Enough with the WordSearch brouhaha...I want what I paid for.

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Posts 850
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 8:50 AM

SineNomine:

David Wanat:

SineNomine:

I am unaware of any resources in my library that should have hyperlinks to other resources but don't. It is my expectation that resources produced prior to whatever I buy will be linked to, and that all else in terms of hyperlinks is icing on the cake.

I think the Catechism of the Catholic Church has several references to other resources that Logos has, but are not linked.

That would not surprise me. But were they in the system when the CCC was produced? If not... to me, they're icing. Mind you, I do like icing.

Me too. I guess what I hope for (perhaps unrealistically, as I have no idea how much work is involved) is that they would add links as their library expands.

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Posts 4109
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 9:54 AM

David Wanat:

SineNomine:

I am unaware of any resources in my library that should have hyperlinks to other resources but don't. It is my expectation that resources produced prior to whatever I buy will be linked to, and that all else in terms of hyperlinks is icing on the cake.

I think the Catechism of the Catholic Church has several references to other resources that Logos has, but are not linked.



Near as I can tell that particular title is 8 years old. Tagging has gotten a lot more extensive since then. 2 year cycles, that would have been at least logos 4 right? maybe older... some titles go years without comments. 

L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, L9

Posts 4109
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 9:57 AM

David Wanat:

SineNomine:

David Wanat:

SineNomine:

I am unaware of any resources in my library that should have hyperlinks to other resources but don't. It is my expectation that resources produced prior to whatever I buy will be linked to, and that all else in terms of hyperlinks is icing on the cake.

I think the Catechism of the Catholic Church has several references to other resources that Logos has, but are not linked.

That would not surprise me. But were they in the system when the CCC was produced? If not... to me, they're icing. Mind you, I do like icing.

Me too. I guess what I hope for (perhaps unrealistically, as I have no idea how much work is involved) is that they would add links as their library expands.

They do :). 

But its a never ending task for Faithlife. Logos gets more tagging types with each new version. 

Something like 40,000 titles in logos catalog. 

What is being asked for would require 1. no new development for the software and 2. no new titles. Thats the ONLY way I can think of that ALL of the books would be able to be brought up to current. Anything less and you are trying to hit a moving target from a moving platform. at best you can achieve this on occassion, but then a new book, or feature for the software starts you back at zero. 




L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, L9

Posts 1300
LogosEmployee
Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 9:59 AM

Hi David

I am sorry for your frustrations. We are always in the processing old resources to support additional linking to resources that weren't possible to make at the time or supporting new features such as sermon or prayer labels.

If we got something wrong during the initial production we try to fix it as soon as we're made aware of it.

In your additional post you referenced an issue with JETS. I believe you were using this as an illustration for a larger point that I don't want to distract from too much. However, I looked into it a bit further and I think you were referring to issues that are part of the Galaxie Theological Journal bundle. On the product page we explicitly state on that certain tagging isn't supported. I wish this wasn't so but it's was a unique and purposeful decision to produce them in that matter.

Posts 4109
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 10:08 AM

Kyle G. Anderson:

Hi David

I am sorry for your frustrations. We are always in the processing old resources to support additional linking to resources that weren't possible to make at the time or supporting new features such as sermon or prayer labels.

If we got something wrong during the initial production we try to fix it as soon as we're made aware of it.

In your additional post you referenced an issue with JETS. I believe you were using this as an illustration for a larger point that I don't want to distract from too much. However, I looked into it a bit further and I think you were referring to issues that are part of the Galaxie Theological Journal bundle. On the product page we explicitly state on that certain tagging isn't supported. I wish this wasn't so but it's was a unique and purposeful decision to produce them in that matter.



Unless I'm remembering wrong, Galaxie is the only remaining third party that makes/produces logos resources. That is they are responsible at galaxie for the finished product, and logos makes it live when the files are recieved. 

There was some discussion about this a few years back when Logos was going to bring all the journals in house. Which has expanded their journal offerings in a wonderful way; but wasn't fully successfull regarding the galaxie journals IIRC. 

Correct me if I"m wrong. 

L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, L9

Posts 250
MWW | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 11:21 AM

Thomas Myers:
David is there anything else we can be praying for you?

That's pretty much sums up what I was thinking!

I am astounded pretty much every day that we have greater than the Library of Alexandria at our fingertips. Never has Bible Study been so thorough and so quick and easy. I try to keep in perspective that yes we have a few glitches and frustrations with Logos... but I also have frustrations with Microsoft, Google, Apple and a host of smaller software operations - which certainly is the class that Faithlife-Logos fits into. I am happy that Logos has absorbed WordSearch... talk about frustrations... you should have tried using their latest Mac version!  

When our personal software gets upgraded to the glorified version, "then we shall know even as we are known". But until then, if today the marshmallows are missing from our Lucky Charms... tomorrow will bring another bowl!

Posts 11231
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 11:33 AM

abondservant:
But its a never ending task for Faithlife. Logos gets more tagging types with each new version. 

And they're processing credit card charges in return for marketing claims, year after year. 

But I agree, it's not possible. It's like a pyramid scheme (the equation itself, not the trickery).

Folks have recommended crowd-updating. Personally (as a customer), I'd be happy with selected-volunteers-only, and color code the reference links (where not yet checked, etc).

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 1943
Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 1:56 PM

While I hope I wouldn't communicate with the vitriol that David is communicating, I agree with him 100% that FL doesn't deliver what it advertises. And a link data model which automatically accounted for new arrivals would have taken care of this years ago.

An interesting exercise would be determining what percent of references in Logos books to other books within the Logos universe are actually links. I suspect it's pretty low.

-Donnie

Posts 2009
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 1:58 PM

I'm really sorry it's taken so long to solve this problem. We've been actively working for the last two years to fully implement our bibliographic work tagging across the library. We have a database of almost 3 million works (available online at https://biblioindex.com/) that provides the plumbing for making connections between various works and resources.

We kicked this effort off many years ago in place of making direct links from one resource to another, but there were some breakdowns in various systems and processes that led to a lot of duplicate biblio records, resulting in many links not making it to their correct destination.

I asked the team to make getting this cleaned up a top priority over the last couple of years, and we've made really good progress on it. The end result will be a much better interlinking system (e.g., by allowing us to link to works before we even have them in the system, meaning that once we add them we won't need to recycle existing works to add links to the new resource).

It could also open up all sorts of opportunities for some pretty cool applications down the road:

  1. Building a master citation graph that maps the relationships between resources, works, their authors, etc.
  2. Building a system for browsing, searching, and managing works (e.g., an essay in a festschrift) as distinct from resources (i.e., the resource that contains it).
  3. Improving the ranking of resources and works by leveraging citation strength (among other factors) throughout the application (e.g., improved default resource priorities, improved search result ranking, improved ranking in various guide sections).
  4. Showing a list of the top incoming and outgoing linked resources and works both in Logos and on Logos.com.
  5. Providing us with another really important data point for prioritizing which works we need to acquire, add additional tagging and functionality to, etc.

It's been a huge undertaking, and it's long overdue. I'm really sorry it's taken so long to solve some of these systemic issues keeping many hyperlinks from properly resolving. But we're making really good progress and are committed to getting to the finish line on this. And I'm hopeful we'll be able to build some really cool functionality on top of this data once we're finished with the merging work and have the remaining systems and processes issues resolved.

If there are particular resources that need attention, please report them. I'll make sure the team prioritizes getting them fully functional as soon as possible. I'm sorry this has taken so much longer than we had hoped. But I'm optimistic that we're on the right path and the future is even brighter than we original anticipated (especially when you couple this with our dramatically expanded author database of over 100,000 authors and our plans for expanded metadata there). We'll keep pressing forward to make sure we get there as quickly as possible.

Posts 2195
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 2:27 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
I'm really sorry it's taken so long to solve this problem. We've been actively working for the last two years to fully implement our bibliographic work tagging across the library.

Thanks you Phil for acknowledging the issue and explaining what you are doing to address it!

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 1943
Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 3:12 PM

Yes

Posts 4971
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 4:31 PM

Kyle G. Anderson:
In your additional post you referenced an issue with JETS. I believe you were using this as an illustration for a larger point that I don't want to distract from too much. However, I looked into it a bit further and I think you were referring to issues that are part of the Galaxie Theological Journal bundle. On the product page we explicitly state on that certain tagging isn't supported. I wish this wasn't so but it's was a unique and purposeful decision to produce them in that matter.

With regard to Galaxie, I looked at their website and they mention they are available on Accordance and Wordsearch (with Logos getting a slight mention). With the acquisition of WS, does that give FL more leverage and pull with regard to getting Galaxie to fall in line on tagging and linking? I hope so. Come to think of it, maybe FL should just buy Galaxie next? That would solve that problem...and then, FL could make the big move and buy Brill!!! Finally, FL would be able to offer Vetus TestamentumIdea

I did notice that Accordance is making noise about the "recent bible software shake-up" and how they plan to stick around, while also making a pitch for themselves. Have to admit, I didn't understand the logic of their "a competitor bought a competitor, so buy our software" pitch. 

Posts 4971
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 5:03 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
It's been a huge undertaking, and it's long overdue. I'm really sorry it's taken so long to solve some of these systemic issues keeping many hyperlinks from properly resolving. But we're making really good progress and are committed to getting to the finish line on this. And I'm hopeful we'll be able to build some really cool functionality on top of this data once we're finished with the merging work and have the remaining systems and processes issues resolved.

I'm glad to hear that FL is working the problem, but it's usable results that matter, as always. Not attempting to draw an equivalence of importance, but I'm sort of in the mindset of civil rights protesters who keep getting told, "shush, you're pushing too hard and making too much noise...things just take time". [Ironically, that sentiment comes from other users moreso than from FL. Seems like there's always somebody willing to rock the Samuel Jackson vibe a la Django Unchained.] Tbh, I fully understand the frustration of those who are tired of hearing "one day". Also, I just don't think we have much time to play with. Things that are going to get done need to be done soon...and much needs to get done.

Donnie Hale:
While I hope I wouldn't communicate with the vitriol that David is communicating

Well, paint me somewhere in the continuum between Malcolm X and Martin Luther King. I don't like being vitriolic and feeling like things have come to a point where it's needed, but squeaky wheel and all that. A little rattling of the barricades keeps people on their toes and cooks off complacency. Still, I prefer a frosty brew to a Molotov cocktail any day! Beer

Posts 7546
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 6:47 PM

Thomas Myers:

David is there anything else we can be praying for you?

I’ll pray for him too 👍😁👌

DAL

Ps.  Thank you, FL for everything you’re doing! I know it’s a lot of work!

Posts 4971
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 25 2020 3:08 AM

MJ. Smith:
Personally I am more concerned with Logos providing incorrect information than I am about the extra effort required by missing coding. I suspect I am in the minority on that and that you are in the majority.

Actually, that does bother me to some degree, but I pretty much avoid that concern by making very little use of Logos data sets. I'm sure that others get tons of benefit from them, but I've noticed on numerous occasions that people will bring a particular search failure to the forum, and time and again, whether its a search string or a data set, items one would fully expect to be included in a given "set" or search don't get lit up. I know the effort and energy put into the process of mining for the desired data is noble, but the thing I also notice is that the only way to know if the search or data set is complete is if you go in and rake through the Scriptural material by hand (so to speak). Sets and strings can always be refined, but at some point those who take the outputs and run are blindly assuming the work others have done is adequate and accurate. I'm sure that on some occasions it is, and that's great for both producer and consumer, but I personally can't buy into that process--I feel like I'm shirking my responsibility. On the other hand, I can see plenty of value of using a given search string or data set to check my own research, testing to see if my efforts missed anything. I do feel like some folks want Logos to keep them from having to break a mental sweat.

If you are thinking more along the lines of a particular doctrinal or theological perspective knowingly or unknowingly shading, shaping, or shaving an accurate Scriptural understanding, I personally just think that kind of thing is unavoidable. The only Logos resources I expect to be accurate are Bibles and to some extent lexicons and the like, and even there I don't expect anything like perfection.

Links, on the other hand, are either there and working or they aren't...the guesswork is minimal. In that respect, resolutions should be easier to attain.

Posts 4142
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 25 2020 1:43 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

It could also open up all sorts of opportunities for some pretty cool applications down the road:

  1. Building a master citation graph that maps the relationships between resources, works, their authors, etc.
  2. Building a system for browsing, searching, and managing works (e.g., an essay in a festschrift) as distinct from resources (i.e., the resource that contains it).
  3. Improving the ranking of resources and works by leveraging citation strength (among other factors) throughout the application (e.g., improved default resource priorities, improved search result ranking, improved ranking in various guide sections).
  4. Showing a list of the top incoming and outgoing linked resources and works both in Logos and on Logos.com.

Verbum 10 wishlist items for me.

Posts 4971
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 25 2020 10:58 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

It could also open up all sorts of opportunities for some pretty cool applications down the road:

  1. Building a master citation graph that maps the relationships between resources, works, their authors, etc.
  2. Building a system for browsing, searching, and managing works (e.g., an essay in a festschrift) as distinct from resources (i.e., the resource that contains it).
  3. Improving the ranking of resources and works by leveraging citation strength (among other factors) throughout the application (e.g., improved default resource priorities, improved search result ranking, improved ranking in various guide sections).
  4. Showing a list of the top incoming and outgoing linked resources and works both in Logos and on Logos.com.
  5. Providing us with another really important data point for prioritizing which works we need to acquire, add additional tagging and functionality to, etc.

I think all of these are good and hopeful objectives, although to some extent I would have expected most of these things were possibilities already based just on in-place database info. A few weeks ago, I re-re-requested that FL prioritize the acquisition of the most cited resources within the entire Logos stable, a move which I think would provide the most bang-for-the-buck hyperlink strengthening of users' libraries. Most of the objectives listed above seem to advance that cause, which when completed should enhance everyone's experience.

I have just one more request on this front. The one resource I am most desirous of seeing in Logos is Vetus Testamentum (the journal, the supplements, the congress volumes, the whole works). VT alone accounts for multiple thousands of citations. I believe someone (probably Phil) deflated my hopes by saying that objective was not likely to be achieved any time soon. I have one piece of Biblical advice for consideration and implementation...Lk. 18:1-8. In other words, bug the snot out of them until they relent. Do an Andy Dufrense and contact them until they're seeing triple. Seriously, wear...them...down.

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