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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 23 2020 1:57 PM

Graham Owen:
Logos should include Catholic resources with Reformed,

They do. Pretty much everything before 1400 is Jewish, Muslim, Eastern or Oriental Orthodox, or Catholic with a handful being Anglo-Catholic. Note that includes the Bible which other groups carried over just as the early Christian carried over Jewish scripture. More to the actual point you are trying to make, you need to consider the degrees of separation - in which case FL does cross-pollinate its base packages. 

I think the question that ought to be asked is more in this context:

  • Having a base package of a particular flavor requires a sufficient market
  • In addition, there must be sufficient materials available to generate marketable upgrades when new versions are released.
  • The resource sales must support both the base packages and their updates; this may require a level of sales from users of different traditions.
  • QUESTION: Is there a sufficient market to support two traditions separately.

The answer is: I personally haven't a clue as I am not a part of that market however defined.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 238
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 24 2020 3:57 AM

MJ. Smith:
Having a base package of a particular flavor requires a sufficient market

This is probably at the root of the problem, in my experience my Pentecostal colleagues are not as interested in tools like Logos and tend to stick with the denominational publisher.

MJ. Smith:
In addition, there must be sufficient materials available to generate marketable upgrades when new versions are released.

Point above creates an issue as I think most of the denominational publishers have not engaged with Logos at least in part because they still get good revenue from members buying books from them.

MJ. Smith:
The resource sales must support both the base packages and their updates; this may require a level of sales from users of different traditions.

I understand the commercial considerations I think the challenge for Logos is understanding whether they would make more revenue from 2 smaller packages than they do from the single combined one.

MJ. Smith:
QUESTION: Is there a sufficient market to support two traditions separately.

I doubt that they have enough data to make an informed decision.

I agree that there is the inevitable overlap in materials based on the many forks in the road that have got us to where we are today, for most of us that is just a case of understanding the journey that brought our faith tradition here. Looking back is interesting especially when you hear someone dismiss some Church Fathers as "Catholic" while adopting others because they are "Protestant" when this is clearly an invalid approach. Personally I see the need to include different materials because of the historical development of a denomination as being very different to the contemporary authors that are included where they are speaking from a theological perspective that is now formed.

An obvious example would be John Wesley whose influence on early Pentecostalism is clear through the Holiness Movement and his Church Organisation approach. Where this would be add odds with many Charismatics for most traditional Pentecostals the theology of Wesley is definitely a stop on the journey. His works may predate the emergence of Pentecostalism but there is a clear link on the family tree for most Pentecostals.

As someone who has owned Logos since the early days I am used to identifying the resources that are useful to me without relying on the denominational tag. I do feel though that Logos seems to lack awareness of just how different Pentecostals and Charismatics can be in both origins and theological views and why they really don't belong together (IMHO).

Posts 52
Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 24 2020 3:21 PM

8s

Graham Owen:
seems to lack awareness of just how different Pentecostals and Charismatics can be in both origins and theological views

You're focusing on differences and not similarities. That is how we got denominationalism. We don't need any more of that. IMHO, P&C really do belong together.

The future is unity. Young P&Cs are already saying as much. And the movement is growing. Let's not do them a disservice.

Graham Owen:
someone dismiss some Church Fathers as "Catholic" while adopting others because they are "Protestant" when this is clearly an invalid approach.

Exactly. Same concept as P&Cs partnering and having something to learn from one another.

I just think it's not the future to sink to the repugnant level of denominationalism just for a more isolated base package. The next generatiion will look back on us with disgust same ol' denominationalism like everyone else or with admiration at our vision.

Again, I'm talking about asking what the Holy Spirit would have and not what your pocketbook, denomination, or origin would have.

Have a great day everyone!

Posts 7
Angela Meister | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 24 2020 6:22 PM

We are not to compromise truth for the sake of unity. The antichrist spirits have that same strategy. I agree that unity is important, but it is unity around truth and perfect unity will be in eternity. There are some fringes of this movement that have so departed from scripture, I don't even know if people in these circles don't have the Holy Spirit or just have more than one spirit at work-- in which case REPENTANCE is in order, not compromise. It is disconcerting and people are being harmed. There is a total lack of discernment in many right now. God knows. Our loyalty is always to the Lord above men first. We need to be in prayer now more than ever. God bless and keep all.

I would love to see Logos do a "build your own" type package.

We have a new "version" of the bible out that is utter garbage and it's being embraced. The story behind it is disconcerting as is the "translation" itself. If you don't know what I am talking about, please do some research as there are more than a few things that are concerning. 

There will be MANY that the Lord says to depart who think they are doing the works of God. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 24 2020 7:20 PM

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Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 238
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 25 2020 6:37 AM

Scott:
You're focusing on differences and not similarities.

Agreed but the whole system of collections is premised on differences if it was not then Logos would not have introduced them. This was a commercial decision that has commercial implications for the buyer.

Scott:
Again, I'm talking about asking what the Holy Spirit would have and not what your pocketbook, denomination, or origin would have.

This is clearly a deliberately loaded question. In my view the Holy Spirit would definitely want us to invest in materials that properly reflect the Gospel and broader message of the Bible as we understand it and to be good stewards of our finances in the investments that we make whether these purchases come from within our denomination or not. The inevitable by product of the positive view is the negative view that we should avoid wasting finances on materials that promote views that we see as full of errors with the obvious exception of those resources required to better understand the errors and guide others away from them.

Posts 52
Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 25 2020 3:09 PM

Based on the Forum Guidelines, I am not sure we can get into the subject of specific errors in the P&C movement. Except, I think it's safe for me to finger greedy, self-help televanglists, but I don't see much of that in Logos. As when dealing with any distinctive Christian group, eat the meat, spit out the bones.

P&C's in all their variety, are really the same Body-wide movement. Look what God is doing, bird's- eye view and into the future. Let's not taint the outpouring movement with division.

I really don't want to belabor every point. I think I've stated my vision of the next generation well enough. I disagree with breaking up P&C. Now I'll hold my peace.

Posts 5299
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 26 2020 4:08 AM

The primary question that needs to be asked is whether there is genuinely enough content currently in Logos to offer separate collections filled with relevant resources for each group ? If not then this is a mere a moot philosophical discussion, if the answer is yes then it's a question that can lead to an genuine outcome.

And if the answer is not then someone from each group needs to take up the baton and champion resources relevant to that group being added to Logos so it can move from a philosophical question to a practical outcome.

Kendall Sholtess:

Pentecostal and Charismatic Base packages should be separated and distinguished from each other.

A Pentecostal Base Package should have something similar to the Wesleyan Base Package with additional works by strictly Pentecostal publishers. Other works that could be added are some from the Baptist stream. It is not appropriate to add works which stem from the independent Charismatic movement, such as C. Peter Wagner, Dutch Sheets, Cindy Jacobs, et al. Theologically and practically they are very different from Pentecostals.

A Charismatic Base package should include Baptist, Presbyterian, some Pentecostal works, Independent Charismatic works (Dutch Sheets et al). It should be much more varied denominationally than the Pentecostal Package is. Charismatic refers to non-Pentecostals from various denominations or independent movements who do not belong in the Pentecostal category. C Peter Wagner, Dutch Sheets, Cindy Jacobs, and many of the earlier such as J Rodman Williams.

In general, in my opinion, traditional Pentecostals would object to too much Independent Charismatic material in their base package. I believe that Faithlife needs to do more research on this. If their researcher is Charismatic, they may not fully understand the difference. The reason is not that Charismatics are ignorant, God forbid, that's not what I am saying. But Charismatics are far more open and accepting of novel ideas (e.g. Open Theism [C Peter Wagner, Harold Eberle], Calvinism [Sam Storms, Wayne Grudem]) than traditional Pentecostals.

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