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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 3 2022 4:18 PM

Important passages is the section that comes closest to the information he wants. While I can see the data being useful for very small libraries, I'm having trouble seeing it as useful for larger libraries - for example Mark 1:1-8 gives me 491 to / 306 from references or 2 Tim 3:16 gives me 258 to/227 from passages ... I get data overload very quickly.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 96
John W Gillis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 3 2022 6:46 PM

MJ. Smith:
Important passages is the section that comes closest to the information he wants

I'm not so sure about that. Important Passages is an auto-curated filter of typically high-value references - very cool widget, but different than the WS tool in question. I know the tool he's talking about: the Cross Reference Explorer - a tool introduced in WS8 (2007), which literally ran a library search for the (tagged) active verse reference, and presented a library tree of filtered resources (i.e. all resources with hits from among those included in the selected Collections scope) providing hotlinks to results, which when selected would be previewed in an adjacent pane. pic below.

I think the Logos tool that comes closest to that is the Cited By tool. In fact, I think it could be configured to work almost identically, except for the large format preview pane in WS (the Logos previews are smaller but can be always visible, and easier to use in my opinion). It would admittedly take some library management work to create Collections or taggings adequate to mimic the WS library tree breakdown, but it would be both doable and customizable in Logos.

To test the theory, I picked a verse (Neh 10:28) I figured would return a relatively small number of hits (hence easy to count), and ran lookups against my entire WS library using XRef Explorer, and against all the resources I have manually applied a tag of "WS" to in my Logos library. This is not quite apples-to-apples since the Logos lookup would not have included the non-trivial number of resources I'd already duplicated in my Logos library prior to the Wordsearch merger, but it would be close enough for government work. I could spot check specific resources to see if the details matched.

Findings: The Cited By tool found 161 hits in the "WS"-tagged resources (according to the results screen), and the XRef Explorer returned 206 hits from my complete WS library (based on my manual counting of hits in the results tree - no summary data or export option available). That was consistent with what I'd expect based on the "extra" resources in the original WS library grouping. I then ran spot checks on several resources and found the identified hits were the same in each - which is no surprise, as the tools are doing the same thing.

I then changed the verse number and re-ran both xref search tools: the Logos results came back basically instantly; the Wordsearch results came back in about two seconds or so, after the green search bar ran across the bottom of the app window. 

Verdict: The Logos Cited By tool is a perfectly adequate replacement for the Wordsearch XRef Explorer. The Wordsearch tool is a little easier to understand out of the box, but the Logos tool performs the exact same lookup, is faster at searching, more customizable, provides vastly faster & easier views of results previews if desired (but the short previews can also be turned off if desired by setting "Compact View" for the pane), the results can be ordered within groups by either alpha (like WS) or by ranking (favorites first), and the results can be printed or exported to a document, unlike WS. 

Logos clearly already has the superior tool in this category. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 3 2022 7:15 PM

Thanks for actually doing the comparison. My comments were based solely on the documentation:


Data for this dataset is aggregated using a process similar to that of Lemma in Passage and also the Important Words dataset. However, instead of retrieving information about Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic words, the process retrieves information about references cited in the context of discussion about a passage.

For example, if a commentary provides commentary on John 1:1, it likely references other passages in the Bible in its commentary discussion. It may reference Genesis 1:1, or John 1:17, or Mark 1:1. This dataset is based on an analysis that tracks which references are cited in commentary discussions on particular passages. It aggregates all of this data across the entire set of commentaries available to Logos Bible Software.

In addition to commentaries, notes from Study Bibles were evaluated. We also evaluated existing cross reference resources (like the original Treasury of Scripture Knowledge. Cross references within Bibles were evaluated too.

In addition to those, we also did an analysis of several Hebrew and Greek lexicons, aggregating information about which lexicons cited which references in word level articles. This involved an alignment of lexica on the headword/term level to aggregate common references used when discussing the headword (or lemma).

From this point, other datasets that associate references are evaluated to determine potential reasons for the reference. Perhaps the associated references both have something to do with the cultural concept of Creation. Or perhaps they are synoptic parallels. Or maybe they both involve theophanies. Or maybe they are both frequently cited in lexicon articles for the same original language word that happens to occur in the verse.

All of this data was then aggregated, and the triple (milestone reference, cross reference, and reason) was evaluated and scored. The dataset provides access to the cross references and the reasons, and allows them to be listed and sorted by importance score.

Rick Brannan, Important Passages: Dataset Documentation (Bellingham, WA: Faithlife, 2018).

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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William E. Martin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 4 2022 9:30 AM

The feature I miss most is ease of use, Wordsearch was very user friendly. Logos 9 I have had it for over a year and I am still having issue trying to find just basic information. There are a lot of days I just pull out my old windows computer and Wordsearch welcomes me back home with ease of use. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 4 2022 11:20 AM

William E. Martin:
I have had it for over a year and I am still having issue trying to find just basic information.

Sounds to me like you haven't been asking enough questions on the forums. Most basic information is easily found IF you know how. Can you give an example?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 125
Gary Pajkos | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 4 2022 6:56 PM

One of the features I liked about Wordsearch was the Notes Tool.  It is simple to use and easy to navigate.  All I had to do was click on the Note icon and a floating window opened automatically linked to the Bible verse I was on.  I could create all the same text and links and pictures on the screen and it even had an UNDO icon in case I accidentally erased something. Easy to navigate to other notes without the need of a filter and the notes were arranged by Bible reference automatically.

That said, believe me I love the sophistication of Logos and it has way more features than Wordsearch.  However, Logos really over-engineered the Notes Tool.  Just give me a way to create notes on a Bible verse and more the other features (highlighting, etc) to my Documents.  

Please don't rip me up about how I can do this or that in Logos.  You asked what I like about Wordsearch and I answered.

Posts 125
Gary Pajkos | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 4 2022 7:06 PM

I just thought of one more feature I liked about Wordearch, the ability to create my personal documents (i.e. PBBs) directly in the program and to be able to edit the document directly in Wordsearch and then re-save. No looking for the file in the directory where I placed it and editing in Word and re-building. I could add text, hyperlinks, and pictures with no issues, just copy/paste, and save. 

 Just saying, I liked that a lot.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 4 2022 8:03 PM

Gary Pajkos:
and more the other features (highlighting, etc) to my Documents.  

You have no idea how many times I had to read this to understand what you meant.  The power of a simple typo.

PS. I disagree - to me highlights are simply a visual note rather than a verbal note.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1262
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2022 3:43 AM

Gary Pajkos:

I just thought of one more feature I liked about Wordearch, the ability to create my personal documents (i.e. PBBs) directly in the program and to be able to edit the document directly in Wordsearch and then re-save. No looking for the file in the directory where I placed it and editing in Word and re-building. I could add text, hyperlinks, and pictures with no issues, just copy/paste, and save. 

 Just saying, I liked that a lot.

Believe me, I have felt your pain. WS had some features that I still catch myself trying to do in Logos (InstaVerse)... and there are times I just fire up WS and do some of the things... I find of especial complicated is the Search in Logos... I understand it a little now... but I find it hard to remember to use...

Another "real" issue for me is ZipScript.  So far it still works... but I'm afearing Logos is going to drop it and eventually it won't work for whatever reason....  then I will cry... I use it all the time..... Crying

But I'm like when the Hebrews came out of Egypt and saw Pharaoh's army coming after them...they forgot what God had done for them and wanted to go back... maybe progress is not easy....

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Barney Fife is my hero!

Posts 125
Gary Pajkos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2022 8:38 AM

Sorry for my mistake.  I appreciate your perspective.  My only point was to be able to see my Bible reference notes quickly, easily, in reference order without having to filter each time I click on a note.  

It's boils down to my personal preference.  That saying, I am fine using the Logos notes tool and I especially love that I can share my notes with my sons via the group we created in My Faithlife.  Now that is worth it all !!!!

Posts 1262
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 10 2022 6:34 PM

Gary Pajkos:

Sorry for my mistake.  I appreciate your perspective.  My only point was to be able to see my Bible reference notes quickly, easily, in reference order without having to filter each time I click on a note.  

It's boils down to my personal preference.  That saying, I am fine using the Logos notes tool and I especially love that I can share my notes with my sons via the group we created in My Faithlife.  Now that is worth it all !!!!

If your not already....  I will suggest you make use of the "tag" option in a note in Logos.  You can put in that "tag" what you think the note is about.... and then the search feature in Notes to find the note you are looking for.  It's not perfect.... but it does work to a degree.

The other thing... which you may have figured out....is when you load up Notes... the "sidebar" has 2 options - "Filters" or "Notebooks" --- choose the "Filters" option and you can scroll down the list of "tags" to find what you are looking for.

I know, I know.... WordSearch Notes was pretty slick in they way they let you choose your notes. But Logos does work after a fashion.

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Barney Fife is my hero!

Posts 3
Susonne | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 6:52 AM

Agree, the carousal and search feature in WordSeach was so much easier and I liked the Library feature in WS, it was easier to find my books. It has been two years, are they working on it?

Posts 3
Susonne | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 6:52 AM

Agree, the carousal and search feature in WordSeach was so much easier and I liked the Library feature in WS, it was easier to find my books. It has been two years, are they working on it?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 10:05 AM

Perhaps, we could offer tips that would help. How did WS carousal differ from parallel resources i.e. what specific aspect of the feature do you need added?

Susonne:
It has been two years, are they working on it?

Working on what? Again, what specific aspect of the feature do you need to find your books more easily?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 101
John Simpson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 12:37 PM

Carousel had aspects that were helpful:

1) A Bible in another window can be designated as a driver. The driver reference will not change if the linked books in my commentary window are scrolled or changed to another reference. The driver reference remains as an anchor point.

2) If I cycle to the next book in my commentary window, the commentary will use the reference from the driver Bible, not the reference from the last commentary.

3) If a commentary has no nearby links to the reference, the carousel will skip that commentary.

4) A home button let me instantly return to the first commentary in my carousel for the commentary window.

Example: I have Psalm 1:1 open in my Driver Bible. My commentary window opens to Psalm 1:1. If I scroll the commentary to Psalm 1:4, the Bible window stays at Psalm 1:1. If I then cycle the commentary window to the next commentary, the next commentary will open at Psalm 1:1.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 14 2022 12:41 PM

Thanks for the description - designating a driver as been a long term request from Logos users. So far the improvements in this area are edging us closer but not quite there.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 101
John Simpson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 26 2022 12:42 PM

John Simpson:
3) If a commentary has no nearby links to the reference, the carousel will skip that commentary.

Parallel resource sets could work this way if they used the same logic as the passage guide in displaying commentaries.

Posts 1262
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 26 2022 1:53 PM

John Simpson:

Carousel had aspects that were helpful:

1) A Bible in another window can be designated as a driver. The driver reference will not change if the linked books in my commentary window are scrolled or changed to another reference. The driver reference remains as an anchor point.

2) If I cycle to the next book in my commentary window, the commentary will use the reference from the driver Bible, not the reference from the last commentary.

3) If a commentary has no nearby links to the reference, the carousel will skip that commentary.

4) A home button let me instantly return to the first commentary in my carousel for the commentary window.

Example: I have Psalm 1:1 open in my Driver Bible. My commentary window opens to Psalm 1:1. If I scroll the commentary to Psalm 1:4, the Bible window stays at Psalm 1:1If I then cycle the commentary window to the next commentary, the next commentary will open at Psalm 1:1.

I agree. There are some WordSearch features that would enhance Logos... this is one of them.

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Barney Fife is my hero!

Posts 396
Matt Hamrick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 26 2022 2:28 PM

Bill McVicker:

Hi,

1) Zipscript, as others have said it allows you to paste Bible verses even if Logos is not running as well as it doesn't matter what program your pasting into.  

2) In WS you can right-click on a Strong's number in a Bible passage and search where else that word was used in the Bible.  This is very handy and quick when looking for additional comparisons of how a word.is translated and used.

3) I love the Strong's talking dictionary (which I see is in process)

I quit using the strongs number 30 years ago. In Logos you can use the Lemma which is the dictionary form of any biblical word and consult your lexicons on that particular word. This is a much more efficient system. Currently, I have the Strongs number turned off in my interlinear bibles. Bible Word Study guide will be your friend if you use it and prioritize your go to lexicons for Greek and Hebrew.

Posts 2138
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 26 2022 5:42 PM

Matt Hamrick:

Bill McVicker:

Hi,

1) Zipscript, as others have said it allows you to paste Bible verses even if Logos is not running as well as it doesn't matter what program your pasting into.  

2) In WS you can right-click on a Strong's number in a Bible passage and search where else that word was used in the Bible.  This is very handy and quick when looking for additional comparisons of how a word.is translated and used.

3) I love the Strong's talking dictionary (which I see is in process)

I quit using the strongs number 30 years ago. In Logos you can use the Lemma which is the dictionary form of any biblical word and consult your lexicons on that particular word. This is a much more efficient system. Currently, I have the Strongs number turned off in my interlinear bibles. Bible Word Study guide will be your friend if you use it and prioritize your go to lexicons for Greek and Hebrew.

I believe you can also right click on a word, select the lemma, and run a search for the lemma. It works similar to how Strong’s Number searching worked in Wordsearch, but more precise.

I believe Bible Word Study can also show Hebrew and Greek Pronunciations if you have those resources purchased. They work as well as Talking Strong’s.

Nathan Parker

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