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Posts 158
Fred | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 22 2010 5:26 AM

PeterLi:

I have not received my DVD's yet, hopefully today.  But reading about all these very basic errors and poor quality editing is just very disturbing and disheartening.  

I have not received mine yet either (maybe today...).  However, I myself would use the term "disappointing", rather than "disturbing" or "disheartening".  (Of course, I am not saying, Peter, that ~you~ cannot use those words, but just that ~I~ feel somewhat differently.)  I think that Logos will address these issues and will come up with some sort of a solution.  I suspect that glaring errors may result in a few revised videos being made available by download, and that eventually there will be entire V.1.1 DVD's mailed out - I really do not expect Logos to "leave us hanging".  (I suspect that there are some meetings going on at Logos about these issues already...)  Part of my faith in all of the above is based upon past experience with Logos, and part of it is based upon my belief that these DVD's are likely a very high profile item in the Logos marketing strategy.

Fred

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 22 2010 6:49 AM

Just thinking ...

It should be possible to release some kind of "delta" or patch files and a program to process them, if the number of fixes needed are few. It would write the updated video file back to your PC/Mac. Such a tool could be built into Logos4, and could be a good option going foward, to make minor fixes.

Of course, if a disk is really messed up, then a refund or replacement seems in order.

I can't think why it would be too hard to run a "delta" of changes against a video/audio stream, if there was the will to release such a tool.

Posts 3187
LogosEmployee
Thomas Ball | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 22 2010 12:14 PM

Jonathan:

The problem with the "stumbles" or "hitches" are due to the size of file streaming from the disc. It is reliant much on one's read speed. That having been said there are two ways we can mitigate this.

1. Copy the files to your computer.

2. Use VLC. I've noticed that VLC (a free audio/video player) plays the files much better, and reacts better when the scrubber is used. I have tried it on Windows and the Mac and across the board had a better experience than in Quicktime. You can get it here http://www.videolan.org/vlc/.

 

Posts 620
Jonathan | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 22 2010 12:54 PM

Tommy Ball:

Jonathan:

The problem with the "stumbles" or "hitches" are due to the size of file streaming from the disc. It is reliant much on one's read speed. That having been said there are two ways we can mitigate this.

1. Copy the files to your computer.

2. Use VLC. I've noticed that VLC (a free audio/video player) plays the files much better, and reacts better when the scrubber is used. I have tried it on Windows and the Mac and across the board had a better experience than in Quicktime. You can get it here http://www.videolan.org/vlc/.

I am pretty convinced that this is not a streaming or software issue. I will try this on my other pc, but I really don't think it will make a difference. I've copied and even once recopied the files to hard drive and nothing changes.

In the dative video at 23:44 I always get mismatched audio and video. I have tried playing the files in the program you suggested and I am not seeing any change.

The other pausing I have encountered is mostly where there was obvious editing. What I mean by a "cut out" or "pause" is when you can noticeable tell that certain words or phrases were not part of the original audio. There is an abnormal insertion of phrases and words which was obviously added later. I cannot find an example at the moment, but you can hear the background noise fade out and back in, then two-three words are inserted, and then the background noise fades out and in again. I remember these issues happening most often in the nominative and dative videos. However, I have noticed it happening in just about every video I've watched so far (I've watched to the Greek Pronoun Video).

 

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Posts 1142
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 22 2010 1:15 PM

Since it is the "first" time Logos has produced training dvd's of this sort, there can be glitches; that I understand.  But I would also expect the finished product (or replacements) to live up to the description of the dvd's as advertised:

  • Videos come on 2 DVD-ROMs. The DVDs are designed for your computer and will not play in a normal DVD player. The videos are formatted in h.264 (HD) and optimized for Quicktime 7 and Windows Media Player 12.
  • A web-like user interface is included.
  • Leave the content on the DVD, or copy it to your hard drive.
  • Hopefully, this will get sorted out so that customers are satisfied.

    Posts 620
    Jonathan | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 22 2010 2:03 PM

    Jonathan:

    I cannot find an example at the moment, but you can hear the background noise fade out and back in, then two-three words are inserted, and then the background noise fades out and in again.

    I just found an example of what I am talking about... It not as obvious as some of the others I have noticed, but if watch the video on headphones it is hard to miss.

    In the Conjunctions video there are two of these problems between 7:00-7:30.

    1.) At 7:04 he says "which is what the conjunction 'and' here is really supporting," then a change in audio quality and the addition of "in the ESV," then there is a complete cut in the audio followed by the next sentence.

    2.) At 7:20 "and then because of his lengthy description of love," then an audio break and the addition of a quickly "abutting" statement, "may have felt the need to still encourage them to desire spiritual gifts." With this error it seems that the addition was not given adequate pause. It sounds like someone moved the audio a half -second forward.

    Again, these examples are not as obvious as some of the others. You will probably only notice these if you are listening on a high quality audio system or through a pair of headphones. And the error's above are what I would call "only mildly annoying" when compared to the more obvious ones. But this is the best example I can come up with at the moment.

    The frustrating part for me with the audio is why insert two-three words in the middle of a sentence? If that phrase is so important and you cannot get the audio correct, why not have the whole scene (or at least paragraph) redone? I'm no editor, but if the editing sounds shoddy, why edit? Seems to defeat the purpose.

     

     

    Syntax Searching Group | Michigan Logos Users | L5 FAQ | OSX 10.10 | 2.4 GHz i5 | 8 GB Ram

    Posts 350
    Chuck P. | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 22 2010 3:13 PM

    "Hopefully, this will get sorted out so that customers are satisfied."

    In my opinion, since blank DVD's are not expensive and Logos did not include an option to copy the DVD's to the customer's hard drive and everyone created their own filenames and hard disk locations, the only solution would be to develop new corrected masters and remake all customers DVD's and resend them, at Logos' expense.

    Chuck

    Laptop: Lenovo P580 - 15.6" IdeaPad Laptop
     - 6GB Memory - 750GB Hard Drive - Windows 7
     Iphone5s            Logos 7, Bronze

    Posts 5573
    Forum MVP
    Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 22 2010 5:00 PM

    Jonathan:
    In the dative video at 23:44 I always get mismatched audio and video. I have tried playing the files in the program you suggested and I am not seeing any change.

    I can confirm a mismatch between audio and video here as well. There also seems to be a change in quality of audio, but that's a very minor issue (IMHO).

    I get the mismatch with Windows Media Player and with the QuickTime player.

    Note that I have the video files copied to my hard drive.

     Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

    Posts 4768
    RIP
    Fred Chapman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 22 2010 5:11 PM

    I received my set yesterday and started watching the Hebrew videos. I have copied them to my hard drive and noticed no problems with what I have watched so far. It seems most of  the issues cited in this thread relate to the Greek videos. Johnnie Cisneros has already posted a statement that one of the videos is being fixed and will be available for download. Based on my prior experience with Logos I am confident that they will work through any issues that exist and do everything possible to satisfy their customers. As has already been stated a couple of times, this resource (and I suspect future resources of similar kind) will be a significant part of future marketing campaign.

    I encourage everyone to identify and post any errors or problems you find so that Logos is aware of them and can resolve them. I also enocurage everyone to maintain a positive outlook regarding Logos and this product. Based on what I've watched so far, the benefits of this series is tremendous and outweighs any issues that may exist.Smile

    Posts 3
    Paul Martin | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 22 2010 8:04 PM

    Please let me know when the updates become available and where to access them!

    Posts 19216
    Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 22 2010 8:10 PM

    Paul Martin:

    Please let me know when the updates become available and where to access them!

    The best way to be sure you are notified is to subscribe to this and the other forum threads where errors have been mentioned (particularly this one where Johnny promises to let us know when an update is available for download: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/18205/140603.aspx#140603) by scrolling to the top of the thread and clicking on "Email me when someone replies."

    Posts 1142
    Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2010 4:19 AM

    Chuck P.:

    "Hopefully, this will get sorted out so that customers are satisfied."

    In my opinion, since blank DVD's are not expensive and Logos did not include an option to copy the DVD's to the customer's hard drive and everyone created their own filenames and hard disk locations, the only solution would be to develop new corrected masters and remake all customers DVD's and resend them, at Logos' expense.

    I agree.  This is what I paid for-2 dvd's that do not have errors.  Yes, and I believe the responsiblity clearly lies with Logos not with the customer to fix this.

    Posts 298
    Kaye Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2010 4:38 AM

    You know, I've been a short term customer with Logos, having come in as a user right before Logos 4 was released but I've noticed two things about the company:

    1) They tend to rush products to the user group before they are production quality, maybe partly because of pressure from us.

    2)  They listen to their user group and fully stand behind what they sell, making every effort to deliver, farther down the road from initial release, a wonderful product.  The chance to give our input toward the final version has made Logos 4 excellent in ways it would never have been if we were not part of this process.

    I'm not saying everyone should do business this way but I think to be a Logos customer and enjoy the final product we must accept that this is their current model.  I can tell already that my ability to use Logos 4 and to study deeper, as a layperson, will be drastically better with this product.  I'll be even more excited when issues are fixed and I can use it to the fullest extent.

    Peace and a wonderful day!

    Kaye  :-)

    "But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry."  2 Timothy 4:5 (NASB)

    Posts 222
    Bob Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2010 9:08 AM

    Johnny Cisneros:
    we're going to resolve those issues in the Alphabet Video.  I'll let you know when it is available for download.

    With all the audio, technical and even Greek errors for "Learning to use Greek"... I purchased these videos to come on a DVD, not download.  So speaking for myself, I would prefer finalized DVDs with the issues resolved.   That makes the most sense, as that is what everyone has paid for.

    River of Life Church: http://LifeOverflowing.org

    Visit my blog: http://LifeOverflowing.org/pastor

     

    Posts 1145
    William | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2010 9:21 AM

    Pastor Bob Turner:
    I purchased these videos to come on a DVD, not download

    This was the only way to get them.

     

    Posts 20
    LogosEmployee
    Mike Heiser | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2010 12:16 PM

    actually, there are new alphabet videos to download.  I'll post something here when I get the final URL for that. They were actually made before the product shipped (Johnny and I caught the errors - something to do with rendering).

    Posts 20
    LogosEmployee
    Mike Heiser | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2010 12:26 PM

    The hesitation issue may be answered here:

    http://www.logos.com/learn/faq

    Also, for the "audio sync" problem, you can follow these directions:

    Customer can go into the folder "Learn_to_Use_Greek (or Learn_to_Use_Hebrew) and copy the folder "Videos" to their local hard drive (about 6GB for Hebrew, 8 GB for Greek).

    Then they can open the videos from that folder directly with QuickTime 7.6.6 (best experience), VLC, or Windows Media Player 12 (Windows 7 only)

    In case the page has not been updated yet, here is updated text of technical issue problems/answers that I have:

    Technical F.A.Q.s for Learn to Use Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software

    1. What are the best practices for watching these videos on a PC?

    - Make sure your browser is up to date.  Internet Explorer 8 (Safari for Mac)is the best choice when playing the videos off of the discs. Or just navigate to the "Videos" folder Learn_to_Use_Greek (or Learn_to_Use_Hebrew) -> Videos and copy it to your Hard Drive. Then open the individual videos with QuickTime 7.6.6 (recommended), Windows Media Player 12, or VLC

    - Download the latest version of QuickTime (7.6.6 or later) it is important that you are fully up to date as earlier versions may not display the chapter menu, or controls in 64bit Windows systems. 

    - Click on the videos in the column "Quicktime w/Chapters" these videos play at 960x540 and should work well on most systems.

    2. When I click on videos in the column "Default Player" the video is larger, but I don't see any controls for the video?

    - Try pressing the F11 key to view the page in Full screen. 

    - If your monitor is too small for the video at this resolution (1280x720), try the column "QuickTime w/Chapters"

    3. I am using Windows Vista or Windows XP, and I can't download Windows Media Player 12. And Windows Media Player 11 won't work for these videos.

    - Currently Windows Media Player 12 is only available for Windows 7. 

    4. Can I use VLC or REAL Player to view these videos if I do not want to download Quicktime?

    - Yes.

    5. Can I copy the contents of the disc to my hard drive or thumb drive for personal use?

    - Yes, just copy the "Videos" folder Learn_to_Use_Greek (or Learn_to_Use_Hebrew) -> Videos and copy it to your Hard Drive. Then open the individual videos with QuickTime 7.6.6 (recommended), Windows Media Player 12, or VLC

    6. When playing the disc I am seeing some "jerkiness" in the videos.

    - Just copy the "Videos" folder Learn_to_Use_Greek (or Learn_to_Use_Hebrew) -> Videos and copy it to your Hard Drive. Then open the individual videos with QuickTime 7.6.6 (recommended), Windows Media Player 12, or VLC

    7. Will these videos play on a normal DVD player? Why not?

    - No. This video series has nearly 19 hours of HD content. Regular DVDs only offer a fraction of the resolution used for these videos. Additionally, the series would have to span nearly 10 discs. The result would have been lower quality for a higher price. 

    8. When playing off the disc, I notice that when I drag the little slider (playhead) to a point later in the movie that it stutters and takes time to "catch up," why is that?

    - The disc drive is not as fast as if the files were copied to your internal hard drive. Consequently it cannot keep up when one "scrubs" back and forth.

    The best bet is to just copy the "Videos" folder Learn_to_Use_Greek (or Learn_to_Use_Hebrew) -> Videos and copy it to your Hard Drive. Then open the individual videos with QuickTime 7.6.6 (recommended), Windows Media Player 12, or VLC

    9. Can I copy the contents of the disc to a thumb drive for my personal use?

    - Yes.

    10. Can I play these videos for a class?

    - These videos are licensed for your personal use, they can be used in a class if the students own their own copies as well.

    Posts 439
    Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2010 1:39 PM

    Mike I have yet to receive my copy (I'm in Australia) but I must admit I am becoming very worried about the quality of these DVDs. The marketing told me that they were HD and as such I expect that the quality will be top shelf! Now I hear that there are audio issues, issues with teh DVDs themselves, they come without packaging and the editing of the videos is below par. Please assure me that this is nit the case? Please assure me that I haven't outlayed a sizable amount of money for something that doesn't live up to the marketing? I am really worried!

    Posts 19216
    Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2010 2:13 PM

    Michael Heiser:

    The hesitation issue may be answered here:

    http://www.logos.com/learn/faq

    In case the page has not been updated yet, here is updated text of technical issue problems/answers that I have:

    Technical F.A.Q.s for Learn to Use Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software

    ....

    10. Can I play these videos for a class?

    - These videos are licensed for your personal use, they can be used in a class if the students own their own copies as well.

    Mike, the FAQ as you posted them are different from the ones on the website. (It appears yours is the more up-to-date and hasn't been updated on the website yet.) Among other differences, the page on the website does not include the question "Can I play these videos for a class" nor is there any indication on the website that you can't unless students own their own copies. In fact, on the info page about the videos (http://www.logos.com/learn), there appears to be explicit unqualified encouragement to professors to use them in their classes (my bold/red):

    Professors

    • Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software is perfect for teaching preparation in your courses that focus on Greek and Hebrew tools for English readers. Use the videos to prepare your lessons. Learn new teaching methods, and glean ideas for your own teaching and lecturing on the original languages. Professors teaching traditional first year Greek and Hebrew courses can use the videos for showing students how to use their language training for exegesis.
    • Integrate technology into the classroom. Supplement your teaching and lectures with high definition video. Help your students use Logos Bible Software for studying the Bible with the original languages.

    Has something changed internally with the decision about how these are to be licensed? I haven't received mine yet so I don't know if there is any license agreement included with them that one must agree to before breaking the seal.

    It seems to me it would be quite shortsighted of Logos not to allow people to play videos demonstrating Logos in action to other people who don't own Logos yet. What an incredible missed marketing opportunity that would be!

    Posts 1539
    Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2010 3:16 PM

    Rosie Perera:
    I haven't received mine yet so I don't know if there is any license agreement included with them that one must agree to before breaking the seal.

    Seal? Mine came in a CD shipping envelope, where the flap folded over into the grooves. No seal, no tape, no nothing. Just two Dvds in sleeves and some marketing material for other Logos products.

     

     

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