Apple Silicon

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This post has 109 Replies | 14 Followers

Posts 2839
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 20 2020 8:59 AM

Here's a thought. You can read right on these forums that Logos 9 currently runs on Rosetta like an i9 Intel machine Mac. Are you actually going to see a tangible improvement in native? There's already an improvement on Big Sur and L9 is already an improvement over L8. 

Would it be right for FL to hold up improving Logos 9 for everyone to speed up performance tables for a few? I would much rather see FL do what they are doing already. L9 appears to be working pretty good without any fanfare from FL. That's why I use Logos. I know FL is on it for the future without me even asking.

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 30488
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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 20 2020 9:00 AM

PetahChristian:
Voting is more likely to speed things up than not voting.

...or not. A dearth of people voting on it compared to other items might scare them away. Surprise Stick out tongue

I am only half kidding. I think it is neither going to hurt OR help the cause. Voting on other things is more important... especially on things which arent destined to happen anyway. 

macOS, iOS & iPadOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 47
Mike Prewitt | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 20 2020 9:14 AM

I currently run Logos 9 on macOS 11 Big Sur on two 2019 Intel-based Macs and it runs very well on both of them.

  • 27-inch iMac with Retina 5K display, 3.6GHz 8-core 9th-generation Intel Core i9 processor w/Turbo Boost up to 5.0GHz, 16GB 2666MHz DDR4 memory, Radeon Pro 580X with 8GB of GDDR5 memory, 1TB SSD storage

  • 15-inch MacBook Pro, 2.3GHz 8-core 9th-generation Intel Core i9 processor w/Turbo Boost up to 4.8GHz, 16GB 2400MHz DDR4 memory, Radeon Pro 560X with 4GB of GDDR5 memory, 1TB SSD storage

I just ordered the following Apple Silicon MacBook, and I'm hoping that the performance of Logos 9 under Rosetta is as fast as my existing Intel Macs.

  • 13-inch MacBook Pro, Apple M1 chip with 8-core CPU and 8-core GP and 16-core Neural Engine, 16GB unified memory, 1TB SSD storage

If it does, I can wait a bit for FaithLife to provide a universal Logos 9 app that contains both Intel x86 and Apple Silicon (M1) code.

Posts 3992
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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 20 2020 9:14 AM

Nathan Parker:
I’m putting together a list of apps updated for Apple Silicon.

Found this site today: https://doesitarm.com/

Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

Posts 2122
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 20 2020 5:01 PM

PetahChristian:

Nathan Parker:
I’m putting together a list of apps updated for Apple Silicon.

Found this site today: https://doesitarm.com/

Great! Added it to my list. My list is here:

https://www.askwoody.com/forums/topic/ongoing-list-of-mac-apps-updated-for-universal-apple-silicon-support/#post-2313222

Nathan Parker

Posts 10888
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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2020 3:35 AM

Nathan Parker:

Nathan, adding a space after a web address will make it active.

Posts 611
Gregory Lawhorn | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2020 5:05 AM

In case you missed it, https://community.logos.com/forums/t/196476.aspx

Posts 2122
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2020 5:03 PM

Jack Caviness:

Nathan Parker:

Nathan, adding a space after a web address will make it active.

Thanks. I thought I did, but I guess I hit Post too quickly. :-)

Nathan Parker

Posts 47
Mike Prewitt | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2020 8:13 AM

A nice summary of the Apple M1 Macs (with several review videos and benchmarking) is available at:

https://9to5mac.com/2020/11/17/apple-m1-mac-reviews/ 

Posts 1054
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 23 2020 3:15 PM

I’d recommend https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-tested/

in which it was said

The performance of the new M1 in this “maximum performance” design with a small fan is outstandingly good. The M1 undisputedly outperforms the core performance of everything Intel has to offer, and battles it with AMD’s new Zen3, winning some, losing some. And in the mobile space in particular, there doesn’t seem to be an equivalent in either ST or MT performance – at least within the same power budgets.

What’s really important for the general public and Apple’s success is the fact that the performance of the M1 doesn’t feel any different than if  you were using a very high-end Intel or AMD CPU. Apple achieving this in-house with their own design is a paradigm shift, and in the future will allow them to achieve a certain level of software-hardware vertical integration that just hasn’t been seen before and isn’t achieved yet by anybody else.

My summary:

- M1 bare metal is very fast comparing to competition

- M1 running x86 (Rosetta 2) is in most cases beating all Apple Intel Macs. This is the kind of perf. you Should look at for Logos now as native doesn’t exist yet.

- if you just push raw power (ie FLOPS), M1 and competitions are more similar. But for mixed workload M1 is usually faster. My personal take is that it is due to the unified memory on the die itself. IIRC I have never seen anyone else in the industry outing 16 GB of memory on the die where the CPU, GPU, tensor cores etc resides. They all shared the same memory and with vertical integration they can avoid unnecessary copy between them. This is a huge performance booster. My bet is that it would benefits the kind of workload Logos does.

TL;DR: running Logos now (via Rosetta 2) should have not much worse experience from Intel Mac. If one day Logos for Apple Silicon is released natively it should have a noticeable boost.

Posts 9
Bob Lozano | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 24 2020 9:44 PM

Kolen Cheung:
My personal take is that it is due to the unified memory on the die itself.

Beginning to suspect this may be the single strongest move in what is looking to be a great design.

Kolen Cheung:
TL;DR: running Logos now (via Rosetta 2) should have not much worse experience from Intel Mac. If one day Logos for Apple Silicon is released natively it should have a noticeable boost.

Mostly agree, and that has been my experience so far (m1 mbair 16MB / 1TB, mbp 16 32 GB / 2TB, iMac 27, high specs).

However I'm tending to suspect that for an app like verbum/logos, the biggest gain from going native will be lower power consumption. YMMV though, especially if they  implement significant machine learning / adaptive techniques.

Posts 1054
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 25 2020 4:19 AM

Bob Lozano:

Kolen Cheung:
My personal take is that it is due to the unified memory on the die itself.

Beginning to suspect this may be the single strongest move in what is looking to be a great design.

Kolen Cheung:
TL;DR: running Logos now (via Rosetta 2) should have not much worse experience from Intel Mac. If one day Logos for Apple Silicon is released natively it should have a noticeable boost.

Mostly agree, and that has been my experience so far (m1 mbair 16MB / 1TB, mbp 16 32 GB / 2TB, iMac 27, high specs).

However I'm tending to suspect that for an app like verbum/logos, the biggest gain from going native will be lower power consumption. YMMV though, especially if they  implement significant machine learning / adaptive techniques.

memory on die is a compromise in another way. I wouldn’t be surprised in the future Mac Pro level Apple silicon to have another hierarchical memory, like a smaller 16GB on die and another 128GB out there. (Hard to imagine putting all 128GB or even 256 on it, or may be more clever interconnect, soldered memory on board.)

Posts 611
Gregory Lawhorn | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 25 2020 4:46 AM

Kolen Cheung:

memory on die is a compromise in another way. I wouldn’t be surprised in the future Mac Pro level Apple silicon to have another hierarchical memory, like a smaller 16GB on die and another 128GB out there. (Hard to imagine putting all 128GB or even 256 on it, or may be more clever interconnect, soldered memory on board.)

But with Apple's new way of utilizing RAM, 128GB may never again be necessary. They might hit 32GB with the larger MacBook and Pro, and find that it's just not necessary to increase the amount. 

For example, I'm on my 4th Subaru Outback. My first was a 4-cylinder, and it was really underpowered, so #2 and #3 were six-cylinder. When I bought my new one this past February I was told that Subaru doesn't have a 6-cylinder Outback any longer, BUT they have 4-cylinder turbo. I get better mileage than with the 6-cylinder, and when I put my foot down it jumps pretty quick. 

Posts 1054
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 25 2020 4:58 AM

But for Pro you can’t say it wont be needed. I have datasets that couldnt fit in 128GB memory.

for Pro, you could imagine someone processing gigapixel photos or larger, with multiple layers, etc. just for those to fit in memory could easily exhaust whatever amount of RAM you have. Basically if you give people enough amount of RAM, they can always has a problem that can exhaust it.

Unified memory allows you to avoid unnecessary copy. Say if you have a chunk of memory from the CPU, and you want to put them to the GPU for further processing, that memory is then needed to copy from your main memory to the GPU‘s memory. This not only is a waste of memory space, and is also a bottleneck for latency. Unified memory kills those 2 birds in 1 stone. (For non compute intensive program, like Logos most of the time, memory latency is the biggest bottleneck. Some you cannot avoid, but some others can be avoided by not having to copy.)

by the way, memory for CPU and for GPU has different requirements, one opt for random access another for throughput more. Having unified memory means you can’t choose the best RAM for the task needed. So there’s always Compromised.

also by the way, avoiding copy is not new either, famously some gaming console is doing it for years IIRC. but here Apple put them on die to lower the latency perhaps also power consumption.

Posts 1127
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 25 2020 11:02 AM

Alright guys check this video "M1 Mac Mini & M1 MacBook Air powering Six external monitors" !!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq_FyjcAULA  

L4 BS, L5 RB, & L5 Gold, L6 Platinum & Reformed Platinum, L7 Platinum, L8 Baptist Platinum, L9 Baptist Platinum.
2021 MacBook Pro M1 Pro 14" 16GB 512GB SSD, running MacOS Monterey   iPad Mini 4,   iPhone 8.

Posts 2839
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 25 2020 2:52 PM

Just when the wallet is ready to come out:

https://www.tomsguide.com/uk/news/macbook-pro-16-inch-m1x-chip-just-leaked-and-its-game-over-for-intel 

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 17
G.E. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 4 2021 4:52 AM

Now that it is March 2021, hoping for some further news on Logos for Apple Silicon M1, beyond them advising that Logos runs on Rosetta 2. It'd be nice to hear that FL/Logos is working on a Universal app that'll run native on M1.

Posts 19594
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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 4 2021 6:21 AM

G.E.:
It'd be nice to hear that FL/Logos is working on a Universal app that'll run native on M1.

Please Vote => Native Support for Apple Silicon Processors currently has 40 votes with Status of "Planned"

Caveat: new feedback needs a separate login so please vote => Add the feedback website to the Faithlife SSO system currently has 12 votes.

FYI: Apple is offering Refurbished M1 Mac models => https://www.apple.com/shop/refurbished/mac/2020

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 256
Tony Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 4 2021 7:21 AM

I didn't take the time to read deeply into the story, but this week at MacRumors there was a link that said the newest beta OS update had language that said something along the lines of Rosetta 2 would not work in certain countries. The top few comments speculated it was something about gov and exports. others said it was maybe placeholder text. But if true, that sounds like a abrupt way to make the transition process smooth. 

Posts 3260
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 4 2021 8:34 AM

G.E.:
It'd be nice to hear that FL/Logos is working on a Universal app that'll run native on M1.

We'll be moving to .NET 6 later this year (the first preview was released a couple of weeks ago), which brings native M1 support: "The new Apple M1 Arm64 chips received a lot of industry fanfare earlier this year. Apple Silicon support is a key deliverable of .NET 6."

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