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Posts 36
J Peter Wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 20 2021 2:25 AM

Thanks for that comment. As a former WORDsearch user, I have taken my time to get into using LOGOS 9, so I can use it successfully.

I use this software mainly for my own Bible study and also putting together a piece/talk, now and again, for our Zoom Sunday meetings. We are one small group of our larger Anglican church, that currently cannot yet meet in person due to the UK's COVID-19 "lockdown" restrictions. I have used LOGOS mainly with the New International Version (NIV1984 & NIV2011), but I have over 25 Bible versions on my desktop, which I can click along, in order to compare verses in the different translations/paraphrases to make the words speak clearly to me. This is something I learnt from working in radio, both mainstream and Christian in the UK and Zambia, as well as speaking in churches of many brands/groupings/denominations across the West Midlands, Yorkshire & Zambia. I, often, found that it was The Message (MSG) or the Contemporary English Version (CEV) that made a passage clear to an audience. In addition, I now also use the Bible for Everyone (B4E) and The Passion Translation (TPT). I am of a generation that when I started to use a computer in the 90s, firstly a Sinclair ZX-81, I found that the computer at our radio station had only enough memory for the jingles and commercials, so all the music had to be played out from CD or vinyl in our programmes, and not on a computer playout system as radio stations use today. It, therefore, takes me a little longer to get used to new software programs such as LOGOS. Blessings.
Posts 79
John W Gillis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 20 2021 1:44 PM

Scott Hoagland:

Things I miss about WordSearch

  1. It was intuitive

Hi Scott, welcome to the Logos user community. As a (very) long-time user of WS myself (since 1993) and also a Logos user (~10 years), I’d like to offer a rumination on my own ideas concerning some of this. I’d begin by echoing the thoughts of others that intuitiveness in software seems often to be essentially a combination of simplicity and familiarity.

It is true that tools in WS were clearly labeled and easy-to-find, but that’s because there were so few of them that they could basically all have their own dedicated location on the toolbar. An exception to this was the Sermon Manager and Notestack tools bizarrely sharing the same toolbar location prior to WS12, where you had to use a drop-down to pick which one would be visible! They separated them in WS12, when they also added an icon for the new Lexicon Explorer tool. However, when you clicked that tool icon, all it did was open a window that explained why the window didn’t do anything (you can only instantiate the tool by double-clicking an original language word within a text), and then provided a link to remove the icon from the toolbar!

On the other hand, the WS Verse Explorer tool was so un-intuitively designed that it had to provide written instructions on the Welcome screen to first open a resource selection window before entering a verse selection, but it would then run the search when the resource selection window was closed instead of returning to the Welcome screen for entering a verse selection!! I find similarly awkward construction in the Bible Notes implementation, which forces the user to start from the annotation tool instead of providing an easy way to add an annotation to a passage via mouse selection or right-click or something. I liked the tool, but it was backwards to me. Intuitiveness is truly in the eye of the beholder!

For my money, the primary (not only) measure of an application’s intuitiveness is what it offers in the right-click context menu for what I might want to do with a selected object/word. There is simply no comparison between the functionality offered between the two apps’ context menus…

The Layout-related concerns you raise suggest just an incomplete familiarity yet with the options Logos provides for Layout management, but it also reminds me of one of my biggest beefs with what I considered the un-intuitiveness of WS: the lack of ability to perform a kind of Save-As for a Desktop layout. There was no way to both “save your place” and keep the starting point intact. BTW, do you understand the difference between WS Desktops and Templates well enough to explain it to me? I never figured it out. Layout management is vastly better implemented in Logos, in my opinion. Not to mention that changing layouts in Logos never produces fatal application errors, as has happened so many times over so many years in WS, and just happened to me again 5 minutes ago as I was playing with it again:

HWGA WS

FWIW - I considered the inability to display text across chapter divisions to be a major flaw in Wordsearch introduced at the time of the Epiphany Software merger (WS7, released in 2004), and never corrected.

Some of the other “missing” features of WS you mention I quite agree with. The WS verse picker for Book-Chapter-Verse indexed resources, and TOC/Index-style picker for Headword indexed resources, were fabulous, and hopefully will be adopted by Logos. I also liked the WS “current verse highlight” feature, and would love to see that implemented as an option in Logos, but not as a fixed feature (some Logos users have expressed a strong desire to not see this in Logos). I’ve also argued that the WS Parallel Bible tool was more usable than the alternative solutions in Logos, which include basic window linking, multi-resource display in a single window (works similarly to a WS linkset with a Driver window), and the Text Comparison tool – all of which are good in their own way. I’d love to see a simple Parallel Bible tool modeled on the WS tool implemented in future Logos editions.

All that being said, I think there’s an awful lot of subjectivity that goes into these kinds of comparisons. I’ve done extensive evaluations of various Wordsearch versions in the past, and my views are certainly colored by years of both productive use of the program and by long-simmering frustrations with its many shortcomings.

Logos is also far from perfect, but, compared to my Wordsearch experience, I’ve seen a far greater commitment to excellence in Logos since I started using it seriously about a decade ago. You’ve basically just gone from driving a jalopy to a luxury sedan, and you didn’t pay a nickel for the swap. I get that there are more buttons and knobs to figure out, but once you’ve figured this out, I’m confident you will consider yourself blessed that Lifeway gave up on their software, and Faithlife swooped in to salvage your ebook library investment, and provided you with overall superior tools for leveraging them.

Please continue to make constructive suggestions as to how Faithlife could improve the Logos toolset we’re all now so heavily invested it – we’re all in this together. These user forums are a good resource.

God bless you.

Posts 2
Donald DAVIES | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 2 2021 2:52 PM

Instant Verse Study!

Posts 2
Donald DAVIES | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 2 2021 2:58 PM

My sister in law, who was conducting Good News Clubs for Child Evangelism Fellowship would get stuck on a passage and ask for whatever I could send her for help.  The IVS was so helpful.  I selected 8-10 commentaries and sent what each had to say about the passage.  It was wonderful.

Posts 65
Dave M | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 3 2021 2:48 AM

Exactly. So then, what is the Logos 9 equivalent to the IVS? How does one do that?

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 3 2021 2:58 AM

Dave M:

Exactly. So then, what is the Logos 9 equivalent to the IVS? How does one do that?

Please describe the functionality of IVS so we can see whether you can do something similar in Logos

Posts 79
John W Gillis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 3 2021 5:49 AM

Graham Criddle:
Please describe the functionality of IVS

Instant Verse Study (IVS) was a report generator used to look up a verse or range in a user-selected set of Bible-indexed resources. It aggregated the relevant content from each resource, and put it all on the Windows clipboard for pasting into a word processor document. It did not generate any kind of search results window in WS, nor did it provide citations, pagination information, footnote indicators or contents, etc.

Although it didn't always work right, the idea was that it would locate the referenced verse/range within the index structure of the resource, and return the entire contents of the smallest identified indexed section. For example, if I looked up John 18:27, it would return the text of that verse for each Bible selected, whereas in commentaries it would return the content of the commentary for 18:27 if the resource had a specific section for that verse, else it would return the content for the enclosing pericope if the resource was indexed pericope by pericope.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 3 2021 7:25 AM

Thanks John - that's a great explanation

I think the nearest to this in Logos is a Milestone search - and then using the Print / Export option to export the results

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Posts 43
depdad | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 3 2021 7:55 AM

I've had both Logos and WORDsearch for years. Here's one thing that I noticed in WORDsearch that Logos did not do: If I was looking for some commentary explanation of an Old Testament Scripture, WORDsearch would include New Testament Commentaries that would mention that Old Testament Scripture. Logos did not include a New Testament Commentary in its Passage Guide, when you pulled up an Old Testament Scripture and vice versa, when I pulled up a New Testament Scripture, Logos would not include any Old Testament Commentaries.

I also found that WORDsearch would include any Commentary that mentioned a Scripture passage that I was researching, where Logos would be "Scripture-specific," when I used the Passage Guide.  I found some useful information in WORDsearch that I did not find using the Passage Guide in Logos. It would be great if Logos could expand the Passage Guide to have the Commentaries more than just "Scripture-specific."

Posts 21
James H. Schafer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 3 2021 10:14 AM

Thanks, Graham, for that reply. Somehow I never knew there was a search called "Milestone." I must have been asleep when that was shown.

Question: Is there a way to limit the resources Logos uses? I did that search and it had (I guess) all of my Bibles, including foreign language Bibles I never knew I had.

Posts 5506
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 3 2021 10:28 AM

depdad:

I've had both Logos and WORDsearch for years. Here's one thing that I noticed in WORDsearch that Logos did not do: If I was looking for some commentary explanation of an Old Testament Scripture, WORDsearch would include New Testament Commentaries that would mention that Old Testament Scripture. Logos did not include a New Testament Commentary in its Passage Guide, when you pulled up an Old Testament Scripture and vice versa, when I pulled up a New Testament Scripture, Logos would not include any Old Testament Commentaries.

I also found that WORDsearch would include any Commentary that mentioned a Scripture passage that I was researching, where Logos would be "Scripture-specific," when I used the Passage Guide.  I found some useful information in WORDsearch that I did not find using the Passage Guide in Logos.

Fortunately, the functionality you're looking for already exists. Simply add your Bible Commentaries (or the subset of them that you care about) to a Collection and add that Collection to the Passage Guide.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 3 2021 10:57 AM

James H. Schafer:
Question: Is there a way to limit the resources Logos uses? I did that search and it had (I guess) all of my Bibles, including foreign language Bibles I never knew I had.

Yes. One library filter is: Lang:English Type:Bible

Another library filter is MyTag. My library has a custom Top 2 Commentary Series => Creating a New Series of Commentaries and subset of Bibles for use in Bible searches for displaying results in Grid

94B4 Search Mytag Milestone

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 79
John W Gillis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 3 2021 12:07 PM

Graham Criddle:
I think the nearest to this in Logos is a Milestone search

Graham, I think that probably is the closest Logos can get with existing tools. It does point out how much more difficult it can be to do certain things in Logos though.

In WS, you click the tool icon (or right-click a Bible verse), and the tool opens up with the active verse loaded. You check or uncheck and boxes next to listed resources if you want to change the scope set determined at last usage, then click the button, and the info you want is on the clipboard in a few milliseconds, ready to paste. You could show somebody how to do it in 10 or 15 seconds.

For someone to try to replicate that in Logos, they’d have to somehow know to type a curly brace, followed by the word “Milestone”, followed by an angle brace, then type their reference, then be sure to close the angle brace and the curly brace. That’s just to enter the search term. I’m going to suggest that no more than 10% of Logos users are going to do that, or even know that they could.

In WS, you could load a Collection if desired into the search dialog box for defining resource scope, and either run as-is, or modify by checking/unchecking boxes from among 3 lists (Bibles, Notebooks, and “Commentaries”, which was really all B-C-V indexed resources besides Bibles and Notebooks). Logos, in its aversion to dialog boxes, presents only the usual (narrow!) scope drop-down which allows you to pick one object of pre-defined scope, so if you have a Collection created that fits the bill you can select it, but otherwise you have to stop and go create a new Collection first.

The Milestone search is actually pretty handy. If it were available to select as a Search Type on the Search menu bar, users could use that subsection to enter such terms without needing to know the search programming grammar. I’d think it would be more intuitive for users if it were labeled Article Search rather than Milestone Search, but that’s hair-splitting. (I doubt many users beyond the minority who use PBB have any idea what a Milestone is; everyone knows what an Article is. But maybe Entry is better. Or Section. ?? Whatever.)

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 3 2021 1:19 PM

John W Gillis:
It does point out how much more difficult it can be to do certain things in Logos though.

From the discussions I have seen here (I have never used Wordsearch) that does seem to be the case.

John W Gillis:
I’m going to suggest that no more than 10% of Logos users are going to do that, or even know that they could.

A long standing request has been for Logos search to be simplified - with some form of query builder, for example. But with the breadth of functionality on Logos I understand how doing that could be a real challenge. But, yes, I wouldn't expect everyone to know how to do this.

John W Gillis:
In WS, you could load a Collection if desired into the search dialog box for defining resource scope, and either run as-is, or modify by checking/unchecking boxes from among 3 lists (Bibles, Notebooks, and “Commentaries”, which was really all B-C-V indexed resources besides Bibles and Notebooks). Logos, in its aversion to dialog boxes, presents only the usual (narrow!) scope drop-down which allows you to pick one object of pre-defined scope, so if you have a Collection created that fits the bill you can select it, but otherwise you have to stop and go create a new Collection first.

In searches, you can use "Quick Collections" and define many of these options on the go as per the example below:

Image



John W Gillis:
The Milestone search is actually pretty handy. If it were available to select as a Search Type on the Search menu bar, users could use that subsection to enter such terms without needing to know the search programming grammar.

Search Templates (available by clicking the icon at the top-left of the search panel) get close:

Image

But I think it would be a real enhancement if it provided the option to just do a milestone search

John W Gillis:
(I doubt many users beyond the minority who use PBB have any idea what a Milestone is; everyone knows what an Article is. But maybe Entry is better. Or Section. ?? Whatever.)

Again I think you are right that not many would know what a milestone is - but it is at least documented in the Logos help file:

Milestones

A milestone marks a specific location in a Logos resource. It can be thought of as a waypoint or point of interest within the text of a resource.

For example, the beginning of every verse in a Bible will be marked as a location using a milestone that defines the verse. Milestones are called Indexes in Resource Information, because they tend to function as organizational markers within resources. 

A single resource may have many milestones indexes. For example, many print editions of Josephus have one or both of two competing reference schemes (Whiston and Loeb, named for their creators) and Logos editions of the works of Josephus generally have milestone indexes for both schemes.

 Logos Help (Bellingham, WA: Faithlife, 2018).

Posts 43
depdad | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 3 2021 4:48 PM

I added the commentaries, but they don't appear on the list as an available commentary like WORDsearch does. (e.g. Old Testament passage does not access New Testament Commentaries).

Posts 79
John W Gillis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 3 2021 9:08 PM

depdad:
(e.g. Old Testament passage does not access New Testament Commentaries).

This works fine in the Passage Guide if you do what SineNomine suggested: add a Collections section to your Passage Guide (if not there already), and then in the Settings for that section, select a Collection containing the commentaries you want to query. If you don't specify a Collection, it will search everything, which will probably give you more that you want.

BTW - You are unlikely to find passages for OT passages in NT commentaries listed in the Commentaries section of the Passage Guide - that section does not appear to be looking for xrefs mentioning the target verse. Use a Collections section instead.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 3 2021 11:54 PM

John W Gillis:
that section does not appear to be looking for xrefs mentioning the target verse.

The Commentary section does not contain that information. It is carried in the important passages section -- no need for adding a collections section.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 79
John W Gillis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 4 2021 4:50 AM

MJ. Smith:
It is carried in the important passages section -- no need for adding a collections section

The Important Passages section is a nifty xref generator, and may very well provide the poster with some of the cross-Testament relationship information he's looking for, but I read the request as one for using the Passage Guide to query NT commentaries for content dealing with an OT passage. To do that in the PG, I believe having a collection of commentaries loaded into a Collections section of the PG is the way to go.

Posts 43
depdad | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 5 2021 11:35 AM

Thank you, sir for your help. I put in the MacArthur NT Commentary, and it worked. Can you tell me how to put multiple commentaries into a personal collection?

Posts 79
John W Gillis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 5 2021 6:34 PM

depdad:
Can you tell me how to put multiple commentaries into a personal collection?

custom Collections are created/populated in the Collections tool window, which can be found under the Tools menu (scroll way down to the Library section in the list), or you can type Collections into the Search bar and "Show Collections" will appear as a choice.

The tool window is a bit of an odd duck, and it can be tedious to add items one-by-one, but you can use a filtering option as a shortcut.

Click New to create a new Collection, then give it a name. You can drag individual entries into the smallish "+ Plus these resources:" area from a Library window. You can also get things to show up in the "Resulting Collection" section by entering a filter term in the  little box where I scrawled an F in the pic below. i.e. if you type MacArthur in that field, every book that matches that in title or author etc will show up in the bottom, and you can either drag them up to the + Plus section, or just leave the filter word in place so the results will keep showing up. You can enter multiple lookup terms and it will find either, as long as you separate them with commas. i.e. if you type "MacArthur, NAC, WBC" into the filter field, you'll get all three of those commentary sets to show up if you have them. You'll need to experiment a bit.

What I've done to create a Collection of most-used commentaries is to add a tag to each of my favorite volumes in the library, and filter on my tag. I use the word Shelf for my tag, as in the books I want on the shelf near-by. I then created a Collection I called Commentary Shelf, and populate it dynamically by putting the expression "mytag:Shelf" in the filter field, and just leave it like that. It's an extra step to add the custom tag to each good commentary first, but it's very handy for eliminating results from less interesting volumes and focusing on the ones I like best.

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