architecture of the software and it’s update process that it requires multiple downloads, updates and restarts ( and user interventions) because multiple things are waiting in the queue at once instead of this queue being managed in the background and hidden from the user. As it stands your computer becomes unusable but you have to sit their and watch it, and press the button to go to the next step in the sequence, so you become unproductive too.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2019 4:46 PM

Dave Hooton:
Part of the solution is not to close Logos

It is interesting that you suggest this because this has been my strategy for some time.

But I also agree that the speed of starting Logos is an issue that needs to be improved.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2019 7:52 PM

Rosie Perera:
And every time I open the app if I happened to have had a Search tab open the last time I shut it down, it has to go and redo that search

This is counterbalanced by a reopen closed tab of a search remembering nothing of it's state when closed ... anyone remember when the counterbalance technology was used for cable cars on Queen Anne? but I digress . . .

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2019 7:59 PM

DIsciple II:
Some of the responses you have got DOC B give me the impression people are not listening to your concerns but simply thinking ahead to the quick defence they can provide to basically say to you ‘suck it up, it is what it is’, just in a normal nicer sounding way. 

Perhaps you thought I was one of the ones who was implying "suck it up" but I was not. I was heaping abuse on Logos for being so slow (in other areas as well). Essentially commiserating with the OP.

I just brought a brand new laptop, asked for one with sizzling fast specs (https://www.msi.com/Laptop/GS65-Stealth-Thin-8RF), and had them upgrade it to 32GB of super-fast RAM (G.SKILL Ripjaws DDR4-2400 SO-DIMM) and a 2TB SSD (WD Black SN750 2TB PCIe Gen3 x4 NVMe M.2 2280 Read:3400Mb/s,Write: 2900MB/s). Installed Logos fresh on it, let it download everything and complete indexing, and was disappointed already at the speed. Ugh. I'm really tired of this.

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Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2019 10:13 PM

Rosie Perera:

Perhaps you thought I was one of the ones who was implying "suck it up" but I was not. I was heaping abuse on Logos for being so slow (in other areas as well). Essentially commiserating with the OP.

I just brought a brand new laptop, asked for one with sizzling fast specs (https://www.msi.com/Laptop/GS65-Stealth-Thin-8RF), and had them upgrade it to 32GB of super-fast RAM (G.SKILL Ripjaws DDR4-2400 SO-DIMM) and a 2TB SSD (WD Black SN750 2TB PCIe Gen3 x4 NVMe M.2 2280 Read:3400Mb/s,Write: 2900MB/s). Installed Logos fresh on it, let it download everything and complete indexing, and was disappointed already at the speed. Ugh. I'm really tired of this.

I'm sure someone will be in any moment to explain that you just need to get an SSD in order to... Oh.

(I don't have an SSD, but I still refuse to accept that it's thus necessary for Logos to take a full 30 seconds to switch to the homepage from my current layout.)

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2019 11:41 PM

Rosie I did not read your response that way. You showed you had fully read DOC B’s concerns and identified with them.

I have a similar sized library to you so I know you get the pain. My machine is a couple of years old now and fairly basic spec. I will need to consider a new one next year with Logos 9 way expected and finally get a SSD. I know I’m late to that party but playing with hardware is not my thing so I don’t do DIY upgrades. 

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2019 11:47 PM

Sean:

I'm sure someone will be in any moment to explain that you just need to get an SSD in order to... Oh.

(I don't have an SSD, but I still refuse to accept that it's thus necessary for Logos to take a full 30 seconds to switch to the homepage from my current layout.)

If anyone suggests that not having a SSD causes this to take 30 secs clearly they have drunk the full carton of FL Kool Aid. 

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 10 2019 11:47 PM

DIsciple II:
Some of the responses you have got DOC B give me the impression people are not listening to your concerns but simply thinking ahead to the quick defence they can provide to basically say to you ‘suck it up, it is what it is’, just in a normal nicer sounding way. 

The response that is needed has to come from Faithlife, and Rosie has complained about her situation over several years. Just as Libronix began to hit a wall when resources reached one thousand (or earlier), Logos is suffering with resources over nine thousand (or so).  I have 2250, and no real issues with my strategy (above).

Unfortunately, Rosie and DocB may have to consider offloading resources to the "cloud" (or perform a fresh install with "Recommended" resources). They can at least Search their Library in the Cloud when necessary, or download resources when needed.

Dave
===

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2019 12:05 AM

Dave Hooton:
Unfortunately, Rosie and DocB may have to consider offloading resources to the "cloud" (or perform a fresh install with "Recommended" resources). They can at least Search their Library in the Cloud when necessary, or download resources when needed.
Having the Text Creation Partnership, I have > 50,000 resources which have been divided between hidden and active for years. Now I split the active group between cloud and local. But that has no effect on my longest wait times ... building the pick lists ... My system would speedy up significantly if the app simply accepted what I typed rather than insisted I selected from the $#&&*^*& list which does a %^(^&(^&*( job of even offering the right option on a multipart name in Factbook. The initial loads are measured in minutes not seconds.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 18818
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2019 12:07 AM

Dave Hooton:
Unfortunately, Rosie and DocB may have to consider offloading resources to the "cloud" (or perform a fresh install with "Recommended" resources). They can at least Search their Library in the Cloud when necessary, or download resources when needed.

Ugh. I've already long ago given up curating my library by tagging thoroughly and creating useful collections, after I hit about 200 of the latter, most of which were never completely accurate because I have so many resources. I just don't have time for all that library management. And now you're saying I also need to manage which resources I have locally on my machine and which ones are in the cloud? And wait to download a resource every time I want to open one that isn't one of the "Recommended" resources? Ugh.

I guess my enthusiasm about buying every resource that looked potentially interesting to me over the years ended up being my downfall.

I've spent $169,854.51 on my Logos Library over nearly 30 years. Feeling like I've spent about $150,000 too much. Sad

Posts 21
David J Heintzman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2019 1:54 AM

I came here tonight out of frustration after attempting to install Logos on a new computer, and came across this thread.  The thing will be indexing all night, and for now the computer is unusable.  I can honestly say that I've never encountered another piece of software that behaves in this way.  Even on a good day the software of late feels so sluggish at times.  Something with such incredible capabilities should be a joy to use, but using Logos has become pretty joyless lately.

My experience tonight reminded me of a blog post Bob wrote way back in 2007, so I went looking for it and found it.  It's entitled "When I Hit the Button, Do Something!"  He wrote:

"Despite the increasing computational capacity of our devices, the problem seems to be getting worse. User interface responsiveness seems to lie low on the list of priorities in many contemporary electronic devices.

There’s not much I can add to Dennis Forbes’ post except “Amen!”.

Talk about irony!  No other piece of software I own exemplifies this sentiment the way Logos does.  It seems that "user interface responsiveness" is quite low on the priority list lately.

His post can be found here: http://bobpritchett.com/2007/08/when_i_hit_the_button_do_somet/

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2019 2:57 AM

Dave Hooton:
The response that is needed has to come from Faithlife

Never has a truer word been spoken on these forums.

We need to be open and honest with FL about this issues and their impact and not just explain them away on behalf of FL when somebody does raise a problem.  FL need to feel the weight of user expectations, frustrations and disappointments otherwise management will continue to think everything is fine and dandy.  And I am sure they don't want users who have reached 9,000 titles to all of a sudden stop buying resources because the software can't handle it. 

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2019 2:59 AM

Doc B:
I started L8 about an hour ago, and I'm now in my third download/indexing cycle. It took me 7+ minutes just to get this forum thread posted, because of how slow the machine runs during indexing.

Sounds abnormal so curious about storage device ? Also curious if have contacted Faithlife Technical Support about download/index cycles ?

Embarrassed Mea culpa after reading Sean's reply about SSD. Description of 7+ minutes to get a forum thread posted sounds like a hard drive (so indexing adversely affects performance of other computer tasks as indexing reads & writes a lot to disk). Since migrating to SSD years ago had forgotten about hard drive bottleneck (hard drive can only read/write to one place on whole disk at a time while SSD can read/write many storage places simultaneously).

MJ. Smith:
But that has no effect on my longest wait times ... building the pick lists ... My system would speedy up significantly if the app simply accepted what I typed rather than insisted I selected from the $#&&*^*& list which does a %^(^&(^&*( job of even offering the right option on a multipart name in Factbook.

Dreaming of customization options for automated assistance. For original languages, my preference is root and lemma (seldom search for specific conjugated form). Search suggestion annoyance is Large Text for ([field largetext] ...). Personally would rather turn off pick list assistance since does not help my Bible study (but rather slows down study that includes pick list appearing after search is in progress OR appear again after search - tab selection change OR resize window).

Dave Hooton:
Unfortunately, Rosie and DocB may have to consider offloading resources to the "cloud" (or perform a fresh install with "Recommended" resources). They can at least Search their Library in the Cloud when necessary, or download resources when needed.

Another option is a big purchased library and a small demonstration library. Initially created a secondary Faithlife account for demonstration purposes. Demonstration account with $ 0.00 order total has Logos 7+8 Basic, Verbum 7+8 Basic, Home School, Logos 8 Fundamentals (Thankful for Logos 8 Upgrade including free Logos 7 Fundamentals gift so Logos 8 Fundamentals upgrade was $ 20 that was covered by a Faithlife coupon). Thankful can use Logos 8 & Verbum 8 at the same time. Demonstration account is often useful for forum questions and personal Bible study (smaller library of 466 resources with 112 in the cloud can be noticeably faster than larger library having 28,000+ resources). Demonstration account was also useful for migrating shared Faithlife documents (especially collections and visual filters) that were bogging down purchased library.

Rosie Perera:
I just brought a brand new laptop, asked for one with sizzling fast specs (https://www.msi.com/Laptop/GS65-Stealth-Thin-8RF), and had them upgrade it to 32GB of super-fast RAM (G.SKILL Ripjaws DDR4-2400 SO-DIMM) and a 2TB SSD (WD Black SN750 2TB PCI-Express 3.0 x4 NVMe M.2 2280 Read:3400Mb/s,Write: 2900MB/s). Installed Logos fresh on it, let it download everything and complete indexing, and was disappointed already at the speed. Ugh. I'm really tired of this.

I'm sorry for really tired of this (while wondering if Faithlife understands what is disappointing for daily use).

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