Wow, studying the Vulgate in Logos is rubbish

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Posts 461
Liam & Abi Maguire | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Oct 11 2019 7:13 AM

So I'm a full-blooded protestant. But after years of trying to learn Greek, I've finally thrown in the towel. I have a workable understanding of the language, basic vocab, and enough familiarity with the language to know that 'Power of God' in Romans 1 doesn't mean 'the dynamite of God'! 

On a whim, I thought I'd give (classical) Latin a crack on Duolingo and it turns out I have a real knack for it. Who knew? Having done some reading about the differences between classical and ecclesiastical Latin I was excited to turn to Logos and give the [Clementine] Vulgate a try.

Boy was I in for a disappointment. The Lexham Latin-English Interlinear Vulgate provides basic lexical entries but no English gloss (Cf. Hebrew and Greek counterparts). The Reverse interlinear pane gives correspondence to respective Hebrew and Greek words, but no English ones. And there aren't even any Latin tools in the Bible Word Guide.  

There are over a billion Catholics in the world, right? And the Vulgate was the Western churches primary bible for what 1500 Years? Not to mention the language of the Western Fathers, Thomas Aquinas, Luther, and Calvin. Hello, is this thing on? 

Come on Faithlife, sort it out.

Liam

Check out my blog 'For Fathers'

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2019 7:30 AM

A gloss versus a lexical definition? In the greek and hebrew, both are often wrong. I'd think sense was better. And which latin or greek has an interlinear pane? 

Plus it shows dual morphing. Quite unusual.

True, BWG and Sense Lexicon.

Added:

Looking at Bibleworks, no linterlinear or formal analytical lexicon, but a whole lot faster to learn (displayed latin analytics). But that was BW's claim to fame.


Posts 461
Liam & Abi Maguire | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2019 8:11 AM

Thanks for your speedy reply Denise. I have since done some checking, and you are correct that none of my Greek NTs has an interlinear pane so I am more than happy to concede on that point. 

As to the interlinears, hopefully, this image will illustrate my frustration. Below is a screenshot of The Lexham Latin-English Interlinear Vulgate on the left and The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament: SBL Edition the right. 

Right (Greek) provides a 'literal' English translation as well as indicating which words are supplied and numbers to indicate how to order the words in English. 

Left, a hotchpotch of lexicon definitions, with no indication which is the correct one, no help with words that need supplying, no help with English word order. It's a mess.

I appreciate your point that gloss and lexicons are often wrong or inaccurate, but they still have value when translating a passage. I don't think that value has been best put to use in the LLEIV.

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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2019 8:45 AM

I would like to provide a dissident view - but please don't take me seriously.

When children learn a language, they don't have any dictionary/lexicon/grammar/textbook.

They just figure out the meanings.

English uses many Latin words, and you can just read Vulgate and figure out the meanings. 

The meanings are usually slightly off each other, but reasonably near and it is quite fun to do such a detective work.

*****

Pronunciation of Latin is a different story. The computer's read aloud feature is geared to English, and Latin will sound terrible. A good reader tool is needed for Latin.

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Mike Tourangeau | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2019 11:55 AM

Liam & Abi Maguire:
On a whim, I thought I'd give (classical) Latin a crack on Duolingo and it turns out I have a real knack for it. Who knew?

I find these type of things fascinating, some people seem to be hardwired for particular (often undiscovered) abilities. Makes me want to try new things...... 

Posts 2307
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2019 1:58 PM

Veli Voipio:

When children learn a language, they don't have any dictionary/lexicon/grammar/textbook.

They just figure out the meanings.

There's a truth in this when you read the Bible.enough. You pick up a "Bible sense" to word meanings. 

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 609
Steve Maling | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2019 3:27 PM

Liam, might the Analytical Lexicon of the Vulgate be of interest? https://www.logos.com/product/148408/analytical-lexicon-of-the-vulgate

Two additional Logos resources that might help are: 1) Dictionary of  the Vulgate New Testament (https://www.logos.com/product/2138/dictionary-of-the-vulgate-new-testament ); and 2) Lewis and Short's Latin Dictionary (https://www.logos.com/product/16014/lewis-and-shorts-latin-dictionary ) Lewis and Short give attention to the Vulgate as well as more broadly to Patristic and Ecclesiastical Latin. You can set up a Link Set between your Vulgate and Lewis and Short to find definitions of "your word".

Finally, don't overlook the The Douay-Rheims Bible which is such a "literal" translation of the Vulgate that it can be helpful in a Link Set.

Posts 609
Steve Maling | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2019 4:26 PM

Liam, I can't imagine how I forgot what might be the best resource of all for your purposes, the Dictionary of Latin Forms (https://www.logos.com/product/15716/dictionary-of-latin-forms ).

Posts 3152
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 14 2019 9:48 AM

Liam & Abi Maguire:
Left, a hotchpotch of lexicon definitions, with no indication which is the correct one, no help with words that need supplying, no help with English word order. It's a mess.

Your Greek is much better than my Greek, but with my Latin, I vastly prefer the interlinear approach on the left. If it functioned as does the interlinear on the right, it would effectively be a translation of the Latin with the words re-arranged. (And if I were to do that myself, I'd indubitably be translating some of the Latin words using English ones not presently given in the interlinear, which I don't see as a problem.) If I want an English translation of the Vulgate, I can use one; that's not what I'm looking for in an interlinear.

Posts 461
Liam & Abi Maguire | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 16 2019 12:14 AM

Steve Maling:

Liam, might the Analytical Lexicon of the Vulgate be of interest? https://www.logos.com/product/148408/analytical-lexicon-of-the-vulgate

Two additional Logos resources that might help are: 1) Dictionary of  the Vulgate New Testament (https://www.logos.com/product/2138/dictionary-of-the-vulgate-new-testament ); and 2) Lewis and Short's Latin Dictionary (https://www.logos.com/product/16014/lewis-and-shorts-latin-dictionary ) Lewis and Short give attention to the Vulgate as well as more broadly to Patristic and Ecclesiastical Latin. You can set up a Link Set between your Vulgate and Lewis and Short to find definitions of "your word".

Finally, don't overlook the The Douay-Rheims Bible which is such a "literal" translation of the Vulgate that it can be helpful in a Link Set.

Thank you so much for point these out Steve Mailing. They are very helpful resources!

Check out my blog 'For Fathers'

Posts 461
Liam & Abi Maguire | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 16 2019 12:27 AM

Veli Voipio:

I would like to provide a dissident view - but please don't take me seriously.

When children learn a language, they don't have any dictionary/lexicon/grammar/textbook.

This is is essentially how Duolingo works too. However, it is often difficult to work out endings this way. For example, this approach might help you learn the Latin word for 'teacher' (magister) but is probably not going to be much help working out the differences between magister, magistrum, magistra, etc. You might be able to work out the changes in meaning in context but not why the word looks the way it does. Though perhaps that is less of a problem for those who only want to read Latin and not write Latin....

Either, I'd love to see Latin brought into the Morphological Charts interactive. 

Veli Voipio:

Pronunciation of Latin is a different story. The computer's read aloud feature is geared to English, and Latin will sound terrible. A good reader tool is needed for Latin.

Oh yes, a good reader is a need for sure. Though, that said, like Greek, I think pronunciation for dead languages is somewhat academic. In Greek some favour the Erasmian approach, other the historical reconstructive approach. My wife studied Latin at school for a year and she was horrified to hear me rolling my 'R's, yet this is the pronunciation Duolingo taught me to use. Who's to say which is correct?

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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 16 2019 12:37 AM

Liam & Abi Maguire:
Either, I'd love to see Latin brought into the Morphological Charts interactive. 

Yes

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 16 2019 12:48 AM

Liam & Abi Maguire:
However, it is often difficult to work out endings this way. For example, this approach might help you learn the Latin word for 'teacher' (magister) but is probably not going to be much help working out the differences between magister, magistrum, magistra, etc. You might be able to work out the changes in meaning in context but not why the word looks the way it does.

That has not been my experience using Lingua Latina in Verbum

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Posts 461
Liam & Abi Maguire | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 16 2019 12:51 AM

Thanks, SineNomine. This gave me pause for thought. 

I guess maybe I'd gotten used to the way the Greek Interlinear for so long that when I open up the Latin interlinear I was shocked that it didn't look the same. Also, whilst I was never trying to conform my translation to the Greek interlinear I did use it to check i was in the correct ballpark if you know what I mean? Maybe, I was too dependant on the rearranged translation? 

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 16 2019 10:38 AM

Liam & Abi Maguire:
I guess maybe I'd gotten used to the way the Greek Interlinear for so long that when I open up the Latin interlinear I was shocked that it didn't look the same.

Greek Interlinear has more choices than Latin Interlinear (especially English Literal Translation)

Liam & Abi Maguire:
Also, whilst I was never trying to conform my translation to the Greek interlinear I did use it to check i was in the correct ballpark if you know what I mean? Maybe, I was too dependant on the rearranged translation? 

Douay-Rheims Bible (DRA) can also be used in Multi-View || with Latin Interlinear:

A Lexicon of Saint Thomas Aquinas has Latin headwords.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 3152
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 16 2019 11:51 AM

Liam & Abi Maguire:

Thanks, SineNomine. This gave me pause for thought. 

I guess maybe I'd gotten used to the way the Greek Interlinear for so long that when I open up the Latin interlinear I was shocked that it didn't look the same. Also, whilst I was never trying to conform my translation to the Greek interlinear I did use it to check i was in the correct ballpark if you know what I mean? Maybe, I was too dependant on the rearranged translation? 

Perhaps. For me, the Latin interlinear cuts down on how often I have to check a dictionary when there's a gap in my knowledge/memory.

As to pronunciation: Duolingo (not unreasonably) uses one of the semi-hypothetical reconstructed pronunciations of classical Latin. The people who actually use oral Latin these days--cantors/choristers, Catholic (and Anglican) clergy, certain Vatican employees, etc.--use ecclesiastical Latin.

Posts 461
Liam & Abi Maguire | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 25 2019 4:59 AM

Thanks for the tips/insights, SineNomine. And thanks to everyone else too. 

Now that I've settled in and gotten used to the tools at my disposal, I can see that I might have overreacted a little bit. Embarrassed

I've picked up a few more lexicons (inc. the Analytical Lexicon of the Vulgate) and seem to be making good progress.

One thing I troubling me though, does anyone know if there is a way to hover over passage refs in a Lexicon and make it show a specific translation in the pop-up?

For example, when I mouse over a Bible reference in the Analytical Lexicon of the Vulgate the pop up shows the verse in the NIV. Is there a way to make it show the Vulgate instead? Preferably without having it affect which translation is shown in other resources (books, commentaries, etc.)?

Thanks in advance. Liam

Check out my blog 'For Fathers'

Posts 204
Roy | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 25 2019 9:07 AM

It may not be "How" you want to do it, but you can place your chosen Latin bible at the top of your "Preferred" list.

Posts 5165
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 25 2019 12:09 PM

Advanced Prioritization any help with this ?

Liam & Abi Maguire:

Thanks for the tips/insights, SineNomine. And thanks to everyone else too. 

Now that I've settled in and gotten used to the tools at my disposal, I can see that I might have overreacted a little bit. Embarrassed

I've picked up a few more lexicons (inc. the Analytical Lexicon of the Vulgate) and seem to be making good progress.

One thing I troubling me though, does anyone know if there is a way to hover over passage refs in a Lexicon and make it show a specific translation in the pop-up?

For example, when I mouse over a Bible reference in the Analytical Lexicon of the Vulgate the pop up shows the verse in the NIV. Is there a way to make it show the Vulgate instead? Preferably without having it affect which translation is shown in other resources (books, commentaries, etc.)?

Thanks in advance. Liam

Posts 10324
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 25 2019 1:19 PM

For any looking at the nuances of the latin in Logos, I thought some comments might be useful (see below screen photo (offline):

1. The Information panel is quite useful, especially the way Logos arranged the two latin interlinears. In the example in Mat 5:4, I clicked on the latin/english interlinear for possess. The info panel then displays in-depth for latin usage, including the Fathers, greek usage, and semantic grouping. However, clicking on the Clementine interlinear displays a different grouping of information, however preferred.

2. SESB offers the only latin apparatus per se. However the personal book NT Variants has a good summary of the old latin, plus those showing up in the Fathers.

3. The Bezae latin mss has the old latin parallels prior to Jerome (which tend to harmonize). Here, inherit in contrast to possess.

4. And it's sometime useful to see how the older other translations handled a passage (eg syriac, coptic, etc).

5. Remember the latin morphing is displayed in the Latin/english interlinear (a specific line), but only as a popover in the Clementine interlinear (the interlinear morph line is the greek/hebrew).


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