Logos Reader

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Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 11:50 AM

JT (alabama24):

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):
These are Logos editions already

Sorry to be pedantic, but that doesn't make sense. You have just introduced a new "edition" type which didn't exist before. If you decide to give them more functionality, then they would become a different "edition" type, right? 

I must say I’m worried and confused about this. I’m hoping we aren’t getting ebooks at logos prices just for the sake of speed. Quality is better to me

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Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 12:54 PM

JT (alabama24):

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):
These are Logos editions already

Sorry to be pedantic, but that doesn't make sense. You have just introduced a new "edition" type which didn't exist before. If you decide to give them more functionality, then they would become a different "edition" type, right? 

Yes. I see what you're saying. I probably shouldn't have used the word "edition" there. That was confusing.

FWIW, here's how we're thinking about it (bare with me):

There are Logos books and ebooks. Ebooks are created automatically and though they share a common file type, they are quite different than Logos books. For example, when we make a Logos resource out of an ebook, we really have to remake the entire resource.

Logos books are hand created and hand tagged. If we were to add markup, we would just "recycle" the resource (essentially the same thing we'd do to fix a typo). Research editions and reader editions are both created this way. The difference is that the reader editions don't receive the same level of markup as a research edition. So if we updated the markup it would still be a Logos book, it would just have the tagging level of a research edition.

We discussed a lot of different ways to refer to the two different tagging levels and "edition" made the most sense.

A simple way to put it would be:

There are two types of Logos books:

1. Research editions

2. Reader editions

And there is one type of ebook.

I feel like a lot of that is inside baseball ... I hope it makes some sense.

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Mattillo:

JT (alabama24):

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):
These are Logos editions already

Sorry to be pedantic, but that doesn't make sense. You have just introduced a new "edition" type which didn't exist before. If you decide to give them more functionality, then they would become a different "edition" type, right? 

I must say I’m worried and confused about this. I’m hoping we aren’t getting ebooks at logos prices just for the sake of speed. Quality is better to me

That is not the intent. The intent is to identify books that don't necessarily require full markup but wouldn't necessarily make sense as just an ebook. Rather than stick those books on pre-pub and wait for costs to be covered for a full markup or not do them at all, we wanted to find a way to get them into Logos.

The quality will be the same as any existing Logos resource. The difference is the level of markup. 

Note that we are calling out on the product pages when a book is a reader edition so you will know before you place an order.

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scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 1:20 PM

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):

The quality will be the same as any existing Logos resource. The difference is the level of markup. 

Note that we are calling out on the product pages when a book is a reader edition so you will know before you place an order.

I, in my mind, have used the term ''lower quality'' for FLEBs.

For me: more mark up = higher quality......and hence, the opposite obtains, as well.

Now, a poser. Hmmm.  A high quality reader edition that is lower quality than a research edition.

Sooo, what am I not getting in the reader edition AND do I figure the price has been lowered to // the reduced features.

Where is a chart I can measure a book against, to factually assess this new species of Logos offering.

I, a Canadian, am an admirer of New York governor A. Cuomo, and his logical, sequential method of navigating this crisis.  Works for me!!

May I have the facts, please, Logos?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 1:22 PM

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):
The quality will be the same as any existing Logos resource. The difference is the level of markup. 

I like this approach - far better than promising more tagging than is financially feasible or functionally needed. However, that means for researchers it is essential that standard label templates (styles) be provided by Logos and that community tagging values be more comprehensive so that one can add the additional tagging as needed for a particular project.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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scooter:

Research Edition versus Reader Edition:

Being able to read superscripts is very important to me.  I mean all superscripts, not just Bible references.

Re Reader Edition:  Can I read the complete text of all superscripts?

Assuming you're talking about footnotes, footnotes in Logos Reader editions will be exactly the same as the footnotes you're used to in Logos Research editions (which were called "Logos editions" until last week).

scooter:
I cannot highlight superscripts.  Some are lengthy, and to be able to underline the important part would be sweet.  Come on FL, lets get this done for L9!!!

This is a longstanding known issue with footnotes in Logos resources (of any edition). Any updates will be posted to this suggestion: https://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-6/suggestions/822227-provide-the-ability-to-mark-up-footnotes

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scooter:
Sooo, what am I not getting in the reader edition

I don't know for sure (so take this with a grain of salt), but it's probably extra (invisible) markup like {Label} tagging, which is time-consuming and expensive to add when the resource is being created.

As the reply to the OP showed, "rich markup [and] detailed tagging" are only in Logos Research editions.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 1:56 PM

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):
The quality will be the same as any existing Logos resource. The difference is the level of markup.

That seems to be a contradiction. The way some may see it, the less markup, the lower the quality.

The whole premise of Logos is that its power comes from being able to use its tools and features to quickly find information due to the Logos edition markup.

The notion of a partial markup book seems inferior, even inadequate, to a full markup book. A Logos Reader edition may not appear in some results because it lacks “the robust treatment given to reference works.”

Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

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PetahChristian:
That seems to be a contradiction. The way some may see it, the less markup, the lower the quality.

If that is how you define quality, then yes, they are lower quality.

What I'm getting at is that ebooks often have poor formatting, images don't show up properly, etc. Reader editions won't have those quality issues.

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 2:09 PM

PetahChristian:

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):
The quality will be the same as any existing Logos resource. The difference is the level of markup.

That seems to be a contradiction. The way some may see it, the less markup, the lower the quality.

The whole premise of Logos is that its power comes from being able to use its tools and features to quickly find information due to the Logos edition markup.

The point is that sometimes there's no need or benefit in additional markup. The book that started this thread is fiction by George MacDonald. He is well-known for having preachers in his novels hold sermons or lengthy theological discussions. Of course it makes sense to have bible verse tagging for such a resource, but you probably won't find footnotes or other need for tagging there. The same goes for many resources that are popular level "christian living" or even lighter theological books. Having them in Logos is great, having them as Logos Reader editions instead of as eBooks makes sure we don't see glaring formatting issues and the bible references really go where they should go. So in my opinion and current understanding, all the reference and tagging that can and should be there, is there. 

It would be unfortunate to see very academic discussions and technical commentaries that interact a lot with other published works as "Logos readers editions" (unless there's a way for users to crowd-supply missing tagging especially links)  

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NB.Mick:
It would be unfortunate to see very academic discussions and technical commentaries that interact a lot with other published works as "Logos readers editions" (unless there's a way for users to crowd-supply missing tagging especially links)  

That is not the plan. We intend to give those resources all the markup we can.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 2:36 PM

NB.Mick:
The point is that sometimes there's no need or benefit in additional markup.

I think that is exactly the point and I applaud Faithlife for doing this. My only concern is that it may appear to be part of a slippery slope where more and more resources fall into this category. Has a clear line been drawn for this?

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Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 3:08 PM

scooter:
The page on this issue is vague, because it is ''marketing-written''.  Best for me would be a chart with checked-off boxes detailing what features are provided for each type of volume.

I have read the whole thread so far and still would like to see a clearer explanation.  The more I read, the clearer it became.  But it is still vague, not clear.  I like the idea and the reasoning behind the idea, but I am still unclear as to what this is.

Two types of Logos editions seems to mean that there are the usual editions (Logos Gold, Silver etc) and now there is a new edition called reader.  Are there Reader packages?  or are they only resources?  How will we know what resource is a research resource or a reader resource? 

Actually, if what I have written so far is accurate, then there are now 3 editions:  Research, Reader and ebook. 

As I wrote, if I understand this (and I am not sure I do), then I like the idea of hopefully seeing books that are not currently in digital format that are sitting on my desk, finally be put into digital format, even if only in Reader edition. 

But please correct my understanding if this is way off the mark. 

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 3:26 PM

Mark:
Two types of Logos editions seems to mean that there are the usual editions (Logos Gold, Silver etc) and now there is a new edition called reader. 

No. There were Logos editions (filter the library by edition:l ) and ebooks (formerly Vyrso and Noet eBooks, edition:e ) and PBs, user-created, thus edition:u . Faithlife sold only Logos editions in the base packages (Gold, Silver whatever) and on Logos.com and Verbum.com - even if those books in some cases didn't have tagging. 

Mark:
Are there Reader packages?  or are they only resources? 
 

They are always and only resources. Even the resources that have "Readers Edition" in their title are still Logos Research editions from the way they are produced and designated in Logos. The publishers leave off the footnotes, thus making them cheaper to produce and more appealing to less academic minded customers. Technically there is only one resource in all of the say 50k resources available for Logos that has been designated as edition:"logos reader". 

Mark:
How will we know what resource is a research resource or a reader resource? 

It says so on the product page

Mark:
there are now 3 editions:  Research, Reader and ebook. 
yes, but plus User = PBs, so it's four

Mark:
I like the idea of hopefully seeing books that are not currently in digital format that are sitting on my desk, finally be put into digital format, even if only in Reader edition. 

That's my hope as well.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 3:29 PM

Consider the introductory light reading series "for Armchair Theologians" from WJK - a nice series. But do we really need the names and dates tagged? Most people searching for tags would want meatier books ... but if I really wanted them to show up, I could use community tags and save everyone some money.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 3:50 PM

MJ. Smith:
if I really wanted them to show up, I could use community tags and save everyone some money

How much is your time worth to add those tags yourself (versus FL doing it)?

I’ve been patiently waiting a long time for Carta to be available in Logos, but if FL ever shipped a Reader edition of a Carta resource, I’d wonder why I just didn’t settle on Carta in Accordance, years ago.

Lower resource cost shouldn’t justify lower functionality.

Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

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Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 3:58 PM

NB.Mick:

Mark:
How will we know what resource is a research resource or a reader resource? 

It says so on the product page

What I meant was:  How will I know in my Logos Library (not the product page) which resources are research and which are reader?  In other words, which resources have less functionality and I should expect less functionality.

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 5:00 PM

So can there be 3 Supernatural books one research edition, another reader’s edition and yet another ebook edition? Will the price be less on the ebook, a little more on the reader’s edition and then more expensive for the research edition?

This new concept (reader’s edition) doesn’t seem like a good idea in my opinion.  I thought ebooks were simple for the purpose of reading only, yet, technically, we’re still able to ”read” all of them 🤔🤨 confusing 🤷‍♂️ 

DAL

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 5:15 PM

PetahChristian:
How much is your time worth to add those tags yourself (versus FL doing it)?

Given the number of older works that FL has not gotten around to updating, I doubt very much that it will add very much tagging time for those I do myself. However, it should free them up to get to some of the books I am annoyed they haven't prioritized. I've learned to accept that the books I use most and need tagged are not the same as many of their users.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 8 2020 5:20 PM

Mark:
How will I know in my Logos Library (not the product page) which resources are research and which are reader?  In other words, which resources have less functionality and I should expect less functionality.

I understand your point but I'm already in that situation - which resources work with <biography Justin Martyr> versus "Justin Martyr" is the case discussed in the forums a couple of days ago.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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