Searching for english words ANDNOT from a specific greek root/stem...

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Posts 116
First Reformed Harrisburg | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Jul 3 2010 10:30 PM

I have NO IDEA if that subject helps... but.

I'm trying to search for instances where teach has been translated from words not like "didasko".  I tried searching "Morph" --> "teach NOTEQUALS translit:dida*" but the first result is Matthew 5:19"There for whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches (dida...).  So where did I go wrong? 

I can go to the Bible word study and search for teach and find the words translated 'teach" laleo, I'd have hoped my search would have found that. 

Did my basic approach even make since?  Thanks for any help anyone can give!

John Weathersby

Harrisburg, PA.

www.transcendchurch.org

Posts 2765
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 3 2010 11:48 PM

I will be watching with interest too.. for an expert to answer, I have never had "teach NOTEQUALS <lemma:διδάσκω>" working..

nearest I can start you with as alternative is by filering using the LouwNida numbers, if you right click on the word they will show on context menu

========================

LN for disasko is 33.224, and the LN for the definite article is 92.24

so your search would begin, and I hope its a help:

================

teach NOTEQUALS <LN 33.224> NOTEQUALS <LN 92.24>

 

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

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Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 4 2010 1:12 AM

Hi John

Does this help? I know it isn't using the lemma but it seems to give the result you are looking for.

with Strongs 1321 relating to the διδασκοω lemma

Graham

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 4 2010 4:03 AM

Two things i might be able to add:

1.) it works "backwards" i.e.

<Lemma = lbs/el/διδάσκω> NOTEQUALS teach

finds all of the uses of the lemma disaskw but not when it equals "teach" in English.

EDITED TO ADD: this also works:

<Lemma = lbs/el/διδάσκω> ANDNOT teach

 

Or you could just do a bible word study in English and see all of the underlying Greek for the English word "teach" right?

 

 

so "teach" has come from didaskw mainly with two other sources; the lemma logos and katecheo. (In the ESV anyway)

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 13423
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 4 2010 5:58 AM

You need to do a Bible search (not morph) for:

teach NOTEQUALS (<Lemma = lbs/el/διδάσκω>, <Lemma = lbs/el/διδαχή>, <Lemma = lbs/el/διδασκαλία>, <Lemma = lbs/el/διδακτικός>)


If you want a morph search the syntax is different:

teach ANDNOT (teach WITHIN 0 WORDS (lemma:διδάσκω, lemma:διδαχή, lemma:διδασκαλία, lemma:διδακτικός))

or you can use

teach ANDNOT (teach WITHIN 0 WORDS lemma:διδ*)

 

Hopefully the first search is relatively self-explanatory (say if it's not). Lemma searching in a Bible search requires knowledge of the morphology codes. If you're not sure of exactly the code, you can remind yourself by executing a lemma search from the right-click menu of a Bible, and building your search from there.

The morph search should be simpler (because you specify the morphology from a dropdown menu instead of through a strange code). However, moprh searches don't support NOTEQUALS or ANDEQUALS. You can use WITHIN 0 WORDS to replace ANDEQUALS, but replacing NOTEQUALS requires a bit more creativity. On the plus side, the lemma field supports wildcards, whereas the lemma datatype does not, so you you can use lemmas with wildcards in Morph searches, but not Bible searches.

There's more on the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Detailed_Search_Help

Posts 13423
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 4 2010 6:19 AM

John R. Weathersby:

I tried searching "Morph" --> "teach NOTEQUALS translit:dida*" 

Just to add that the translit field is not supported in Bibles, which is another reason this didn't work.

 

Posts 2765
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 4 2010 8:39 AM

Thx Mark & Richard

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 13423
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 4 2010 9:08 AM

Robert Pavich:

<Lemma = lbs/el/διδάσκω> NOTEQUALS teach

finds all of the uses of the lemma disaskw but not when it equals "teach" in English.

EDITED TO ADD: this also works:

<Lemma = lbs/el/διδάσκω> ANDNOT teach

These two are not the same and they return different results. NOTEQUALS works at word level, ANDNOT works at verse level.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 4 2010 10:39 AM

Oy vey...

I'm still messed up....

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 116
First Reformed Harrisburg | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 5 2010 9:02 AM

Grahm, Thank you for looking at this for me.  The problem is I am trying to find words that have been translated to ‘teach’ that did not come from a word rooted in didasko.  The first example, Mat  7:28 I could say may have confused the word translated to ‘teach’ by first looking to the definite article and getting ‘confused’ because of the nature of Boolean searching and lack of logic.  But, the second result Mat 16:12 teach is out of didache, which is why I was hoping that I could search for dida* (grasping at straws).  :D  Let me know if you have thoughts!  Nice approach, as your results were reduced from my 120 to 48. 

 

Robert, <Lemma = lbs/el/διδάσκω> ANDNOT teach brings up Mt 28:15, which is not teach but ‘directed’.  So the search is looking backwards for what I want.  I think.  It’s looking for items which were translated out of διδάσκω, I want anything that was translated from a word with *διδά” as a stem in it anywhere specifically EXCLUDED from my search for anything that has the English word “teach” translated from it.  Bible word study, does work, but it’s a little GUI for my liking, I want a quick and dirty search with the ability to isolate OUT words from my view, I.E. as discussed above anything with the διδά stem in it.

Mark, wow, I think you may have nailed it with teach ANDNOT (teach WITHIN 0 WORDS (lemma:διδάσκω, lemma:διδαχή, lemma:διδασκαλία, lemma:διδακτικός)).  With this search I was isolated to 6 results in 6 versus I think that’s reflective of the reality.  Can you walk me through the logic?  Or correct me where I’m wrong in the following: ‘you decided to search in the Morph for English words teach (I isolated mine to the NT and Top bibles) and in a specified Morphology (mine Logos Greek Morphology) translated out of the Greek words διδάσκω, διδαχή, διδασκαλία, and διδακτικός.  Is that correct?    One result of note is from 1 Timothy 1:3, it’s “certain persons not to teach” reference provides heterodidaskalein” from heteros and didaskalos.    I tried to modify your original search to isolate out anything with διδά using the following,  “teach ANDNOT (teach WITHIN 0 WORDS (lemma:*διδά*))” but my results were 43 in 41 versus and the second result included Mat 16:12 “were astonished at his teaching (didache).  I was thinking the wildcard should work as you mentioned the lemma filed allows for it and I’m searching for “lemma:*” but I could be off here.

Now, let me ask you (and the group) this question.  If my goal was to see if teach, translated from words other than those coming from or including a root/stem of διδάσ was used outside of the context of teaching or exegesis of scripture, is there a better approach than Boolean searching?  Is there some better approach using Logos Bible Software to search or answer this question for me.  Or, alternatively, a better approach in Boolean searching?

Thank you all for your input.  Amazing community we have here and I appreciate it greatly!

John Weathersby

Harrisburg, PA.

www.transcendchurch.org

Posts 13423
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 5 2010 10:02 AM

John R. Weathersby:
Can you walk me through the logic? 

Your logic is correct. The Bible search is potentially more accurate though, as ANDNOT... WITHIN 0 WORDS... only approximates NOTEQUALS. If accuracy is important, stick with NOTEQUALS and a Bible search.

teach NOTEQUALS (<Lemma = lbs/el/διδάσκω>, <Lemma = lbs/el/διδαχή>, <Lemma = lbs/el/διδασκαλία>, <Lemma = lbs/el/διδακτικός>)

You can add the lemma ἑτεροδιδασκαλέω (and καλοδιδάσκαλος) to this string too, if you prefer.

John R. Weathersby:
teach ANDNOT (teach WITHIN 0 WORDS (lemma:*διδά*))

This doesn't work because the accents matter. You'd have to use teach ANDNOT (teach WITHIN 0 WORDS (lemma:*διδ*)).

John R. Weathersby:
is there a better approach than Boolean searching?

You would probably have found it easier doing a Bible Word Study on the English word 'teach', and then looking at the translation wheel. You could see at a glance the other words that are used. However, whilst a BWS is easier, it's not better because you don't have full control over the results. The best search (IMO) would be the one below.

You also need to be aware that different translations differ greatly. The results you get from the NIV or LEB are very different to those from the ESV. You can use multiple version by choosing 'Top Bibles'.

Finally, you're relying on Logos' 'Match all word forms', which searches for teaches, teaching, etc., when you choose 'teach'. It's not foolproof, however, and doesn't include 'taught'. So the most accurate search would be in Top Bibles (or even all English-language Bibles) for

(teach, taught) NOTEQUALS (<Lemma = lbs/el/διδάσκω>, <Lemma = lbs/el/διδαχή>, <Lemma = lbs/el/διδασκαλία>, <Lemma = lbs/el/διδακτικός>, <Lemma = lbs/el/ἑτεροδιδασκαλέω>, <Lemma = lbs/el/καλοδιδάσκαλος>)

If you run this in Analysis view, you can see the results at a glance:


Posts 116
First Reformed Harrisburg | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 5 2010 12:12 PM

Mark Barnes:

John R. Weathersby:
teach ANDNOT (teach WITHIN 0 WORDS (lemma:*διδά*))

This doesn't work because the accents matter. You'd have to use teach ANDNOT (teach WITHIN 0 WORDS (lemma:*διδ*)). 

 

Eureka, I wondered if that was it, perfection!  I downloaded the Greek keyboard per option 1: http://wiki.logos.com/How_to_enter_text_in_Greek_and_Hebrew so if anyone else is having difficulty with ‘g:’ accent free Untransliteration typing.

Mark, thank you.  Also, I just realized you're the person behind the 'Sermon preparation series' also a great help to me!  Praise God for your input into these forums, I'm sure He uses what you've done to benefit many!  …and so I sit, with my scribbled notes to my right, chasing a rabbit hole about ‘teach,taught’ that I’m likely wrong about… but I have the one thing you left out of your video with me; my coffee cup to sip on and slop my notes up as I study they look like they've lived in a fox hole.  Thanks again.

I'm off to define an English Bible collection that I can search using these techniques from as opposed to limiting my searches to ESV.

 

John Weathersby

Harrisburg, PA.

www.transcendchurch.org

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 5 2010 12:38 PM

John R. Weathersby:
Mark, thank you.  Also, I just realized you're the person behind the 'Sermon preparation series' also a great help to me!  Praise God for your input into these forums, I'm sure He uses what you've done to benefit many! 

I agree, Mark is a real asset and blessing.

I don't know how he finds the time...really I don't...but I'm glad he does.

 

bob

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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