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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 5 2010 6:36 PM

David:
One man's art, though is another man's clutter

David, I think if you spend just a little time exploring Version 4 you will "get it" quickly. Each new discovery makes it more fun.

Besides having Logos 4, I stilll have Libronix version 3 and the UIs are quite different.  It is really cool I can run my huge library of resources under two very different interfaces.  (Three, if you count the iPhone app.)

I hope Bob decides to re-brand the Libronix interface as "Logos Classic", bring it back to market, and maintain support for it indefinitely. That is how great I think BOTH user interfaces are. Form & Function, as they say.

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David | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 5 2010 7:35 PM

William Bingham:

Matthew C Jones:

 Simplified User Interface:

   Duhh, does a DoubleBurger gots 2 or 3 meats on it?

Next thing it needs is pictures of the coins & bills so the users can properly count back change.

Matthew, I agree but I think one thing needs to be added.  They need the pictures of the coins and bills AND a calculator to have them give the correct change in the first place.  Have you not noticed all the places that are going to the machine that drops the change for the cashier.  These company's must do that.  9 out of 10 times these cashiers can't make change.

 

I think Matthew's characterization is unfair in the sense that most of the plant workers I've met are intelligent people. Nevertheless, UIs for them cannot be made too simple, even to the point of his caricature. I have a feeling that Matthew is being a little arrogant, and doesn't know what it's like to make a living in a factory environment. The goal is to get through the day as smoothly as possible to get the paycheck and feel good about doing an honest day's work. Finding the groove and rhythm doing repetitive physical labor is very important. Applications that disrupt this momentum due to developers not fully doing their job cost operators time, energy, take a toll on the worker, and ultimately cost the business money due to lost productivity. This same concept applies to all levels. For me, investigation is an intense mental process that suffers when I can't automatically do things with software, and have to take time to figure something out because the developers weren't aware of  this functional requirement. Or they had the awareness, but the management created a work context that made its implementation impossible.

 

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 5 2010 7:51 PM

David:
I think Matthew's characterization is unfair in the sense that most of the plant workers I've met are intelligent people.

I have done my best to see why you think Matthew characterized plant worker - leave alone unfairly. What I am struggling with is understanding what in Logos is not working for you. You gave two concrete examples that have been dealt with previously.  You say:

David:
have to take time to figure something out because the developers weren't aware of  this functional requirement.

yet, you don't give us examples of functional requirements that you believe the developers were unaware of. I've given you one example - full page interlinears - which Logos has addressed. And we can certainly quibble over priorities on the unfinished features. And from my perspective, the developers didn't quite get the functional requirements of lectionaries right. But I don't think these are your issues.

We could make this thread ever so much more effective if your could list some of the functional requirements that you think the developers were unaware of. Some we may be able to tell you how to access, some that it is coming, and some, you're right that wasn't considered apparently But as long as you give us blanket statements expressing your frustration, there is little we can do to help..

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 5 2010 8:53 PM

MJ, I think we could probably beat this horse forever. But I don't think we need to because I think Bob P. has made it clear that L4 is based on a paradigm shift, that involves the rejection (not totally, but enough to cause grief) of time-tested, proven, intuitive conventions, methodologies, etc. that have made Windows apps that incorporate said conventions extremely efficient to use, due to their intuitive, efficient nature that when internalized can be applied automatically. That's fine. He has his vision, and can do what he wants. I really don't want to spend a lot of time thinking about this any more because it will avail nothing. I had hoped that L4 would correct the very awkward cumbersomeness of L3. Some things have greatly improved with L4, but there is still an awkwardness to it that tells me Logos has never really understood what makes Windows so powerful (even though it's crappy in a lot of respects), or how to develop a truly excellent and efficient Windows app. I know people will disagree with me, but I disagree with them. So let's just let a dead horse lie.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 5 2010 9:21 PM

David:
So let's just let a dead horse lie.

As a ten year old, I collected most of a horse skeleton to put together like dinosaurs in museums. Unfortunately, it turned out to be pieces of two horses of differing sizes ... and my wiring it together technique was lacking effectiveness..

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 5 2010 9:26 PM

David:
I think Matthew's characterization is unfair in the sense that most of the plant workers I've met are intelligent people. Nevertheless, UIs for them cannot be made too simple, even to the point of his caricature. I have a feeling that Matthew is being a little arrogant, and doesn't know what it's like to make a living in a factory environment.

I was joking about the need for simpler UIs in general. I've been a union member for 31 years running. I worked almost 20 years for GM & Delphi. I tend to find blue collar workers are very intelligent. And so are most Bible software users.

Skip this if you're not interested:

In 1979 I was hired by General Motors as a trainer in the Trim department of the new OKC assembly plant. There were 600 jobs in that department. I learned most of them and helped train the new employees. The OKC plant had the highest educated workforce of all 26 assembly plants. There were more teachers, MDs, PhDs, JDs, ThDs RNs and MBAs in those 5800 employees than you would ever imagine. I know this from my work on the UAW Education Committee. We helped union members apply their tuition benefits.

I then went in to electrical repair and programming. I eventually transferred to Delphi programming machine controls & writing a few user interfaces. We built a clean room in the dirtiest enviroment you've ever seen. The air was so oily we had to use purge units to be able to breathe. I became a "shop rat" spending weeks at a time in the plants without going home, sleeping in the locker rooms and working 16 hours a day. I am as blue-collar as I could get, and proud of it! If I am arrogant, it is because I was a factory worker.

Edit: Oh David, I apologize to you and anyone else that thinks I was dissing plant workers.

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William | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 5 2010 10:40 PM

David:
]I think Matthew's characterization is unfair in the sense that most of the plant workers I've met are intelligent people.

I believe that you are carrying what Matthew characterized way too far.  He is saying nothing about the Human Resource itself.

Logos is very user friendly.  I have a few other commercial products that I use and there is absolutely nothing like the support we get from Logos and the community.  This interface in L4 is wonderful.  It does take a little extra time as any new software does.  However, the time I have needed to get going in Logos is MUCH MUCH MUCH lower than say Quicken.  I have set up a couple different accounts on that and inevitably had to change something because I thought it was saying something else.  Trying to perform some functions and such......wow.

Now, I might have carried things a bit far on my post, but, I am speaking from experience myself.  I was a high school math and science teacher.  A number of my students in math could not deal with decimals or fractions.  I would have rather taken the calculator away and let them struggle some more....If they try...students can do it.  Well, in our educational system infinite wisdom the teachers are told just give them a calculator and move on.  What happens in the work force?McDonalds, Burger King, etc.don't even give a test to see if a person can make correct change.  I have experienced way to often cashiers that can not make proper change.  I recently went to Wendy's and saw a sign that the cashier is trained in counterfit money detection.At the end of the order as I was handed my food, I asked the cashier who is on the 10 dollar bill?  He/she did not know.  There is a problem here and I am absolutely sure that the interface of Logos, Quicken, or what ever Windows, Mac, Linux, machine you pick will not make a hill of beans.

 

Posts 49
David | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 6 2010 4:38 AM

@Matthew,

I clicked on William's profile when responding thinking I was viewing your profile. That's what made me think you had no plant experience and were just being cocky. Considering your experience, you should know exactly what I'm talking about.

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David | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 6 2010 4:47 AM

@MJ,

I really don't have the desire to put the time or energy into wiring all of the pieces together for anybody. The decisions have been made, the momentum is in play, and the market will take care of things. To put it as simply as I can, if I could spend a few hundreds dollars to convert my library to another platform that serves my needs, I would do it. I have about $500 invested in my library.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 6 2010 7:49 AM

David:
@Matthew, I clicked on William's profile when responding thinking I was viewing your profile. That's what made me think you had no plant experience and were just being cocky. Considering your experience, you should know exactly what I'm talking about.

Read my profile too and you will see William is the smart kid. Geeked This is a sensitive area for me to talk about. My father & brothers are math geniuses. I could never comprehend the subject and they gave up on me after I flunked the Trachtenberg System.  Person Right Hug Mom still loves me though.

I am at a disadvantage because you don't have a profile posted. But by your posts I would say you also should know what I am talking about. We both know our singular experiences pale next to the collective experience of the Logos developers. And when you add the Marketing department and leadership of the CEO, the future looks quite bright to me.

David:
The decisions have been made, the momentum is in play, and the market will take care of things. To put it as simply as I can, if I could spend a few hundreds dollars to convert my library to another platform that serves my needs, I would do it. I have about $500 invested in my library.

I am curious what needs you have that Logos is not able to handle. Logos addresses more needs than any other Bible software. If you ask, there are certainly proficient users who can tell you how they accomplish specific tasks with Logos. Even Morris Proctor occasionally discovers new ways of using Logos' tools. (I mean that in a good way, Mo!  ) It doesn't do everything and users do have their wishlists (Czech Bible, PBBs, Mennonite writings), but considering it is by far the best application for Academics, Theologians, sermon preparation, and (recently) original languages studies  you will be settling for inferior products to switch. I'm not speaking out of ignorance. I own all the "competitive" products; BW8, WS9, eSW, QV2010, Acc. and 20-something others. There is very little Logos can not do.

At risk of being like King David 1 Chronicles 21:1 & King Hezekiah Isaiah 39:2 ......My present Logos investment retails about $23K.  I did pay a handsome price to move Zondervan titles from Pradis to Logos (even with a 40% discount.) I would gladly pay $500 more to move other "exclusive" content out of the competitors' product into my Logos library.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 6 2010 12:32 PM

David:
To put it as simply as I can, if I could spend a few hundreds dollars to convert my library to another platform that serves my needs, I would do it. I have about $500 invested in my library.

What I am having trouble understanding is why you seem to want to vent rather than asking specific questions to make your investment more useful. I do understand wanting to vent first. I suspect most of us have vented frustration when Logos has not worked as we expect - whether by design, because of missing features or because we've found a bug. However, the market thus far seems to have spoken in favor of Logos 4 so yes, momentum has shifted as well. When, and if, you decide to try again to get more value from your resources, just ask on the forums and we'll be glad to help.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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nicky crane | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 6 2010 1:04 PM

I don't see what the fuss is about.  I have a few criticisms of Logos4, e.g. when I upgraded the info that you need a fast computer and preferably broadband was not conspicuous.  I didn 't find it till I'd ordered.  Fortunately I had a newish computer.  I was annoyed when they said the worst case scenario for downloading was several hours, or something - mine was several days!  The mega-downloads are a pain. Not to be compared to Adobe or Windows downloads, which  I find cause no hassle. The help is not as helpful as it might be, but Customer Support and the forums make up for that.  I've never done a computer course, tho I've learned from friends and experience to encourage my computer to do what I want it to.  I honestly haven't had big problems with Logos4, which I now much prefer to L3.  There are some things I haven't figured out.  But anything I need works for me.  I'd love to take part in a Logos camp, but it's not such a priority that I'd cross the Atlantic for it.  (If you decide to do a camp in Europe, Mo, I'd be interested..)

I'm concerned that this and some other threads include posts which I would classify as character assassination or at any rate insulting.  Could we perhaps aim at more Christian charity and try as far as lies in our power to live peaceably with all men (and women..).  e.g.MJ shows positive encouraging suggestions where she could have written really harshly.

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William | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 6 2010 11:24 PM

Matthew C Jones:
Read my profile too and you will see William is the smart kid. Geeked This is a sensitive area for me to talk about. My father & brothers are math geniuses. I could never comprehend the subject and they gave up on me after I flunked the Trachtenberg System.

Well, Thank you Matthew for that complement.  I just looked at that Trachtenberg System and would have to study it a bit more to understand it.  Just because you fall off the horse does not mean you should never get on it again.  You have a second person that loves you.   I love you as a brother in Christ.  If you want or need math help....you or your family, or friends, I love to help. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 6 2010 11:37 PM

William Bingham:
Trachtenberg System

I have the book Dad bought when the system was first published - I would have placed that in the mid-50's but it may be a bit later. Dad would teach me to do math in my head while I followed him around doing chores - something he was doing several years before he found Trachtenberg, In case you think that is a bit of an unusual upbringing, my brother bought me a calculus book complete with solutions for Christmas when I was in the 4th grade. This is the same brother who taught me the Morris code, forgetting that I didn't read yet. Hey, I was only 4; I had an excuse. That's only the tip of the iceberg to what my much older brother and sister did to me with the best (?) of intentions.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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