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Sam West | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jun 29 2010 10:58 AM

 Nominative, Vocative, Accusative, Accusative and etc are just too much for me. in fact i have never seen these things in my life. Now  Adjectives, nouns, pronouns, verbs, conjunctions i know something about.

Their has to be a short cut.. I mean I have spent hours on some on these things and don't know anymore than when I started. These things will have to be memorized to get a handle on. I thought we were supposed to get away from memorization.

Is there a short cut? Can I eliminate about half the video and concentrate on the things that will help me to know enough that I can do exegesis with in scripture and if so will some tell me what that would be?

Thanks

Sam West

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Sam West | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 29 2010 11:01 AM

Please dont pay any attention to the things below my name. Just trying a short cut on some of the above words.

Never mind. I figured our how to edit

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 29 2010 12:47 PM

SAM WEST:

 Nominative, Vocative, Accusative, Accusative and etc are just too much for me. in fact i have never seen these things in my life. Now  Adjectives, nouns, pronouns, verbs, conjunctions i know something about.

Their has to be a short cut.. I mean I have spent hours on some on these things and don't know anymore than when I started. These things will have to be memorized to get a handle on.

The terms may be new to you. The idea of how they are indicated in a language may be new to you. But just below the surface you know them:

Sam is frustrated. --> Sam is in the nominative because it is used as a subject.

Sam, come here --> Sam is in the vocative because he's being addressed.

Sam's skin is wet -->Sam is in the genitive because he "owns" the skin.

Martha hit Sam --> Sam is in the accusative because he's the recipient of the action.

Do you get the idea? To understand how the cases work, try the following.

1. For each case find a very simple sentence that is in the case. Use that for your basic understanding.

2. When you hit a sentence that doesn't fit your simple model, add another example for this someone different use of the case.

3. Keep doing this until cases don't frustrate you any more.

You do have to understand cases to understand scripture, but you'll get a better understanding by looking at them in context than you will by memorizing definitions that don't mean anything to you.

PS. I don't have the videos, I speak from experience in learning foreign languages generally.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 29 2010 1:03 PM

SAM WEST:
Nominative, Vocative, Accusative, Accusative and etc are just too much for me. in fact i have never seen these things in my life

You wouldn't see these things unless you learned a language that uses them. MJ's summaries are helpful, IMHO.

In English, and most modern language, sentence structure tells us what is the subject and what is the object of a verb, and which adjective goes with which noun. In Greek it works differently, and, yes, you'll have to learn these to be able to understand what is going on in a simple Greek sentence (even more so with a complex one). What you're learning here is part of the basic grammatical 'language' of Greek.

On the other hand, you might be better off seeing this in action, to understand how it works. People have different learning styles. So it could be that for you, moving ahead is the way to go. Then come back to the lesson later and maybe you'll get it then.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 29 2010 10:06 PM

MJ. Smith:

Sam is frustrated. --> Sam is in the nominative because it is used as a subject.

Sam, come here --> Sam is in the vocative because he's being addressed.

Sam's skin is wet -->Sam is in the genitive because he "owns" the skin.

Martha hit Sam --> Sam is in the accusative because he's the recipient of the action.

Observation: in English, generally genitive changes spelling (adds 's), but other grammatical uses spelled the same.  Greek is a language where grammatical usage changes spelling - word form shows purpose - allows words to be moved in sentence for emphasis.

Also, verb spelling shows action intensity, can include duration - e.g. continuous action in past time => John 1:1 "In the beginning was being the word, ..." 

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 271
Don | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 29 2010 11:27 PM

In English, personal pronouns are usually spelled differently depending on case:

I, we, you, he, she, they = nominative = for subject

my, our, your, his, her, their = genitive = indicates possession or relationship 

me, us, you, him, her, them = accusative = object (direct of indirect) 

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Fred Chapman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 29 2010 11:49 PM

SAM WEST:

 Nominative, Vocative, Accusative, Accusative and etc are just too much for me. in fact i have never seen these things in my life. Now  Adjectives, nouns, pronouns, verbs, conjunctions i know something about.

Their has to be a short cut.. I mean I have spent hours on some on these things and don't know anymore than when I started. These things will have to be memorized to get a handle on. I thought we were supposed to get away from memorization.

Is there a short cut? Can I eliminate about half the video and concentrate on the things that will help me to know enough that I can do exegesis with in scripture and if so will some tell me what that would be?

Thanks

Sam West

I am just getting started with the Greek lessons; but I have gone through all the Hebrew videos one time (I plan to go through a couple more times just to take it a little slower and maybe catch some things I missed on the first review).

With that said, Mike Heiser's approach seems to be more in line with exposing the key elements of Hebrew grammar so that as we work through the english text with the orginal language tools in L4 we can recongize distinctions and interpretive keys.

My strategy right now (it may change as I become more proficient) is to create the visual filters recommended in the videos and keep a good set of notes(e.g. verb stem meanings and significance, etc)  open so I can refer back as needed. I think the more I use the information the less I will have to refer back to my notes.

It would be wonderful if there was some majic way we could all become Hebrew and Greek linguists, but it is doubtful that will be created. Persevere and pray for patience. If you watch the videos one time and take away only one or two helpful things, apply them and then go back later and find one or two more.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 11:51 PM

Don:

In English, personal pronouns are usually spelled differently depending on case:

I, we, you, he, she, they = nominative = for subject

my, our, your, his, her, their = genitive = indicates possession or relationship 

me, us, you, him, her, them = accusative = object (direct of indirect) 

Thanks - noticed one pronoun spelled the same for nominative and accusative Geeked

Old English for singular 2nd person uses thou for nominative and thee for accusative.

Some English bibles use old terms to distinguish between singular and plural 2nd person - can be significant (e.g. John 3:7).

Keep Smiling Smile

 

 

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 1 2010 1:57 AM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Old English for singular 2nd person uses thou for nominative and thee for accusative.

 

Archaic English at some point used to distinguish between the familiar (when addressing children and intimate friends/family) and the formal second person pronoun. (Some modern languages still have that distinction today: e.g., French - tu / vous, and German du / Sie.) "Thee" and "thou" were the familiar forms and "you" was the formal. I don't know when the practice of using Thee and Thou for addressing God arose, but it's interesting that most people nowadays understand it as a more formal and respectful way of addressing him since he is Divine, when it probably was originally a more tender and endearing way.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Some English bibles use old terms to distinguish between singular and plural 2nd person

Right, "ye" was the second person plural nominative, and "you" was the second person plural accusative. (In modern English, there's "y'all" which serves as singular, plural, nominative AND accusative -- at least in the American South.)

"Thy" and "your" were the genitive second person singular and plural, respectively.

I'm not sure what the grammatical term for this form of the pronoun is: mine, ours, yours, his, hers, theirs. But I know that for archaic English the second person of that form is "thine."

"Thine" and "Mine" were also used instead of "thy" and "my" when followed by a word beginning with a vowel or a silent h. For example "if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out" (Matt 18:9, KJV) or "I commune with mine own heart" (Ps 77:6, KJV) or the hymn "Have thine own way, Lord."

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 1 2010 4:34 AM

Rosie Perera:
(In modern English, there's "y'all" which serves as singular, plural, nominative AND accusative -- at least in the American South.)

In the part of the American South in which I was born, raised, and now reside, Ya'll was always plural as a contraction of you all.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 1 2010 6:34 PM

Jack Caviness:

Rosie Perera:
(In modern English, there's "y'all" which serves as singular, plural, nominative AND accusative -- at least in the American South.)

In the part of the American South in which I was born, raised, and now reside, Ya'll was always plural as a contraction of you all.

Wikipedia article includes "All Y'all" variant => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_all

Keep Smiling Smile

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 1 2010 10:56 PM

Rosie Perera:
I'm not sure what the grammatical term for this form of the pronoun is: mine, ours, yours, his, hers, theirs.

In English grammars they are often referred to as possessive pronouns. More generally they are the genitive case of personal pronouns.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 2 2010 2:12 AM

Jack Caviness:

Rosie Perera:
(In modern English, there's "y'all" which serves as singular, plural, nominative AND accusative -- at least in the American South.)

In the part of the American South in which I was born, raised, and now reside, Ya'll was always plural as a contraction of you all.

 

I know several people from the South who also use it when addressing an individual. E.g., a friend of mine from Louisiana who lives in San Antonio now. Lots of people up North use it now too, as it's so well known as a Southernism, and it's charming. The Southern accent is the most contagious I know. If I'm around someone from the South for just a few minutes I start talking with a drawl, even though I've never lived down there. (My friend from San Antonio is up visiting now and I've already started to feel the effect.)

In the Northeast, where I grew up, there's a colloquialism "yous" (or you's, youze, youse, you'se, yooz) which is pretty much equivalent to the Southern "y'all" though less common -- sometimes it's accompanied by "guys" as in "youse guys." It is also sometimes (in a few parts of the Northeast) used for the singular.

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JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 2 2010 3:07 AM

Rosie Perera:
In the Northeast, where I grew up, there's a colloquialism "yous" (or you's, youze, youse, you'se, yooz) which is pretty much equivalent to the Southern "y'all" though less common -- sometimes it's accompanied by "guys" as in "youse guys." It is also sometimes (in a few parts of the Northeast) used for the singular.

"Yous" or y'all etc make more sense if used for plural, to be different from singular.

I often have a Visual Filter turned on, that marks up "2nd Person Plural Pronouns", so that "you" and "yous", in the Greek, stand out as different.

I don't have this Video Series(*), but the point of learning Greek or Hebrew is, in part, to "see" things our English Bible hides away. In this case, there can be important aspects of meaning, once we know if Jesus said something to "you" or "yous".

Note in the graphics below: Once we know some language skills, its possible to bring that into your english translations with Visual Filters. This must be one of the coolest and most useful simple ways to bring out additional "hidden" meaning.

Clearly, one should modify such filters to whatever the focus is. I tend to leave this one enabled.

(*) Now that the price has gone up, its way too late to change my mind now, and buy the videos anyway. Ops!

EDIT: Typo fixed in important name

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PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 2 2010 4:02 AM

Jim,

This visual filter is extremely useful. Thanks for sharing this!

Peter

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JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 2 2010 5:25 AM

PeterLi:
Thanks for sharing this!

You are welcome.

To be fair, I got the general idea from someone else in an earlier post some time back. So I'm not attempting to claim the credit. Its just such a good idea, its too good to not share.

Use a more subtle highlighting style to suit your own methods. And turn it on or off to suit.

I have a different one, keyed off "exult" and "exalt" in english, which also appears in the graphic above. I heard one being used by a speaker and I was confused, so looked them both up. One is about something we do inside us (rejoice), and the other, we do outside, to another (lift up). Its a bit deeper than that, but a few weeks ago I did not know there were these two words that sound about the same, but very different meanings. The Visual Filters tool is a great way to compair/contrast all kinds of ideas.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 2 2010 5:56 AM

Rosie Perera:
In the Northeast, where I grew up, there's a colloquialism "yous" (or you's, youze, youse, you'se, yooz) which is pretty much equivalent to the Southern "y'all" though less common -- sometimes it's accompanied by "guys" as in "youse guys." It is also sometimes (in a few parts of the Northeast) used for the singular.

I remember those pronoun substitutes from the years I lived in foreign countries (New England and New Jersey). (For a true North Carolinian those are foreign)  Big Smile

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 2 2010 1:19 PM

Jack Caviness:
from the years I lived in foreign countries (New England and New Jersey). (For a true North Carolinian those are foreign) 

Ah, yes, I went to college with a South Carolinian born in Rhode Island - her father was a naval admiral. She blamed everything on her foreign birth, even being sneezed on by an elephant on her 6th birthday ... and, yes, her whole life has been like that.Big Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 5 2010 6:57 AM

MJ. Smith:
being sneezed on by an elephant on her 6th birthday

Yuk!

Martha, that entire story was really funny. Thanks for the laugh.

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