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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 23 2020 1:57 PM

Graham Owen:
Logos should include Catholic resources with Reformed,

They do. Pretty much everything before 1400 is Jewish, Muslim, Eastern or Oriental Orthodox, or Catholic with a handful being Anglo-Catholic. Note that includes the Bible which other groups carried over just as the early Christian carried over Jewish scripture. More to the actual point you are trying to make, you need to consider the degrees of separation - in which case FL does cross-pollinate its base packages. 

I think the question that ought to be asked is more in this context:

  • Having a base package of a particular flavor requires a sufficient market
  • In addition, there must be sufficient materials available to generate marketable upgrades when new versions are released.
  • The resource sales must support both the base packages and their updates; this may require a level of sales from users of different traditions.
  • QUESTION: Is there a sufficient market to support two traditions separately.

The answer is: I personally haven't a clue as I am not a part of that market however defined.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 24 2020 3:57 AM

MJ. Smith:
Having a base package of a particular flavor requires a sufficient market

This is probably at the root of the problem, in my experience my Pentecostal colleagues are not as interested in tools like Logos and tend to stick with the denominational publisher.

MJ. Smith:
In addition, there must be sufficient materials available to generate marketable upgrades when new versions are released.

Point above creates an issue as I think most of the denominational publishers have not engaged with Logos at least in part because they still get good revenue from members buying books from them.

MJ. Smith:
The resource sales must support both the base packages and their updates; this may require a level of sales from users of different traditions.

I understand the commercial considerations I think the challenge for Logos is understanding whether they would make more revenue from 2 smaller packages than they do from the single combined one.

MJ. Smith:
QUESTION: Is there a sufficient market to support two traditions separately.

I doubt that they have enough data to make an informed decision.

I agree that there is the inevitable overlap in materials based on the many forks in the road that have got us to where we are today, for most of us that is just a case of understanding the journey that brought our faith tradition here. Looking back is interesting especially when you hear someone dismiss some Church Fathers as "Catholic" while adopting others because they are "Protestant" when this is clearly an invalid approach. Personally I see the need to include different materials because of the historical development of a denomination as being very different to the contemporary authors that are included where they are speaking from a theological perspective that is now formed.

An obvious example would be John Wesley whose influence on early Pentecostalism is clear through the Holiness Movement and his Church Organisation approach. Where this would be add odds with many Charismatics for most traditional Pentecostals the theology of Wesley is definitely a stop on the journey. His works may predate the emergence of Pentecostalism but there is a clear link on the family tree for most Pentecostals.

As someone who has owned Logos since the early days I am used to identifying the resources that are useful to me without relying on the denominational tag. I do feel though that Logos seems to lack awareness of just how different Pentecostals and Charismatics can be in both origins and theological views and why they really don't belong together (IMHO).

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Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 24 2020 3:21 PM

8s

Graham Owen:
seems to lack awareness of just how different Pentecostals and Charismatics can be in both origins and theological views

You're focusing on differences and not similarities. That is how we got denominationalism. We don't need any more of that. IMHO, P&C really do belong together.

The future is unity. Young P&Cs are already saying as much. And the movement is growing. Let's not do them a disservice.

Graham Owen:
someone dismiss some Church Fathers as "Catholic" while adopting others because they are "Protestant" when this is clearly an invalid approach.

Exactly. Same concept as P&Cs partnering and having something to learn from one another.

I just think it's not the future to sink to the repugnant level of denominationalism just for a more isolated base package. The next generatiion will look back on us with disgust same ol' denominationalism like everyone else or with admiration at our vision.

Again, I'm talking about asking what the Holy Spirit would have and not what your pocketbook, denomination, or origin would have.

Have a great day everyone!

Posts 52
Angela Meister | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 24 2020 6:22 PM

We are not to compromise truth for the sake of unity. The antichrist spirits have that same strategy. I agree that unity is important, but it is unity around truth and perfect unity will be in eternity. There are some fringes of this movement that have so departed from scripture, I don't even know if people in these circles don't have the Holy Spirit or just have more than one spirit at work-- in which case REPENTANCE is in order, not compromise. It is disconcerting and people are being harmed. There is a total lack of discernment in many right now. God knows. Our loyalty is always to the Lord above men first. We need to be in prayer now more than ever. God bless and keep all.

I would love to see Logos do a "build your own" type package.

We have a new "version" of the bible out that is utter garbage and it's being embraced. The story behind it is disconcerting as is the "translation" itself. If you don't know what I am talking about, please do some research as there are more than a few things that are concerning. 

There will be MANY that the Lord says to depart who think they are doing the works of God. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 24 2020 7:20 PM

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Posts 253
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 25 2020 6:37 AM

Scott:
You're focusing on differences and not similarities.

Agreed but the whole system of collections is premised on differences if it was not then Logos would not have introduced them. This was a commercial decision that has commercial implications for the buyer.

Scott:
Again, I'm talking about asking what the Holy Spirit would have and not what your pocketbook, denomination, or origin would have.

This is clearly a deliberately loaded question. In my view the Holy Spirit would definitely want us to invest in materials that properly reflect the Gospel and broader message of the Bible as we understand it and to be good stewards of our finances in the investments that we make whether these purchases come from within our denomination or not. The inevitable by product of the positive view is the negative view that we should avoid wasting finances on materials that promote views that we see as full of errors with the obvious exception of those resources required to better understand the errors and guide others away from them.

Posts 61
Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 25 2020 3:09 PM

Based on the Forum Guidelines, I am not sure we can get into the subject of specific errors in the P&C movement. Except, I think it's safe for me to finger greedy, self-help televanglists, but I don't see much of that in Logos. As when dealing with any distinctive Christian group, eat the meat, spit out the bones.

P&C's in all their variety, are really the same Body-wide movement. Look what God is doing, bird's- eye view and into the future. Let's not taint the outpouring movement with division.

I really don't want to belabor every point. I think I've stated my vision of the next generation well enough. I disagree with breaking up P&C. Now I'll hold my peace.

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 26 2020 4:08 AM

The primary question that needs to be asked is whether there is genuinely enough content currently in Logos to offer separate collections filled with relevant resources for each group ? If not then this is a mere a moot philosophical discussion, if the answer is yes then it's a question that can lead to an genuine outcome.

And if the answer is not then someone from each group needs to take up the baton and champion resources relevant to that group being added to Logos so it can move from a philosophical question to a practical outcome.

Kendall Sholtess:

Pentecostal and Charismatic Base packages should be separated and distinguished from each other.

A Pentecostal Base Package should have something similar to the Wesleyan Base Package with additional works by strictly Pentecostal publishers. Other works that could be added are some from the Baptist stream. It is not appropriate to add works which stem from the independent Charismatic movement, such as C. Peter Wagner, Dutch Sheets, Cindy Jacobs, et al. Theologically and practically they are very different from Pentecostals.

A Charismatic Base package should include Baptist, Presbyterian, some Pentecostal works, Independent Charismatic works (Dutch Sheets et al). It should be much more varied denominationally than the Pentecostal Package is. Charismatic refers to non-Pentecostals from various denominations or independent movements who do not belong in the Pentecostal category. C Peter Wagner, Dutch Sheets, Cindy Jacobs, and many of the earlier such as J Rodman Williams.

In general, in my opinion, traditional Pentecostals would object to too much Independent Charismatic material in their base package. I believe that Faithlife needs to do more research on this. If their researcher is Charismatic, they may not fully understand the difference. The reason is not that Charismatics are ignorant, God forbid, that's not what I am saying. But Charismatics are far more open and accepting of novel ideas (e.g. Open Theism [C Peter Wagner, Harold Eberle], Calvinism [Sam Storms, Wayne Grudem]) than traditional Pentecostals.

Posts 203
Kendall Sholtess | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 22 2020 1:54 AM

Thanks, Graham. I am in agreement with you on this. I would say further that denominations are not the source of disunity. Unity doesn't mean having the same opinion about things. No matter what church you go to, they are going to have a distinctive theology. 

Posts 253
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 22 2020 3:29 AM

Kendall Sholtess:
Unity doesn't mean having the same opinion about things.

My favourite book on this subject is by Joel Edwards...

Unfortunately unity is too often confused with uniformity.

Posts 203
Kendall Sholtess | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 24 2020 3:03 AM

That looks like a good book, Graham. Sadly, it doesn't look like it's sold.

I myself am not a dogmatist. I simply cannot be too dogmatic. I've tried, oh how I have tried! Just searching for somewhere to rest my weary head. But now I have 4,800 electronic books of many denominations and they don't lend well to head resting.

I suppose my repose will need to be in heaven, where I may not need to search for answers so wearyingly. (I doubt Oxford will add my word to their dictionary. Native speakers can guess the meaning).

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Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 24 2020 7:59 AM

Kendall Sholtess:
That looks like a good book, Graham. Sadly, it doesn't look like it's sold.

It's been out of print for a while, it does turn up from time to time when bookshops do a stock check. I managed to replace the copy that I loaned to someone who later claimed it was theirs and was not sure how my name got written inside in my handwriting!

Kendall Sholtess:
I have 4,800 electronic books of many denominations

My library also covers many denominations, I even have and read John MacArthur who would definitely be off limits for many of my pentecostal colleagues. For me the combining of Pentecostal and Charismatic into a single collections does two things:

  1. it masks the limited availability of classical pentecostal works in Logos something that I don't think is Logos' fault but ironically is unlikely to change while the two are included in a single collection as this grouping will influence the way that pentecostal publishers perceive Logos
  2. it shows a lack of understanding of some very clear differences in beliefs, practices and origins, it is true that the pentecostal attraction to celebrity has led many to embrace some of the Charismatic teachers and it is definitely ironic that in a period when we encourage our own to publish more substantive academic and theologically grounded books many are indeed drawn to the less substantial Charismatic authors

From a personal perspective, I'm happy that Logos now has enough good quality Pentecostal resources to enable me not to buy real books, I do wish there was more, Stephen Jack Land for example, but on a day to day basis thinks are so much better than say 10 years ago.

Agree on the dogmatism btw, for me dogmatists insist on sitting on opposite sides of the table and in my experience the best conversations occur when we sit on the same side of the table, no matter how hard that might seem at the beginning.

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Kendall Sholtess | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 25 2020 7:32 AM

You're right Graham. I have strong opinions about doctrine. But a dogmatist would refuse to hear other sides. That's what I meant and I think that's what you mean as well.

  I just wish that a package could be assembled which would be convenient for pastors and other ministers in Pentecostal denominations, in which they wouldn't have to spend $20,000 to build a decent library.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 25 2020 9:19 AM

Kendall Sholtess:
Hopefully Faithlife will be aware of these major differences and consider doing something about them.

My assumption is that they are aware. They often employ people from a variety of traditions (Reformed, Catholic, Orthodox, etc) and those people are often integral to base package creation.  As MJ notes above, a lot of the mixing of resources has to do with market and upgradeability of packages. I had a couple ideas and thoughts in my head as I read the thread:

1. Perhaps within P&C packages, they could create subcategories like they already do when they will distinguish "NT Studies" vs "OT Studies" or "19th Century Theology" from "20th Century Theology.  Accordingly they might distinguish "Pentecostal" from "Charismatic" or "1st Wave" from "3rd Wave."  My guess is, however, that in some cases there would be resources that are gray areas.  But this would be one way to delineate the two.  Delineating the two would also have a built in accountability to assess how much balance of the movements Logos is bringing to the BP: are they only offering 3 Pentecostal works while offering 23 Charismatic ones? (por ejemplo)  As a non P or C person, I would be helped by that delineation.

2. Be careful about assumptions that other base packages really reflect denominational unity.  I'd imagine Lutherans from the Wisconsin Synod would take exception to Lutheran works from the ELCA. On the one hand, they have a common tradition/roots, on the other hand, a wide-divergance. Even Catholic packages likely don't reflect the wide divergance of thought as say, between the Benedictines and the Jesuits, etc.  When you're an outsider, it's all the same ("motor oil is motor oil" ...referencing an old commercial). but to insiders: WHOA BABY, WE'RE NOTHING ALIKE!!!"

3. I think it was Graham Owen who said many Pentecostals do not get into Logos and stick with their Pentecostal publishing arms. I assume that means they are hardcopies and not really digitalized (except perhaps some ebooks?). If true, I imagine that is partly due to the lack of offering of Pentecostal material within Logos (and is that related to difficulty in getting contracts with those publishers or more about perceived market). But I wonder if it is also partly due to their own preferred work and study methods: 1) are they open to electronic study on a mass scale 2) do their study habits differ from methods at which Logos shines? 

4. Interestingly, I come from the "Restoration" movement that Denise seems to reference above (if I understood your reference to be to what is also referred to by outsiders as "Campbellites"). Not nearly as large as P or C or other denominations, but at least at one time was the largest indigenously generated movement/denomination in the US.  We have no base package.  We likely are as close to the Baptists as any, but I own by far fewer Baptist base packages.  I own more Verbum, Anglican, and P&C than I do Baptist. (we also have roots with the Presbyterians and Methodists). I wish we had more resources directly from our roots (early documents, etc). I wish some of the commentaries that are distinctively ours were more affordably placed within base packages.  And, frankly, I don't care for some chunks of our published stuff and would not buy it if it WAS in Logos...unless part of the fluff that makes up packages.

5. As a non P or C person, and from a tradition that, generally speaking, is a more cognitively-based tradition that shuns the more "charismatic" faith and practice traditions (ie, cessationists), I love getting resources, no-matter their P or C origins, that explore the more active working of the HS that my tradition generally has either ignored or even abhorred. At this point, I'd likely not more open to purchasing a basepackage that offered a smattering of those traditions than I would be interested in getting into the minutiae. For instance, I own several Anglican BP's, but am not excited the more they offer things about the organization and polity. I prefer accessing works that reveal their theology, whether monographs, dictionaries or commentaries.

I am curios: how might a typical, non-Logos using pastor rank the following reasons for not owning Logos:

-original language and in depth study using language and concordance-style tools is a foreign enterprise

-not enough Pentecostal works to make it worthwhile

-an aversion to owning anything Charismatic

-not having a healthy book budget

I realize this will only be by anecdotal or gut perceptions.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 253
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 25 2020 9:49 AM

Kendall Sholtess:
You're right Graham. I have strong opinions about doctrine. But a dogmatist would refuse to hear other sides. That's what I meant and I think that's what you mean as well.

Exactly...

Kendall Sholtess:
I just wish that a package could be assembled which would be convenient for pastors and other ministers in Pentecostal denominations, in which they wouldn't have to spend $20,000 to build a decent library.

I think this can be done but you need to know about the origins and influences that shaped the movement as it emerged and those that have shaped it subsequently. That said I have spent a bit more than that on my library. 

Posts 253
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 25 2020 10:14 AM

Friedrich:
Be careful about assumptions that other base packages really reflect denominational unity. 

I am very aware that there is diversity within other denominations and that packages are really more of a commercial construct to bring enough resources together to drive down the unit price.

Friedrich:
I think it was Graham Owen who said many Pentecostals do not get into Logos and stick with their Pentecostal publishing arms

It was me and some years ago I remember that Logos were contacting the major publishing houses to negotiate access to content. Based on what is available in Logos today it is safe to assume that this was not a success. In my experience, many Pentecostals are conservative (small c) and like to stay with the safe option which would be in house.

Friedrich:
And, frankly, I don't care for some chunks of our published stuff and would not buy it if it WAS in Logos...unless part of the fluff that makes up packages.

That would be true for Pentecostal publications as well (for me at least).

Friedrich:
I am curios: how might a typical, non-Logos using pastor rank the following reasons for not owning Logos:

My guess would be  - not enough Pentecostal - budget - original language - aversion to Charismatic

Note that budget is an interesting one as whilst Logos talk a lot about this in my experience few ministers of any denomination make investing in study materials a priority. Many that I know depend on the materials they used in training and invest very little. Some probably spend more on praise and worship CDs than they do on books. 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 25 2020 7:05 PM

Graham Owen:
Note that budget is an interesting one as whilst Logos talk a lot about this in my experience few ministers of any denomination make investing in study materials a priority. Many that I know depend on the materials they used in training and invest very little. Some probably spend more on praise and worship CDs than they do on books. 

Yeah, in my neck of the woods there is that tension between scholarly and practical.  Not that they have to be antithetical in and of themselves. But often lived out that way. 

peace and thanks for adding to the interesting dialogue on this thread. (and to the OP)

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 203
Kendall Sholtess | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 25 2020 10:07 PM

I just want to say that the difference between Charismatics and Traditional (Classic) Pentecostals is often greater than between Wisconsin and Missouri synod Lutherans. So I am not sure that is a valid comparison.

A Charismatic can hold to the Westminster Confession or the Book of Concord, as well as the Roman Catholic Catechism.

Pentecostal is a distinctive theology, which was built upon the Reformation in some ways and came through Wesleyanism and the Holiness movements. Most traditional Pentecostals also have a strong dispensational influence.

It is unlikely that a Pentecostal could hold to the Westminster Confession, because Classic Pentecostalism is Arminian (Wesleyan style) in orientation.

So the base package would be more limited in scope than a Charismatic base package, which would theoretically have almost anything in it.

A Pentecostal base package should be similar to the Anglican and Wesleyan packages (Wesley's Works, Adam Clarke), with a commentary set like the NAC and an application commentary, classic devotional books, classic theology books, some dispensational theology books (Henry Thiessen etc.), some pivotal Reformation books (Martin Luther's Galatians commentary), and others. It might be good for Pentecostals to make a list.

I think a package could be made accessible, say at the Bronze level, which would be both affordable and a great attraction for Pentecostal laypersons and leaders worldwide. Many things could be added to higher levels, generalizing more as packages go up, but staying fairly close to classic works and what might be found from Pentecostal Publishers and certain Wesleyan works, and not forgetting Jonathan Edwards and such as well.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 25 2020 10:12 PM

Kendall Sholtess:
I just want to say that the difference between Charismatics and Traditional (Classic) Pentecostals is often greater than between Wisconsin and Missouri synod Lutherans. So I am not sure that is a valid comparison.

You realize that all the Lutherans world-wide share a single package ... even the Apostolic Lutherans.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 203
Kendall Sholtess | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 26 2020 2:40 AM

I hope nothing that I have said will be taken as divisive. I truly have no prejudice against Charismatics. As Faithlife themselves can affirm, my library contains a lot of Charismatic works that I have bought myself. I get a lot out of Charismatic Messianic Rabbi K A Schneider, for instance.

This thread was just meant to bring up a possibility that could be of benefit to Faithlife and Pentecostal pastors and leaders dear to my heart. I am excited to see the church grow, no matter the denomination.

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