Apple Silicon

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Posts 15
Mike Prewitt | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 24 2020 5:46 AM

I don't know what languages, tools and libraries FaithLife used to create Logos on the Mac.

The best case would be that Logos was built in Objective C using Xcode and using mostly Apple frameworks. Then, it's simply a build option to chose the target platform.

The porting effort for Apple arm64 depends on how much they relied on hardware-specific features. If FaithLife relied mostly on Apple frameworks and technologies, their porting effort may be small.

If FaithLife tuned their code specifically for the Intel x86_64 architecture and hardware capabilities, porting to Apple arm64 may require additional effort. For example, if FaithLife interacts with the kernel, contains x86 assembly instructions, manages multiple threads or contains hardware-specific assumptions or performance optimizations, they may have a lot of work to do. Or, if they depend on many third-party libraries, they'll need to wait for those libraries to be converted to arm64 or switch to Apple frameworks.

FaithLife will need to build fat universal macOS binaries that contain both Intel x86-64 and Apple arm64 binaries, so Logos can be distributed in a way that will allow it to run on either an Intel-based Mac or an Apple Silicon Mac.

Until they do, in most cases the x86-64 binaries can run natively on the current Intel-based Macs, and translated by Rosetta 2 on the new Apple Silicon Macs starting to arrive by the end of the year. Of course, FaithLife will need to test Logos on both Intel-based and arm64-based Macs.

Eventually, FaithLife would drop support for Intel-based Macs.

Posts 70
Thomas Zimmermann | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 24 2020 7:30 AM

Steven New:

Realistically the best we could hope for is Logos 9 would be built from the ground up for Apple Silicon, which would mean maybe better iOS support too.

Somehow I doubt this is going to happen.

Logos on Windows and Logos on macOS are essentially the same application, making it easier to support and develop both. They are using the .NET framework from Microsoft.

In the first run, they will recompile the App, and all the code that is "native" x86-64 will be compiled into arm code, too. Most code however should be platform agnostic, anyway. So even those "fat" binaries (thats how they called them in transition times from PowerPC to x86 architechture) should not add too much weight.

That should be enough, I have seen complex software just recompiled with the new xcode toolset, and the resulting binaries working on macOS Big Sur.

If they would "dumb down" the macOS desktop App to have one consistent app shared between iPad, iOS and macOS, that would streamline their Apple device support, but might leave desktop users behind feature wise.

We'll see how it works out in the end. Interesting times.

user since Logos 4

Posts 2456
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 24 2020 7:36 AM

I've read a bit more and apparently Apple isn't leaving Intel any time soon. It just makes a bit harder to determine if you should wait for an ARM machine based on your own usage if you need a new machine. My 2012 Mac Mini will still run Catalina and L8. Nearly eight years old is still amazing.

FL still has to support the existing user base and no one has ARM or Big Sur yet. So L9 still needs to be Intel compatible. Bob will probably need some more Mac coders and I am so glad this headache is not ours. Much ado is mostly not ours to do.

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 15
Mike Prewitt | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 24 2020 7:46 AM

After what Apple showed at WWDC, you’d be crazy to buy a new Mac right now

https://www.macworld.com/article/3563738/you-shouldnt-buy-a-new-mac-right-now.html

Posts 156
Tony Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 24 2020 7:49 AM

If they would "dumb down" the macOS desktop App to have one consistent app shared between iPad, iOS and macOS, that would streamline their Apple device support, but might leave desktop users behind feature wise.

I hope not. Logos on my desktop Mac is almost the only reason I still use my desktop.

×
Posts 15
Mike Prewitt | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 24 2020 8:04 AM

Tony Walker:

I hope not. Logos on my desktop Mac is almost the only reason I still use my desktop.

 

The mobile version of Logos cannot be used for serious study. I use the desktop version on my Mac. I am totally committed to Apple, since I own an iMac, MacBook, iPad Pro, iPhone, Apple Watch, Apple TV, and a half-dozen HomePods.

I have a lot of $ invested in Logos. I may stop purchasing additional resources until they announce they will be supporting Apple Silicon on the Mac.

Any Mac user thinking about buying Logos may wish to hold off as well. I wonder what Accordance is going to do?

Posts 2456
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 24 2020 8:45 AM

Nothing whatsoever indicates to me that anything one currently does in Logos 8 is somehow going to be shoved off the cliff in Big Sur or altered by an ARM processor beyond the likelihood of some genuinely appreciated welcome speed boosts. This will be wonderful.

Hold off on a new Mac and buy more Logos resources. This will soon pass as the nothing burger issue it really is.

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 731
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 24 2020 8:49 AM

mab:

Nothing whatsoever indicates to me that anything one currently does in Logos 8 is somehow going to be shoved off the cliff in Big Sur or altered by an ARM processor beyond the likelihood of some genuinely appreciated welcome speed boosts. This will be wonderful.

Hold off on a new Mac and buy more Logos resources. This will soon pass as the nothing burger issue it really is.

Agreed. Barring some irreconcilable difference between ARM and the Logos program, we’ll see it eventually. The question is how many bumps in the road getting there.

It’s academic to me, since I jumped to PC. But if I still used Mac, I’d be worried 

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Posts 15
Mike Prewitt | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 24 2020 9:59 AM

mab:

Nothing whatsoever indicates to me that anything one currently does in Logos 8 is somehow going to be shoved off the cliff in Big Sur or altered by an ARM processor beyond the likelihood of some genuinely appreciated welcome speed boosts. This will be wonderful.

Hold off on a new Mac and buy more Logos resources. This will soon pass as the nothing burger issue it really is.

Unless FaithLife commits to supporting MacOS 11 on Apple Silicon, someone who replaces his Intel X86-64 Mac with an Apple arm64 Mac may find that Logos won’t run on it. I’m just hoping that FaithLive developers are watching all the WWDC 2020 sessions on migrating your apps to Apple Silicon and that FaithLife starts working on migrating Logos to Apple Silicon.

Posts 2034
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 24 2020 10:16 AM

Mike Prewitt:
I’m just hoping that FaithLive developers are watching all the WWDC 2020 sessions on migrating

As someone from "the other camp", Microsoft is also looking at ARM. They tried it with the Surface (not pro) and they are now trying it with the Surface Pro X. I do not envy the position that Software developers find themselves - writing for legacy (last weekend a post intimated that Logos ought to support 8 year old hardware - https://community.logos.com/forums/t/191502.aspx ) or the future. I'm not a coder, just a pastor, but I wonder if both major hardware companies looking away from Intel and toward their own ARM processors is going to shape the future of Bible Software, or be what MAB calls a "nothing burger"

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 731
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 24 2020 11:29 AM

I imagine that FL would want to make their product compatible with Apple and Windows and would certainly work to keep up with changing hardware

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 24 2020 11:30 AM

Mike Prewitt:
I’m just hoping that FaithLive developers are watching all the WWDC 2020 sessions on migrating your apps to Apple Silicon and that FaithLife starts working on migrating Logos to Apple Silicon.

Having purchased one of the first 100,000 Macs, I seem to have heard this the sky is falling doomsday forecast a time or two previously. Yes, things will change, but then, they always have changed.

Posts 15
Mike Prewitt | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 24 2020 11:52 AM

Jack Caviness:

Mike Prewitt:
I’m just hoping that FaithLive developers are watching all the WWDC 2020 sessions on migrating your apps to Apple Silicon and that FaithLife starts working on migrating Logos to Apple Silicon.

Having purchased one of the first 100,000 Macs, I seem to have heard this the sky is falling doomsday forecast a time or two previously. Yes, things will change, but then, they always have changed.

I haven’t heard anyone speak about a sky is falling doomsday forecast. Just rational thoughts and questions regarding the Logos migration to Apple SoC’s.

Posts 731
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 25 2020 6:12 AM

This might be an Apples (no pun intended) to Oranges comparison, but I thought this was interesting when it comes to ARM replacing intel. So, for whatever it’s worth:

https://www.laptopmag.com/news/macbooks-on-arm-wont-support-boot-camp-virtualization-is-needed-to-run-windows-10?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 25 2020 1:55 PM

Mike Prewitt:

The mobile version of Logos cannot be used for serious study. I use the desktop version on my Mac. I am totally committed to Apple, since I own an iMac, MacBook, iPad Pro, iPhone, Apple Watch, Apple TV, and a half-dozen HomePods.

I have a lot of $ invested in Logos. I may stop purchasing additional resources until they announce they will be supporting Apple Silicon on the Mac.

Currently Faithlife supports all Mac models that can run macOS 10.14 Mojave or newer (public release) => https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360007506971-Logos-Minimum-System-Requirements Anticipating Faithlife to support macOS Big Sur on all Mac models available for public purchase, including Apple Silicon. Personal purchase pause is future replacement of a 2013 MacBook Air, which can run macOS Big Sur. Like idea of Apple Silicon laptop for running desktop (heavy) application and mobile (lite) apps, especially if Apple Silicon laptop includes touch screen.

Logos Wiki => Logos Release History includes first release with fix(es) for a new Apple Operating System: e.g. Logos & Verbum 8.8 was the first supported release for public macOS 10.15 Catalina. Logos & Verbum prior to 8.8 have crash issues on macOS 10.15 Catalina.

Mike Prewitt:
Eventually, FaithLife would drop support for Intel-based Macs.

Humanly anticipate Faithlife dropping support for Intel-based Macs a few years after Apple stops supporting older Intel-based Mac models for new Operating Systems. Noticed several 2013 Mac models can run 2020 macOS Big Sur release:

Keep Smiling Smile

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 25 2020 3:50 PM

David Wanat:
This might be an Apples (no pun intended) to Oranges comparison, but I thought this was interesting when it comes to ARM replacing intel. So, for whatever it’s worth:

Noted "As reported by The Verge, Microsoft only licenses Windows 10 on ARM to PC vendors making "Always-connected PCs" or those with Qualcomm processors."

Geekbench for Android => https://browser.geekbench.com/android-benchmarks currently shows the fastest Qualcomm Snapdragon has Single-Core 905 and Multi-Core 3318 benchmarks, which are slower than iOS => https://browser.geekbench.com/ios-benchmarks showing Apple's A13 Bionic (in iPhone 11) has Single-Core 1327 and Multi-Core 3390 (with Apple's A12Z Multi-Core being 4625). Compared to the fastest Single-Core Intel Core i9 in Mac => https://browser.geekbench.com/mac-benchmarks having Single-Core 1244 and Multi-Core 8285, Apple's A13 Bionic Single-Core is ~7 % faster. Apple's A12Z Multi-Core being faster than A13 Bionic shows Apple has more Multi-Core performance potential.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 731
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 25 2020 5:42 PM

Interesting, but I really don’t know what to use as a baseline in figuring the benchmarks compared to what I do know. (My laptop is a 9750h and my iPad Air apparently has an A12)

My initial interest was whether macos on ARM would be compatible with Software on Intel. Now I think I know less about computers than when I started. 😉

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 25 2020 6:00 PM

I have no idea if Apple Silicon will help make my dreams of running full Logos on my iPad a reality...iPad OS and MacOS will still be significantly different. That said...PLEASE, whatever it takes!

Full Logos on my iPad would be a dream come true.

Maybe Apple will someday make it so that MacOS apps can just run on the iPad(?)

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 25 2020 6:47 PM

Jacob Hantla:
Full Logos on my iPad would be a dream come true.

I think there are many of us that would like to see that come to pass!

Jacob Hantla:
Maybe Apple will someday make it so that MacOS apps can just run on the iPad(?)

Possibly. Still, it's a whole lot easier to get iOS apps running on macOS, but a whole lot more complicated to get macOS apps running on iPadOS.

My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

Posts 731
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 25 2020 6:55 PM

Doesn’t FL recommend some sort of graphics card for optimal performance on the desktop? Unless the iPad Pro has it and I missed it, I imagine there might be a performance decline if I’m not wrong (again)

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