WORDsearch books that will not be migrated to Logos
Logos informed me that WORDsearch Libraries and books that were in our WORDsearch libraries which were purchased by Authorized Distributors of WORDsearch CDs which were installed in Our WS12 from the CDs (not the downloadable books) would not be migrated into Logos because their CDs purchase History was not recorded in the WORDsearch Online Store, even though they are recorded on the WORDsearch website, and they are filtering only books on record in that Store into their Library, while excluding all other WORDsearch book purchases.
Previously they migrated my entire WS Library in the Migration Status, then on 10/9/2020 Logos removed all books from All WORDsearch users that were not in their Book Store History from our Migration Status. Those of us who asked about that, we were told they would not be restoed until we provide purchase receipts for those CD purchases even if those purchases are between 10 to 20 years ago as many of mine are.
I had advised Logos that WORDsearch staff informed me a few years back the following:
There were 3 ways our resources got recorded in our WORDsearch Accounts.
- The first were those STEP books that import directly to their online store, which get recorded that way, because that is the only way to get them converted into WORDsearch Format.
- The second was our purchases of later version WORDsearch CDs (After STEP books were replaced with the new format) that get recorded when we sign in to our Account through WORDsearch software when it Synchronized ownership with the WORDsearch server, but not recorded in their Book Store history because they were already in WORDsearch format directly from the CDs they were on.
- And the third way was like the first with any future online purchase from their website that gets recorded in the Online Book Store History.
Next in that email I wrote to Logos, "Sounds like you are ignoring the second method concerning those purchased CDs which Synchronize Ownership with our accounts because they were not purchased via their online store."
It is not fair to make folks search for receipts as old as 20 years or they loose those resources in Logos. I am one of those people that keep all records and have been spending hundreds of hours searching for receipts, and so far provided Logos 7 purchase receipts so far, and still looking for many others I have not found, and so far none of those I provided proof of have been restored to my migration status.
That is me, but what about all the other WORDsearch users that can not find their receipts, that is not fair to them. Especially when the Announcement on the WORDsearch website at https://wordsearchbible.lifeway.com/announcement says following:
"We understand how challenging a change like this can be, and we’re proud to let you know that as Wordsearch customers, you will retain the content you’ve purchased from Wordsearch over the years, and you can now access almost all of it using Logos, free of charge. "There is nothing there mentioned about users over the years "Except for" purchases of all those QuickVerse and WORDsearch CD which are in WORDsearch format that do not get recorded in the Online Store History. So logos is making a liar out of WORDsearch staff, with their "until you provide your receipts" clause, they have added after the fact.
I had a lot of WORDsearch CD Purchases from Christian Book Distributors, Institute for Creation Research (ICR) and other distributors as well as some Ministries of both QuickVerse and WORDsearch CDs.
In 2014 I received an email from a WORDsearch representative when I was concerned about a house fire where I lost several of my WORDsearch CDs an asked if I would be required to repurchase those CDs again, and he informed me the following:
"Please do not worry about those books, because I see the books for all those CDs are currently in your WORDsearch library and their unlocks have been stored on our website when your latest version synchronized the ownership of those books with your account. That means, because they are in your account now and recorded on our website you will have them forever with all future upgrades of our WORDsearch software."
That means "Forever", until Logos took over, and now unless you are able to find each and every receipt, you loose all those resources that were not purchased in directly from the Book Store, or as Logos staff keeps saying, they will be happy to resell you all those resources that were promised to be in our libraries "Forever".
I have only found 7 receipts of CDs so far and fear the others may have been burned up in that fire with those CDs that staff said would still be in my account forever. I fear now I will lose all those permanently in Logos, as Windows Operation Systems advance and WORDsearch will no longer be upgraded because Logos is supposed to be the new Upgrades in those future OS's replacing WORDsearch.
Why is not Logos informing its WORDsearch Customers what it is doing in this regard and why they are ignoring all those CD purchase through Authorized Distributors of WS software? Those who know about this had to Call Logos to find out where their books went, because they did not volunteer that information.
What do others think about this?
Comments
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Ricky Daugherty said:
What do others think about this?
I am still missing licenses from libronix 2 ...and I know the CD's are around here somewhere ... I think that technology has been changing so fast that loosing access to music, media, books, etc. is to be expected despite good faith efforts on everyone's part. I remember buying from a craftsman at a folk festival ... he gave a life time guarantee ... then carefully defined "life time" as his working life as a craftsman. I loved the honesty.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Respectfully, you’ve answered your own critique.
Ricky Daugherty said:the content you’ve purchased from Wordsearch
you didn’t purchase those CDs FROM WORDSEARCH.
Ricky Daugherty said:upgrades of our WORDsearch software
Logos 8 is not “our WORDsearch software“; it is a generous concession made by Faithlife as WORDsearch leaves the industry.
I hope this doesn’t come across as snarky. I have purchased STEP books that migrated into WORDsearch. I’ve purchased resources from other software that has been lost. I’m not happy about this, but it is a consequences of bargain shopping.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Ricky Daugherty said:
then on 10/9/2020 Logos removed all books from All WORDsearch users that were not in their Book Store History from our Migration Status
This is false.
They were removed from particular accounts when we couldn't verify the licenses backed up to the account. (Hence the request for you to provide receipts.) Most Wordsearch accounts kept their backed-up CD licenses.
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To an earlier post: Most those CD were Manufactured by WORDsearch and Distributed through Authorize WORDsearch Distributors, so yes they Came from WORDsearch, but just not directly from their Website. About the QuickVerse CD while not WORDsearch at the time, WORDsearch purchased them an took responsibility for those purchases as well, and Later versions of QuickVerse, one of which I am missing, was owned by WORDsearch and all the books from that Library were in WORDsearch format, meaning it was manufactured by WORDsearch under their ownership at the time, before LifeWay purchased WORDsearch, then Logos purchased WORDsearch from LifeWay.
After all, Christian Book Distributors not only sold QuickVerse and WORDsearch CDs, they also sold Logos CDs which I found several of my recepts of those purchases while looking for the WORDsearch receipts, but Logos did not take those Logos CDs away, only WORDsearch CD, which implied a bias against those who did not buy that stuff from Logos, but their competition instead, but in my case I purchase a lot from both in the days when I was working, before being disabled and unable to purchase much these days. I asked Logos if they were going to remove all my Logos 2 CDs that are in my account for the same reason, and no real answer to that question. Only what sounded like double talk omitting specifics.
To the later post, why after providing proof of some the receipts found to date are those resources not yet restored to Logos? And why am I being punished for the rest that I might not be able to still locate?
And what about the others I have read posts elsewhere that purchased a lot of WORDsearch CD in a similar manner as me, why were their books removed?
To me it appeared to be a marketing tactic from Logos, to remove all books NOT in the online purchase history in an attempt to make more money reselling those same books to folks knowing they were losing some of their favorite books and would be most likely willing to repurchase them, since the posts I saw from others said to them provide receipts, or you can go to the following link (To Logos) and purchase those there. That phrase "purchase from Logos" appeared in all the quotes I read from Logos staff. It seems like Logos assumed someone like me would not be able to find any receipts from that far back and could get away with that, but I fooled them, so far I have find 7 Receipts and still looking for more, and still nothing has been restored even after proof. And I am afraid the rest may have been stored in the rooms destroyed by fire that I wrote WORDsearch about back in 2014.
Plus nothing has been said about lack of notification to those who lost those books. I still have a little over 2 and half thousand left in that migration status from the Book Store History, but the chunk missing from all my CDs that are not there are quite significant.
It was bad enough to have my PC hacked a 4 times and ransomware installed twice, and had to restore that several times from backup, and now it seems like I am being hijacked again by Logos. So is the Devil out to get me or what? What other explanation is there if the Devil is not behind all that has happened to me, not to mention all my health problems, and that is just the tip of all my problems, large number of cats dying all in a week, car given to me died, and after expensive repair, still does not run, due to same problem water in #1 Cylinder, live by myself for 30-years, no friends, no job, etc. I feel like I have been cursed. And this piled on all the rest.
I read posts from others, after that happened, that said they were so angry about that they are moving to the Accordance Bundle for WORDsearch users that is greatly discounted. If it were not for the fact that now I am poor, I would probably be going that way also, but can not afford even the payment plan with Accordance right now, since I am currently on a Payment Plan with Logos, which is really more than I can afford right now.
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Ricky Daugherty said:
It was bad enough to have my PC hacked a 4 times and ransomware installed twice, and had to restore that several times from backup, and now it seems like I am being hijacked again by Logos. So is the Devil out to get me or what? What other explanation is there if the Devil is not behind all that has happened to me, not to mention all my health problems, and that is just the tip of all my problems, large number of cats dying all in a week, car given to me died, and after expensive repair, still does not run, due to same problem water in #1 Cylinder, live by myself for 30-years, no friends, no job, etc. I feel like I have been cursed. And this piled on all the rest.
It sounds like you are dealing with a lot right now. I pray that you will experience a taste of the Lord's goodness.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Thanks for any and all Prayers. Did not mean to burden you all with that, just discourage with too much on my plate at the same time, and being alone, there is no one to share my problems with except for me.
You made it sound like WORDsearch was simply given to Logos like a gift. I was under the impression Logos Purchased WORDsearch, for the reason you inferred above. If it was a gift, rather than a Purchase, that does change things bit, but not sure how.
Guess I know how Job felt with all that was dumped on him before later understanding the big picture.
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Ricky Daugherty said:
I was under the impression Logos Purchased WORDsearch,
I am just a pastor in East Central Kansas who has been a user of both programs for many years. I have NO INSIDE KNOWLEDGE of the purchase discussions between Lifeway and Faithlife.
In my mind, I separate 1) the Catalog of resources that WordSearch owned; 2)the Database of Users who owned licenses/unlocks to access specific items in that catalog; and 3) the computer code that permits users (#2) to access certain resources in the Catalog (#1). I believe the code (#3) is being abandoned but Faithlife is working to allow #1 and #2 to legally work with #4 (Logos 8). in that process, Faithlife is "cleaning up" the database (#2) -- by creating a "paper trail" documenting who originally sold the license/unlock and was the publisher paid their royalties at the time.
Ricky, I would share in your frustration if I had been explicitly told by a WORDsearch employee that my unlocks are documented "in the system", but that documentation doesn't indicate HOW you obtained the license/unlock.
I believe Faithlife is just trying to ensure that the unlocks/licenses that you purchased from 3rd party (CBD, ICR, etc.) legally compensated the copyright holders so that publishers can't come back to Faithlife and demand royalties for licenses that users are using with L8 that were never paid when WORDsearch CD's were being sold and resold.
[Faithlife's continued ability to get publishers to work with them depends upon these publishers trusting that Faithlife is doing everything possible to keep the publishers from being cheated out of royalties, and users from being cheated out of access that has been legally purchased.]
This is probably WAY MORE information than you need/want with your current stress level! but I wanted to offer my perspective (it is free so it is only worth what you paid for it [:D]). I truly do empathize with your overwhelming circumstances and just want to hopefully give you hope that your current frustration with migrating licenses is NOT a deliberate attempt to exploityou in any way.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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You have my prayers also!Ricky Daugherty said:Thanks for any and all Prayers. Did not mean to burden you all with that, just discourage with too much on my plate at the same time, and being alone, there is no one to share my problems with except for me.
You made it sound like WORDsearch was simply given to Logos like a gift. I was under the impression Logos Purchased WORDsearch, for the reason you inferred above. If it was a gift, rather than a Purchase, that does change things bit, but not sure how.
Guess I know how Job felt with all that was dumped on him before later understanding the big picture.
Does wordsearch 12 no longer work on your computer?
EDIT: Faithlife has a solid return policy, if you're unhappy with your payment plan, and what you purchased you could always give the customer service department a call. I believe you have 30 days.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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They were removed from particular accounts when we couldn't verify the licenses backed up to the account. (Hence the request for you to provide receipts.) Most Wordsearch accounts kept their backed-up CD licenses.
Not a Wordsearch customer BUT if the resource was linked to the Wordsearch customer is that not proof that Wordsearch accepted that the customer had a right to the resource?
I have been a Logos customer since before 2000. But the Logos records seem to only go back to 3/30/2002. On that date Logos accepted that I had a legal right to what I had. I have most of the CDs BUT the CDs had locked resources and only the ones you purchased were unlocked.Back then Logos accepted that the ones that were unlocked on my machine were ones that I had purchased.
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The Full Library is still there in WS12 on my PC. The full library is still there on www.myWSB.com web app for WORDsearch, it is just a little under half was removed by Logos in the Migration Status. I admit a large chunk of what was removed, according to a File Compare Utility comparing before and after images, that a lot of what was removed were duplicate entries, which is understanable and the rest were resources that came directly from CDs purchased from Authorized Distributors of WORDsearch software.
Update:
Right before this post I just received my first reply from WORDsearch after sending them proof of 7 CDs I have found so far, and he said there was only one due to the Cryptic Title, he could not identify, but said he added those CDs to my online purchase history. My receipt listed that as title as "WORDsearch 8 Pentecostal Library CDR" but the actual title was "The Pentecostal Library For WORDsearch 8 Compiled By Stanley M. Horton". I sent an update with more information about that CD so he can locate it in their store and hopefully get that added as well, but I had a lot more CDs that were lost in that 2014 fire, but are still in my WS12 now, and afraid those other receipts may be with those that were lost in the fire. Logos previously said I owned all those 5 books, and now the webpage says I have to pay for all 5 again.
I had about 8 1/2 thousand books on Logos, and that dropped to about 6 1/2 thousand books. You would think loyal customers like me that has invested so much in those libraries over the years before being first unemployed, then disabled, and now almost broke, that they would treat us better than this. I have been using Logos since Logos 2 and using WORDsearch since WS4 and using QuickVerse since version 3, and using BibleWorks since version 3, and upgraded as far as I could go in each back when I had work and had money. Of course I have a lot more Bible Software that those, which are the major players. Now I can not afford to repurchase all the stuff I lost and can barely afford my current Logos payment plan.
I also respect the comment about about Logos being a Good Steward and being responsible for any and all royalties, but I thought those applied at initial purchases, and not continue through out the full life of their use. If those were first time payments only, they were paid their royalties, but if there is a continued usage fee for the entire life, then such concern would be justified. But if my part of the royalties was paid when I initially purchased those resources, is it right to take their access away from us after the fact.
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I do not know if this would apply to your situation but I had 2 licenses that did not transition over. There is a note posted somewhere in here that I needed to do a backup to the cloud in Wordsearch (Options - Backup - Select All - Save To Cloud) and in a few weeks the licenses appeared in my Logos account. It is easy to do and might be worth a try.
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Ricky, I have no special information or relevant wisdom, but your situation will be in my prayers.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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posted to Re: Wordsearch Deluxe equals Logos Basic? in the Wordsearch Bible Software forum
Ricky Daugherty said:But this is NOT the first time (or I should say NOT the only time) I saw Logos take away resources we previously had in WORDsearch, and they failed to provide notice of items they took away.
Can you provide some specific examples of when this happened? AFAIK we haven't taken away resources from Wordsearch owners, so there hasn't been a need to provide advance notice.
But that post above has been since deleted so I could not point him to this thread. Maybe Bradley later remembered his post above saying books were taking from some users but not all and deleted the post having answered his own question.
My post said "they failed to provide notice of items they took away." and this thread was the first time any Logos staff had said anything about them not taking certain resources from all, but only some folks.
I have provided several receipts to Logos so far for WORDsearch CDs they took from me and only 2 were restored, and now I feel like I have been been Blacklisted on the rest of those receipts which I have sent to Logos more than once, and they still fail to honor their word to restore any more WORDsearch CDs they took from my migration status without any notice and without any explanation why, especially after I proved I purchased several of those and still not found all the rest of the WORDsearch CDs purchase receipts, but still looking as my health will permit. Logos no longer replys to those emails.
Sounds like discrimination if Logos did not make all their users provide original purchase receipts, but only some of us, and when we do provide proof of purchase, those items are still not restored to the migration status.
Not a very honest or professional response from Logos. I had recently reported to the Bob Pritchett <bob@faithlife.com> that Logos has been getting away with inflated discounts during certain sales that were far greater then actual discounts and had been saving documentation of such. After the latest Cyber Monday Sale I had sent Logos an email concerning a "Pending Class Action Lawsuit and Notice to the FTC of false advertising" which Bob personally replied to and with a promise from Bob that they would correct those to be more accurate. I had pointed out if they at least had an astrick next to those discounts and a footnote saying those were discounts from the actual list price, it might satisfy the law concerning false advertising because it was deceptive even if factually correct. I again seen the same inflated (deceptive) discounts for the Christmas Sale advertising as much as 82% off when it was actually 15% off. Bob replied their staff were tasked to correct those but had not yet finished those. Someone told me those inflated discounts were since corrected, but not confirmed that myself. My point is Logos has a history of not being quite up front with its customers, and this failure to honor their word and restore WORDsearch resources even after receiving the proof, does very little to convince me they can now be trusted.
That said, Logos and Faithlife does have some great software and great staff, but since Bob Pritchett posted here long ago, that Logos was NOT a Christian Company, but was a business that served Christians, and as many have experienced even employs many Christians, it is not surprising that Christian Principles are not applied here because Bob said this is NOT a Christian Company, even if many working there are indeed Christian. Names like Faithlife, make it sound like Logos was a Christian Company, but it seems that Faithlife is only there to support Christians with tools they use in their Christian Faith. I would be nice if the name Faithlife actually implied they were a Christian Company and governed by Christian Principles which would as the scriptures say, 1Th 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil."Probably said too much, but wanted to state the facts about this thread to date. So have I been blacklisted so that Logos refuses to honor those proofs of purchase I sent them more than once?
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David Thomas said:
Respectfully, you’ve answered your own critique.
Ricky Daugherty said:the content you’ve purchased from Wordsearch
you didn’t purchase those CDs FROM WORDSEARCH.
For the record, I purchased many Logos 2 and Logos 3 products from Authorized distrubutors of Logos products and they were considered as having came from Logos, because that was how that licensing worked, because Logos produced those products.
The same was true for those WORDsearch CDs which were produced by WORDsearch and sold by authorized WORDsearch distributors. All those CD licenses are still recognized and working in WORDsearch, but not in the Logos migration status, so your argument fails in its own merit. If sold by an authorized distributor of WORDsearch, it is the same as if it came from WORDsearch.
I did not say I purchased those from pawnshops or yard sales, but new from Authorized Distributrors of WORDsearch. So I respectfully disagree.
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Ricky,
You cast so many aspersions against logos, its seems like bitterness about Lifeway selling to Logos is consuming your life. I would call Lifeway and have them help you prove to Faithlife what information they need. Slandering Faithlife with "it seems like" or "Not very honest" or "Christian principles not applied" is wrong. As Christians we should be giving them the benefit of a doubt, until proven otherwise. Assuming, Evil non Christian motives to them is just plain wrong.
I don't know what books are missing still in your library, but in over 20 years of dealing with Logos, I have always been impressed with how they go out of there way to make customers happy.
Unfortunately Faithlife has encountered too many people who want to cheat the system, and buy on Ebay disks that have already been used, and now want to reregister them. its happened to old Logos disks and I'm sure old Quickverse & Wordsearch disks as well.
I'm sure Faithlife will do right by you, give them time to sort out everything. In the meantime you are out nothing since you can still access everything you paid for in Wordsearch, which should still operate for a good number of years yet to come.
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I will say "Amen" to what Bobby Terhune said!
Logos has proved to me that they try to do what is right... I was not optimistic when the announcement of WS and Logos came. But they have won me over.
They are a great company. Not perfect, but still a great company. Give them a chance.... you'll see....
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Ok, then how many months do they need to honor their word and restore resources they already have proof of, and why do I have to provide proof for the other CDs I am still looking for their receipts assuming they were not destroyed in that fire that took out two rooms. And why are others not being required to provide their receipts. Something is clearly wrong, regardless of what you all say. I suppose The Apostles Paul and Peter were also not acting Christian when they exposed wrongs done, or are some of you folks that disregard Paul and Peter as not being Cannon because they exposed errors of others. I do know there are some who claim to be Christian who do not believe Paul spoke for God because of some of the things he wrote. Hope the above posters are not some of those folks.
That said, yes Logos is a great product, and yes they do have some wonderful people working there, but the company has values different than some of their Christian employees have. Their CEO stated that on this forum long ago. To the Christians working at Logos, these comments are not directed at them, only the way the company has been completely ignoring me and has treated me so far. Have I been blacklisted? They will not even answer that, and is that the company you guys are defending? They may have done great to you, but how about how they did many other WORDsearch users like they did to me. I have been buying WORDsearch books since their earlier versions and had a lot invested that was all dropped without proof, then after actually providing proof for several CDs Logos has yet to honor their word. You would not believe some of the things I read on other forums about what Logos did and said to them. But none of us were contacted by Logos, we had to discover it our self without any due process notice. Most those guys left Logos for other software, but I have been with Logos since Logos 2 and have a lot invested in them. Hoping they will clean up their act, because too many good people still depend on them and are counting on them to do the right thing. I hear words of confidence from others above, but when are they going to fix things like you believe they will and why do they refuse to communicate their intentions to make it right like you believe they will. I am sorry but I see no evidence of such confidence--yet.
On a separate note, when I said above that this was not the first time Logos took stuff from us, and the reply was when? A much earlier case was my Logos User Created Time Lines and some other resources they took from us Logos Users. The CEO personally told me it was because their feedback determined there were not enough users using those tools so they were abandoned, so the only way I can still use my many User Created Timelines is to use the older Logos software that will still use those resources. There were also a large number of videos that were also abandoned that were included with the older versions, which do not work in the current version of Logos. So my statement was true, this is not the first time we lost stuff we previously had.
Posts I read from other WORDsearch users were difficult to read. Could not believe what some Logos staff had told them on the phone, but the most common statement was find your receipts, but we will be glad to SELL you those resources. Sell them resources they previously purchased just because it was too long ago to find those receipts. Sounds like the Love of Money is the root of all evil, just like with those inflated Cyber Monday and Christmas discounts of 82% which was actually only 15% with no explanation how they computed those highest discounts which tricked customers to think they were getting a greater deal than they actually did. Read a recent Blog Quote about the CEO which said, "Less controversially, Pritchett stresses the importance of cash in his book," and says, "Stresses the Importance of Replaceable Employees" (See: https://moneyinc.com/10-things-you-didnt-know-about-faithlife-ceo-bob-pritchett/ ). Strange what the love of money will do. I do want to see the Good Will you all have confidence in, but I have seen the other side which makes a Christian Cringe when they see and hear it all.
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Greeting Ricky
It seems to me that you are playing fast and loose with the English language in explaining your situation.
As far as I know, no Wordsearch User has had anything removed from Wordsearch they still have all they had access to through that program. What has happened is that some of those resources have not been transferred to their Logos Accounts.
That being true, and please put me right if it is not so, nobody has lost anything. Some people may have gained more than others. It sort of reminds me of some workers in a vineyard I read about somewhere.
I occasionally have to switch between browsers to access various sites.
I sometimes switch between word processors and databases to access different facilities.
None of my banking apps appear to work in harmony.
What is so hard about running Logos and Wordsearch side by side and using each as the situation demands?
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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When I was with WS... I too bought cd's, but I got with WS support and put all that into WS. So far, in Logos.... my transition list shows that everything I had in WS will be transitioned into Logos... but it won't happen in one day!
I know there were a lot of WS users and each user most likely had some peculiarity about them and their library, etc. But as for me, I am happy with what Logos has done with the transition so far. What has not transitioned so far I can still use in WS and do (i.e. Thompson's Chain Reference, etc.).
But you gotta give Logos kudos for trying to satisfy all us WS users and in a very reasonable time way. I'm happy already and when all my library is transitioned... maybe I'll learn by then how to use all that in Logos... It's a learning curve for sure... but maybe then I'll be ecstatic?
I see a lot of frustration with having to learn Logos and not having all one's library in Logos. It's like learning a new program and trying to do what you use to do and not having your old comfortable books to do it with. I get that.
Remember.... it's whole new way of working... learn Logos... and when all the books are transitioned... then you'll have almost all if not all of your WS library and be ready to use them with a more powerful tool. Until then, use WS when you get hung up in Logos... WS still works for now...
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Ricky,
Way back Logos allowed Thomas Nelson to "produce" their own Logos compatible content, and sell their CD's through bookstores and online sales. They also produce Author packages with video and audio content. Logos did not own the rights to this nor did they control the content. Tagging was minimal, typos never seemed to get fixed and so forth.
Another company called E4 and also Ages software also produced their own CD's and tagged their own books. They also had quality control issues but worse than what Thomas Nelson did.
Logos decided to take matters into their own hands and produce the content for Logos Bible Software. They eliminated all third party vendors, and over time produced their own version of the books others used to provide. For instance Ages used to provide the old Logos edition of the ISBE, Spurgeon's sermons, Adam Clarke commentaries and so forth. All have now been replace by Logos.
Bottom line, you cannot blame Logos for issues arising from old third party vendors who chose not to support their product back in the day, books, video's and audio files. For instance the quality of Journals that Logos produces is of superior quality than that provided by Galaxie, but of course there is a cost difference for that quality. Some don't care, some do, and Logos reinstated them into the Logos ecosystem. Albeit without the Journal tagging which hopefully will eventually be added into Galaxie's product.
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Mike Binks said:
As far as I know, no Wordsearch User has had anything removed from Wordsearch they still have all they had access to through that program. What has happened is that some of those resources have not been transferred to their Logos Accounts.
That being true, and please put me right if it is not so, nobody has lost anything.
I respectfully have to say your facts are not correct and disagrees with what a Faithlife staff posted above about that not happening to all WS users but only some.
We are not talking about resources not yet completed and not yet started, but resources that were in the Logos Migration Status listing and then completely removed without Logos or Faithlife notifying any WS users.
Some other Christian Websites which have forums, I have seen several hundred people complaining they lost several thousand books from their WS libraries, and they were never notified by Logos, and those who said they called Logos customer Service they pointed out that most of those books came from their CDs most of which were so long ago the no longer kept the receipts, nor were they required to do so because those book ownerships licenses were already synchronized with the WORDsearch website and they had backup copies of their licenses. A couple folks said when they confronted Logos about their missing books and Logos said they had to provide proof of purchase before getting those books back, some staff were so bold as to accuse the WORDsearch users of having pirated those books which they had legally purchased over the years, just like I did. My Jaw dropped when I read those unwarranted accusations by Logos staff for books legally purchased. Most those guys were so steaming mad at being falsely accused, that they were leaving Logos and buying the Accordance WORDsearch Crossover bundles being offered to WS users. I admit that Logos staff has not accused me of pirating those books, but they are treating me like they think that is the case. They acted like I was like others who would have lost our receipts years ago, but I keep records of everything. The only stuff I lost were items in two rooms that were destroyed by fire which included some of the original CDs. I have a 2014 eMail from WORDsearch Customer service where I had been discussing that fire and the lost CDs and asking if I was going to have to repurchase all those CDs, and was told they were Synchronized Ownership for all those CDs in My WORDsearch account and could be downloaded fresh anytime and I would have access to those forever. Logos when they removed about 2000 some odd books from my migration status made a liar out of that WORDsearch Customer Service. WORDsearch said I would have those forever, but now Logos says only if I can find those receipts, but now they are ignoring even items I send them receipts for. Not all my Original CDs were in the rooms destroyed by fire, but some were in my Computer Room, and still have those today. I sent Logos copies of all the Boxes and CDs I still had and they did not restore those to the Migration Status. Later I started finding receipts for older CDs and submitted about 10 of those I have found to date. They later added 2 of those CDs and for the rest I provided proof for, I stopped receiving answers from Logos. When I sent several another emails to Logos asking about those, I get no replies. I proved them wrong that they thought I could not find receipts even though it took me several weeks to find those I did and now I fear the rest may have been burned up in that fire mentioned in that email from WORDsearch that I also sent to Logos, with no reply. My WORDsearch to Logos Migration Status is supposed to have 5,723 resources, but not it only has 2,706 and that is after they added only two missing CDs.
I read reports of others loosing more and some less than I did, but Logos has yet to explain why. The reply I received was something like they were unable to verify some licenses. All those licenses are on record in the WORDsearch website and all still there on the WORDsearch web App page www.MyWSB.com, but about half have been removed from Migration Status, but were there initially. From what I can tell, is Logos left all items that were purchased directly from the WORDsearch bookstore online, but removed all items that had disc licenses that were added to my WORDsearch account as owned by me. In the old days, we purchased many items by mail via Authorized Distributors of WORDsearch software, because online purchasing was not as common as it is these days. Some of us did not yet trust buying online for fear of having our accounts robbed. Most my purchase were by Check, by mail, but only these past 5 years were my purchases from the WORDsearch online store. So according the Faithlife post above, some, but not all, of us older WORDsearch users had our CDs removed from our migration if it was not recorded in the Online Books Store, which eliminated about half the books I purchase over the years. Last few years I have been a poor person and purchased much less than before. Some of the bundles I purchased online at a great discount due to the dynamic pricing because of those many books I already had on those CDs that Logos removed from my migration status. Logos is being inconsistent. If they are removing those CDs purchased from Authorized WORDsearch Distributors, then they need to also remove all those book which are included on other larger libraries that were discounted because I already owned those books in those CDs they removed from my account.
I had questioned why Logos staff keeps telling us we can repurchase all those missing resources if available in Logos from them now. With all I had seen about Logos love of Money and removing such large number of books, that seemed like a gimic to trick us to repurchase those resources, because the bottom line is profit. President and CEO Bob Pritchett said in a post here, one of the reasons he did not want Logos to be Christian was it was a For-Profit Company and Logos does not have a Soul. For-Profit seems to mean two things: 1) Tax Status; and 2) goal is to make as much profit as possible, as seen in recent inflated discounts that are not real discounts. And not having a Soul, that means that Logos does not have to apply Christian Principles of Honestly and integrity since they have no soul and are not accountable to God because, as Bob said they are only a Business, not a person with a soul.
A lot of the positive things I read here about Logos is true, and they have treated a lot of folks here great, and I am glad they have done well by you others here, but those of us that were singled out for some unstated reason, they have created a lot of enemies that have bailed ship after such treatment. I am not just one person treated like this, but I am the one that did not jump ship, because I have too much invested here of the years.
You would think loyalty for a Customer of both Logos and WORDsearch for so many years and all I spent on both when I did have money would count for something, and I sure do not deserve to be treated the way Logos has treated me as of late.
Enough said. I should not even have said what I did, but I feel like the truth needs to be declared. Or at least got off my Chest since this treatment is eating me up with all the other health issues I have.
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I am sorry for your problem.
If I was Logos... and you said you had something that did not show in the records that WS had... then I, like Logos, would ask you to produce your license and I, like Logos have said, would make it right.
Now having said that.... I suggest you get with Logos Support and work all this out. If you have called them already.... call again... persistence does pay.... even with God. [:)]
Other than that.... I would say, it's not the Christian way to just rant about it. No offense meant. Just saying.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
If I was Logos... and you said you had something that did not show in the records that WS had... then I, like Logos, would ask you to produce your license and I, like Logos have said, would make it right.
I can vouch for the fact that they do for the early Libronix products -- I've been keeping my eyes out for one particular disk for more than a decade.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I can say I understand your frustration. You are not alone. I have lost many books over the years from sellouts give a ways or whatever anyone wants to call or label a product changing from 1 owner to another. With the transfer from Lifeway/Wordsearch to Logos I was told to show proof of cd's for Doxa Digital purchases made. I have found 3 but as I remember the rest were downloads. I have the downloaded file on my computer but no proof of cd purchase. I don't have a Logos cd it was a download file. There are many more items/books then Doxa Digital but mentioned those as recent. The fact is what I was to believe I owned is really only as good as it being on my computer. I was led to believe I owned Doxa Digital titles through Wordsearch/Lifeway but will possibly only ever own them as long as they remain on my computer. I didn't realize that Doxa Digital was really never on my Wordsearch account as titles owned. What happens after Wordsearch disappears I still don't have the cd's for Doxa Digital so no way to have them added to my Logos account.
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Pack of lies. I have lost over half of my library. After going round robin with your support, it was a nightmare. All they wanted to do was sell me a new package of Logos for like $800 . Now I can’t even use my WORDSearch. Explain that!
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If any of the books are in step format Google step reader for help. [[you may need the original CD]]
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Ricky Daugherty said:
Some other Christian Websites which have forums, I have seen several hundred people complaining they lost several thousand books from their WS libraries
Could you point us to those forums? I'd be interested in seeing the comments. I have not had any issues with my large library, but I was careful to contact Wordsearch a few years ago when Bibleworks folded to make sure all my purchases were recorded. There were many books I had gotten from serial number unlock or CD that had not been automatically registered to my account.
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John Simpson said:
Could you point us to those forums? I'd be interested in seeing the comments. I have not had any issues with my large library, but I was careful to contact Wordsearch a few years ago when Bibleworks folded to make sure all my purchases were recorded. There were many books I had gotten from serial number unlock or CD that had not been automatically registered to my account.Ricky Daugherty said:Some other Christian Websites which have forums, I have seen several hundred people complaining they lost several thousand books from their WS libraries
There are several different Christian websites where I saw similar discussions. Too many to list here, but you can search for them on Google. Many were venting their anger after Logos told them if they can not find their receipts, they would be glad to sell them those resources, they already paid for, ignoring the fact that WORDsearch recognized all those removed books as legally purchased.
With me I had many discussions with WORDsearch staff over the years, and each time we discussed a different package I had and items were missing in other upgrades for dynamic pricing but those were in my WORDsearch account, Customer Service added those to my Online Purchases. But that is where the problem lies, I had many older WS CDs that I never had a problem with and I did get dynamic upgrade pricing on bundled books based on those older CDs which Logos has since removed, so because I never discussed those CDs or books, those were never added to my Online Purchase History like the other items we discussed were added, and it is those items that Logos is demanding receipts for and while I found many, I could not find them all. WORDsearch Customer Service had no problem recognizing I owned all those items that were in my Account via CD licenses synced with my Account, but not placed in the Online books story purchase history, and that is what Logos demands proof of purchase for even though WORDsearch Staff had no problem recognizing I owned those.
Those items Logos took away, are in my WORDsearch Account but not in the Bookstore history, and WORDsearch recognized that ownership, but Logos rejected those. Based on all I saw and read, I believe Logos thought those of us who owned very large WORDsearch libraries (and in my case Have a very large Logos library) that; 1) we could afford to repurchase those again, and 2) we would not be able to find those receipts for those CDs; and 3) they could use that as a tactic to get us to buy those again from Logos. It is my contention, that Logos thought if we spent that much for that many books, and that we most likely could not find receipts for all those CDs, that we more than likely would repurchase all those CDs from Logos. Logos left the items that were in the Online Books Store History for our accounts, and took items that were licensed via those CD purchases. They failed to consider some of us may still have those older receipts, and the fact that while in the past when I was working I could afford to buy all those books then, that now that I am disabled and not working, and therefore, I can not afford to repurchase all those books again, nor should I have to. If WORDsearch recognized I owned those, and even told me (in writing via email which I still have) that I would have those forever because their ownership was synchronized with my account, then why would Logos now demand proof, unless they have a hidden agenda to trick us to rebuy books we already paid for and have license to in our Account.
Plus the fact that I have provided them with proof of several of those WORDsearch CDs legally purchased from Authorized Distributors, like Christian Book Distributors, but they still refuse to restore those books even after receiving said proof, and now Logos refuses to even talk to me about those, and ignores many many eMails to Customer Service about the proof they already received. Several here talk about their faith that Logos will make it right, but where is the evidence they will, when they refuse to honor their own word that they would restore the books they removed from my account after I provided them the proof they demanded.
For those that defend their Faith in Logos actions and belief that Logos will make it right, how do you explain their refusal to honor their word and refusal to answer my emails? The fact that I have seen and have proof that Logos has used dishonest tactics to make sales with things like inflated discounts that were not real, then only logical contention I can concluded is Logos is refusing to restore those expecting me to repurchase books I already owned licenses to.
Logos never made me provide proof of purchase from all my Logos 2 and Logos 3 books I had which were synchronized with the Libronix Server years ago, but now expect proof for all the earlier version WORDsearch CDs that had ownership already synchronized with my WORDsearch account. And a lot of those WS CDs were purchased from the same authorized distributors as those Logos 2 and Logos 3 CDs. There is a double standard which appears to discriminate, especially since they do not demand proof for others who never lost their CD purchases from their WS account.Wondering if I need to report this for an investigation as a possible Class Action Lawsuit, because so many others were treated the same way. See https://topclassactions.com/start-a-class-action/ where such can be reported for investigation and may lead to a Class Action Lawsuit if they find grounds to file after their investigation.
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Cecil Cox said:
Pack of lies. I have lost over half of my library. After going round robin with your support, it was a nightmare. All they wanted to do was sell me a new package of Logos for like $800 . Now I can’t even use my WORDSearch. Explain that!
While I share your pain and experience, also losing a little under half, I did not experience any loss in WORDsearch where everything still is there. Others only lost those books in the Migration Status, but those were still uneffected in their WORDsearch 12 on their PCs and still in their Online App (www.MyWSB.com). So not sure why you lost your WORDsearch. You should be able to restore your licenses from the website.
For me should I install WS12 on a new PC, as soon as I log in, all the books I had, including the ones Logos removed from us, still will unlock and download fresh from the WORDsearch website. That is what WORDsearch Customer Support emailed me about in 2014 when I had a fire that burned 2 rooms and I was asking if I needed to repurchase those CDs, and received the following reply:
Lifeway Customer Service said:Subject: WORDSearch CDs Lost in Fire Damage
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 14:09:23 -0500
Greetings XXX,
Thank you for your email. Please do not worry about those books, because I see the books for all those
CDs are currently in your WORDsearch library and their unlocks have been stored on our website when
your latest version synchronized the ownership of those books with your account. That means, because
they are in your account now and recorded on our website you will have them forever with all future
upgrades of our WORDsearch software. That means you will not have to repurchase any of those CDs
because you already have them all in your library and therefore you have them in your account, so should
you need to reinstall them later on a different computer, all those books will be available when you sign
into your account with our software, and it will download all those books from our online server.
So in short you will not have to repurchase any of them, because they were all upgraded to the
latest version and synchronized ownership with your account. Also you have the option to backup
the unlocks and save on an external disc, and after any new reinstall, you can restore those
backups and you can redownload all those books fresh from our website without those CDs.
If you have any more questions or concerns, feel free to contact us any time and our staff will be able to
assist you further. Thank you again for your understanding and patience and thank you for allowing us to
serve you.
Have a nice day and God Bless you in your studies.Logos made that guy a liar with their actions to the contrary!
Plus someone else above said:
xnman said:I am sorry for your problem.
If I was Logos... and you said you had something that did not show in the records that WS had... then I, like Logos, would ask you to produce your license and I, like Logos have said, would make it right.
Now having said that.... I suggest you get with Logos Support and work all this out. If you have called them already.... call again... persistence does pay.... even with God.
Other than that.... I would say, it's not the Christian way to just rant about it. No offense meant. Just saying.
..., but that is not the case. We have those books registered in our WORDsearch account. Those CDs had ownership syncronized with our WORDsearch accounts, but not added to the Online Bookstore Purchase History which is only for the On-line purchases, but not CDs purchased from Authorized Distributors of WORDsearch CDs. That fact that those books initially were in our Migration Status, shows they were in our account but were just not in the Online Bookstore Purchases because they were purchased from Authorized Distributers on WORDsearch CDs which were licensed with our Accounts from those CDs.
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Ricky Daugherty said:
There are several different Christian websites where I saw similar discussions. Too many to list here, but you can search for them on Google.
I have done several Google & Bing searches and have not found any Wordsearch/Faithlife discussions from users, so a list would be appreciated.
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John Simpson said:
I have done several Google & Bing searches and have not found any Wordsearch/Faithlife discussions from users, so a list would be appreciated.
I visit so many sites, I can not possibly remember then all. I was looking for other discussions when finding those posts on other forums. I suggest you do not search for WORDsearch or Faithlife or even Logos, but instead search for Christian Forums, then when visiting those sites, then search for what you are looking for such as WORDsearch and/or Logos after getting on those forums.
Because not all sites get scanned by Google, so you may have to create forum accounts and log in before you can search for such items on those various forums.
I just remember seeing those posts, but not exactly where, but you can see a similar post just a few posts above in this thread. I mostly remember my shock when reading what was posted on some, and other posts did have links to other forums that discussed this subject. So if you can find one of those posts, it is like a Thompson Chain Reference where one link takes you to another, which takes you to another, etc.
But that is why I am posting here, because I can remember this site, being I have about 8,000 logos books and been using Logos since Version 2.
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Ricky Daugherty said:
Based on all I saw and read, I believe Logos thought those of us who owned very large WORDsearch libraries (and in my case Have a very large Logos library) that; 1) we could afford to repurchase those again, and 2) we would not be able to find those receipts for those CDs; and 3) they could use that as a tactic to get us to buy those again from Logos. It is my contention, that Logos thought if we spent that much for that many books, and that we most likely could not find receipts for all those CDs, that we more than likely would repurchase all those CDs from Logos.
This is a baseless, false, and scurrilous accusation.
There are a small number of users for which the Wordsearch Sales database (that we acquired from LifeWay) simply doesn't provide proof of ownership for the resources in their Wordsearch desktop account. You are one of those users. There are over 2,800 licenses on your account that are recorded in the Sales database, and for which we have provided you with Logos versions. But there are an additional 7,055 unlocks associated with your account for which we cannot establish a legitimate basis of ownership.
(These were initially unlocked on your Logos account when we first performed the migration. This was our mistake: we should never have unlocked them (because we had no proof of ownership), and it looked like you lost resources when they were re-locked.)
Before we provide a license in Logos for 7,055 pieces of copyrighted material (on which we have a moral and contractual responsibility to pay royalties), we're asking you to provide proof of ownership. Until that is furnished, you can keep using that content in Wordsearch, but we will not provide a complimentary Logos version of that content.
Ricky Daugherty said:Plus the fact that I have provided them with proof of several of those WORDsearch CDs legally purchased from Authorized Distributors, like Christian Book Distributors, but they still refuse to restore those books even after receiving said proof
I'll follow up on this. If we have received the proof, we should unlock them.
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Ricky Daugherty said:
Plus the fact that I have provided them with proof of several of those WORDsearch CDs legally purchased from Authorized Distributors, like Christian Book Distributors, but they still refuse to restore those books even after receiving said proof
I'll follow up on this. If we have received the proof, we should unlock them.
Thank you for being willing to help, however, that does not explained why you only did this to some and for others you left their CDs that were not purchased from the On-line Book Store. Plus it does not explain why multiple emails to Logos are completely ignored leaving me to feel I have been blacklisted. Is that any way to treat someone who has been a customer with Logos since Logos 2 and who has spent so much over the years, (and lately on a fixed SSI budget) from Logos so far?
While I read many angry posts about this happening, I read others that replied that said they have all their CDs that were not purchased in the Online Books Store still in their Logos Migration Status. Guess I would not be as upset if you did the same (requiring proof of purchase for all WORDsearch user's CDs) of all WORDseach users, but since you did not require the same proof from all WORDsearch users, that is not right and violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution and amounts to discrimination.
While I appreciate your denial of my contention above, I do not see the facts that disprove what I contended. I would love to believe there was no greedy malicious intent, but you yourself said you did not do this to all users, and I do not have the facts about others it happened to and whether or not they also had a large library or if some actually did have smaller library.
So whether or not your assertion is true, let me restate my contention that without other information it has the appearance of what I suspect even if my contention is not true. You folks left us with very little information as to what was going on, and because you never provided any notice about your actions, all we can do is speculate, due to lack of information from Logos.
If my assertion is incorrect, I will be glad to retract my contention and admit on the record I was wrong. But I will need evidence to know I was wrong.
But for now, I will acknowledge my contention could be wrong, but have no way to know otherwise with all I saw and read by others this happened to. So for now, my contention is not a known fact, but my suspicion from all I have seen.
PS.
You said, "But there are an additional 7,055 unlocks associated with your account for which we cannot establish a legitimate basis of ownership." From my before and after list, I believe that should be closer to 2000, not 7000, otherwise you have to remove many more books from my Migration. That 7055 would remove all the books you say are in the Online Bookstore history. I suspect that number may have been before you removed the other books, but that number is not correct as you stated it. Maybe that number was a typo.
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Ricky Daugherty said:
I visit so many sites, I can not possibly remember then all.
You don't have the sites bookmarked?
I checked these sites, and found only 2 posts. One negative from Sept 21 when it was just announced and another positive.
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-7434#post-4375940
https://www.puritanboard.com/search/53011/?q=wordsearch&o=date
https://www.baptistboard.com/threadloom/search
http://www.talkjesus.com/search/140650/?q=wordsearch&o=date
https://www.worthychristianforums.com/search/?q=wordsearch&quick=1
https://christianchat.com/search/452876/?q=wordsearch&o=date
https://www.christianforums.com/threadloom/search?query=wordsearch%20after:2020-01-06&tab=407
https://www.christianityboard.com/threadloom/search?query=wordsearch%20after:2020-01-06&tab=411
https://www.savedbygrace.org.uk/
https://christianityhaven.com/
https://friendsofjesus.proboards.com/0 -
John Simpson said:Ricky Daugherty said:
I visit so many sites, I can not possibly remember then all.
You don't have the sites bookmarked?
No, sorry! As I said I was searching for another topic, and was following URL links from one site to another, so no I did not bookmark those. Besides I do not bookmark any websites. Sites I want to save, I copy the URL from the browser and past into Shortcuts in a folder with shortcuts.
Also a few may be other's personal blogs. I can not remember every website I went to that far back. I am very old and my memory does not work that well. Also I suspect since others were angry when posting, when they settled down later, I suspect a few of those may have had the sense to remove their posts. I know if I said some of that stuff in anger, I might have been embarrased to know I said some of what I read, that I would have later deleted my post. But some may not have had such a conscience and left their posts, and some were not that angry but were more factual.
There was a lot of speculation on some of those sites that suggested what I did, because the most frequent quote in 90% of those posts talked about how Logos staff said something like "we can sell you those again", but using different words that said the same thing.
I doubt you would find out more than what I have posted here, except see how upset most those folks were and venting anger believing Logos to be corrupt, even though Logos above says they are not. Their words, not mine, but I am waiting to see proof they are wrong. The fact that their staff lied to me and failed to honor their word when I provided proof for some, makes me inclined to believe their assertions. Plus the fact that WORDsearch knows we purchased those, but Logos requires proof, makes me question their motive. It has an appearance that is not good.
I quoted a Bible verse above that says "1Th_5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.", but that is not being avoided here or disproved. They may indeed not be evil, yet they have allowed the appearance of bad faith. But the Jury is out and decision is not final yet.
So all I can say is sorry.
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Ricky,
I've known Logos for almost 25 years, I regularly visit the forums, and can say I trust them to do the right thing and even more than the right thing. If Bradley is having a problem with your account, there must be more to it than what you are suggesting. You need to work it out between you and him.
I too can't find on the web all those disgruntled WS customers. Sure there are a few, but you paint a much blacker picture of what supposedly Faithlife has done to select WS customers. Even on the Accordance web there are no complainers, just customers preferring one software over another. Where is the hue and cry you seem to imply is out there?
I suggest you quit trying to drum up support for your view of what is happening to you and quit slandering Logos. Just call and work things out with them.
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Ricky Daugherty said:
While I appreciate your denial of my contention above, I do not see the facts that disprove what I contended. I would love to believe there was no greedy malicious intent, but you yourself said you did not do this to all users, and I do not have the facts about others it happened to and whether or not they also had a large library or if some actually did have smaller library.
I don't know how to prove this to you, but I was in dozens of meetings totaling hundreds of hours of discussion about the Wordsearch acquisition, and I never heard even a hint of a plan to make Wordsearch users repurchase their libraries in Logos.
Ricky Daugherty said:You said, "But there are an additional 7,055 unlocks associated with your account for which we cannot establish a legitimate basis of ownership." From my before and after list, I believe that should be closer to 2000, not 7000, otherwise you have to remove many more books from my Migration. That 7055 would remove all the books you say are in the Online Bookstore history. I suspect that number may have been before you removed the other books, but that number is not correct as you stated it. Maybe that number was a typo.
According to the data we received from LifeWay, your account has 242 orders comprising 2,268 unique CROSS IDs (book IDs). You have been given complementary Logos editions of these resources (listed on your library migration page).
Your account also has 7,055 "self reported" licenses (these could be from CD backups or other sources). This is not a typo.
Maybe the LifeWay data was corrupted. Maybe your account was hacked. Maybe someone found a way to crack Wordsearch's DRM then transferred their library to you. Maybe these were all completely legal purchases. I don't know. But we have reasons to be suspicious of this data, and until you (and other customers in similar situations) can provide proof of purchase, we are not treating these as legitimate licenses that we will automatically be transferring into Logos.
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There are over 2,800 licenses on your account that are recorded in the Sales database, and for which we have provided you with Logos versions. But there are an additional 7,055 unlocks associated with your account for which we cannot establish a legitimate basis of ownership.
(...) I'll follow up on this. If we have received the proof, we should unlock them.
Question 1: "there are an additional 7,055 unlocks associated with your account for which we cannot establish a legitimate basis of ownership."
Where are the records of these "additional 7,055 unlocks"? Are they anywhere on any WORDsearch data base? If so then I would read that as that WORDsearch had accepted that the user had rights to the resources. Had WORDsearch unlocked the resources for the user or did the third party? Did WORDsearch recognize the purchase from some third party and because some long ago employee at WORDsearch "forgot" to also add it to the "Sales database" now the user can not use the resource because WORDsearch said OK but because it is not in the "Sales database" FL says NO!
Question 2: how could someone add "7,055 unlocks" to a WORDsearch installation if they did not buy them from WORDsearch or some authorized WORDsearch third party? [[Or is that why WORDsearch went under because it was so easy to just add unauthorized resources?]]
EDIT ADD:
I also saw your reply "Maybe the LifeWay data was corrupted. Maybe your account was hacked. Maybe someone found a way to crack Wordsearch's DRM then transferred their library to you. Maybe these were all completely legal purchases. I don't know. But we have reasons to be suspicious of this data, and until you (and other customers in similar situations) can provide proof of purchase, we are not treating these as legitimate licenses that we will automatically be transferring into Logos."
My thought [as opposed to what should really happen] is that if WORDsearch accepted the resource as legitimate then FL might want to consider that as WORDsearch accepted the resource as legitimate then on the copyright issue WORDsearch took the rights to the resource as legitimate.
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David Ames said:
My thought [as opposed to what should really happen] is that if WORDsearch accepted the resource as legitimate then FL might want to consider that as WORDsearch accepted the resource as legitimate then on the copyright issue WORDsearch took the rights to the resource as legitimate.
We're not taking away the licenses: they can be used in Wordsearch (as long as that program works, which could be a very long time if you set it up in a VM).
However, I don't believe we're under any obligation to give away corresponding Logos licenses. (And that's true for any WS customer. It would have been completely legal--though perhaps a bad business decision--for us to buy Wordsearch, shut it down immediately, and tell everyone they have to start over at Logos, maybe with a 10% crossgrade discount if we were feeling generous. Obviously we chose the more customer-friendly route of trying to replicate customers' libraries as closely as possible in Logos--an expensive and time-consuming task we're still working on.)
And note that having a Logos license doesn't just provide access to the content: having a license for a resource enables dynamic pricing on any bundle containing that content. I don't believe that this was a feature of the Wordsearch Store, so that's an additional (and completely new) benefit of having the content in Logos, besides all the other advanced features of our platform.
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There are a small number of users for which the Wordsearch Sales database (that we acquired from LifeWay) simply doesn't provide proof of ownership for the resources in their Wordsearch desktop account. You are one of those users. There are over 2,800 licenses on your account that are recorded in the Sales database, and for which we have provided you with Logos versions. But there are an additional 7,055 unlocks associated with your account for which we cannot establish a legitimate basis of ownership.
Before we provide a license in Logos for 7,055 pieces of copyrighted material (on which we have a moral and contractual responsibility to pay royalties), we're asking you to provide proof of ownership. Until that is furnished, you can keep using that content in Wordsearch, but we will not provide a complimentary Logos version of that content.
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The reason I dispute your 7,055 count is first of all I only have 4004 resources in WORDsearch. Yes I know you count books differently, because some books in WS are multi volume and you count individual volumes.
Second, lets use your own data. Your WORDsearch to Logos Migration data listed 5,723 books before you removed some from that list, and now after your removed those, the list currently has a count of 2,706 that are still in my migration status which you claim comes from those books which are found in the WORDsearch online bookstore history. The difference is 3,017 which was higher than I guessed I had lost. So I now see it was more than half, not less than half as I previously guessed.
Where, or how did I get my numbers? I kept going to your migration status page at https://www.logos.com/wordsearch/library-migration, then I would highlight every entry in that page and copy it to the clipboard. Next I would past the full list into a .txt file. Then I open that text file with Notepad++ which has a line number for each row. After I delete the heading information and delete the footer information, each row is each entry in your migration status. Because I saved those multiple times, I have a before and after image and can clearly see the counts you have recorded.
I admit that as I monitored those counts every day, I did see them change over time, because I saw some books were repeated under different book IDs and later doing text compares to see what was removed, I see you consolidated repeat titles under a single book ID entry.
So if your data is counting duplicate licenses that you later consolidated, that might account for an increased number on your report, but I still doubt it would be that high, because they did not remove that many duplicate titles to account for the numbers you listed.
So I simply do not know where you got those numbers, because that does not match the data you previously reported to me in those migration status counts.
If you say, "There are over 2,800 licenses on your account that are recorded in the Sales database" and my migration status lists only 2,706 resources being migrated, then I wonder did you round up? 2,800 - 2,706 = 94. And your migration status includes counts of books not started and not finished as well as finished. So where are the other 94 books you say I was granted under your migration transition?
And if my list before those being removed counted at 5,723, then how do you come up with 7,055 which is more than you previously reported you found before you removed the rest.
Please forgive me but I am confused.
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Maybe the LifeWay data was corrupted. Maybe your account was hacked. Maybe someone found a way to crack Wordsearch's DRM then transferred their library to you. Maybe these were all completely legal purchases. I don't know. But we have reasons to be suspicious of this data, and until you (and other customers in similar situations) can provide proof of purchase, we are not treating these as legitimate licenses that we will automatically be transferring into Logos.
Such a suggestion that "Maybe your account was hacked." would concern me. First the only one who would want to hack my account, would be me, because no one else would have a reason to do so, and I have no idea of how to do that. Second, if I were do hack that website, then logically I would have hacked the bookstore to add those books there, but again I would not know how to do that, nor would I do such. And thirdly, if that was hacked, they that means there is a data breach and we all need to be concerned that our data was compromised, which includes our credit card numbers. I think it is safe to rule that out, but just in case, I advise others to monitor their banking in case their cards were compromised, and/or for identity theft. Ergo we all should be concerned if that was the case.
I can tell you this, a long time ago I read there was a bug found in the WS backup option and they advised on another website to manually backup the main unlocks file, and since I periodically did that many times over the years, I would rename the backup like List1, list2, list3, or something like that, and save those in a separate folder on and external drive, which is that that website sugested to do. Later I started using the date I backed those up as part of the file name, because you can not have the same name repeated in a folder, if you are saving several snapshots in time like I did. Several times in the past I had my PC hijacked 3 times. 2 times I had ransom ware, and one time someone took control of my PC. I have no idea what may have been stole from my PC when they took over control. The PC was running overnight, and they locked out my keyboard access, and a reboot failed to restore my control, so that was another hard drive rebuild from scratch. Each time I had to rebuild my entire hard drive by having to reinstall all the software and thinking I may have copied all those items in the backup to the folder where they came from. I do not know if multiple copies of my own backups under a different name caused the confusion. But was following the work around for the Backup bug that was reported. I am thinking they said the restore kept freezing up WORDsearch and would crash, or something like that. Later when I found that old email from Lifeway (posted above) after reading that again, I then realized I could simply log in and the unlocks would be restored from the WORDsearch website and there was no need to back those up any more, so after the second Ransom ware attack, the last time I rebuilt my PC after installing WORDsearch I simply let WS12 get those license from the WS website rather than restoring them manually as I did in the past.
In hindsight, I wonder if my duplicate unlocks files with different file names messed up that system. They were still all my unlocks, but under different file names. I now realize I followed bad advice on how to backup those books. I never did hear if they fixed the bug in the backup option that required the manual way to save my unlocked books. All I know is on my end WORDsearch worked fine when I restored those, so did not act like it messed it up on my PC.
Otherwise, I really do not know what could have happened, but I did not hack anything as suggested above. To do any such thing would require more knowledge than I have, and would violate my values that I hold dear.
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Ricky Daugherty said:
The reason I dispute your 7,055 count is first of all I only have 4004 resources in WORDsearch.
I understand you're disputing this figure, but you're making my point.
What we have is the data we got from LifeWay. In that data, you have 7,055 "self reported" CROSS IDs. 6,298 of these are distinct from the 2,268 CROSS IDs you own in the Sales Database.
I think you're claiming you own 1,736 (4004-2268) of those 6,298. Based on the data we have, how are we supposed to know what you own and what's extra (invalid) data that's somehow ended up on your account? That's why we're asking for proof of purchase.
Ricky Daugherty said:If you say, "There are over 2,800 licenses on your account that are recorded in the Sales database" and my migration status lists only 2,706 resources being migrated, then I wonder did you round up? 2,800 - 2,706 = 94.
The number of Logos licenses you have from Wordsearch is 2,858. This includes 143 licenses included as part of "WS Basic +" (which was the free package unlocked based on your WS package: https://files.logoscdn.com/v1/files/45561287/content.pdf?signature=B7M_mhfLktiAHHtsu8A5fek3BDg). That leaves 2,715 licenses. The discrepancy (with 2,706) is the complicated unlocking that was performed for these commentaries: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/193950/1118077.aspx#1118077
Ricky Daugherty said:And if my list before those being removed counted at 5,723, then how do you come up with 7,055 which is more than you previously reported you found before you removed the rest.
It's the count of records on your account in the LifeWay database.
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Ricky Daugherty said:
Such a suggestion that "Maybe your account was hacked." would concern me.
I didn't mean to suggest this was likely. I don't know how to explain the thousands of extra licenses on your account and was brainstorming possible explanations.
Ricky Daugherty said:And thirdly, if that was hacked, they that means there is a data breach and we all need to be concerned that our data was compromised, which includes our credit card numbers. I think it is safe to rule that out, but just in case, I advise others to monitor their banking in case their cards were compromised, and/or for identity theft.
We have no evidence that there was ever any breach of the Wordsearch Ecommerce Store; moreover, no credit card information was transferred during the acquisition.
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And note that having a Logos license doesn't just provide access to the content: having a license for a resource enables dynamic pricing on any bundle containing that content. I don't believe that this was a feature of the Wordsearch Store, so that's an additional (and completely new) benefit of having the content in Logos, besides all the other advanced features of our platform.
That is where you are mistaken. WORDsearch did in fact have dynamic pricing even though they did not call it that. I argued above and to your Customer Service, that a lot of the libraries you removed, had many books that were used in the WORDsearch book store to reduce my purchase cost of other bundles, and upgrades which were recorded in my Online Bookstore History. Several times I was looking at book listings for other libraries and would see a title I had that was not marked as owned by me but yet was in my library. Each time I called WORDsearch Customer Service and several times emailed them and they added those books after they verified I had them, and then added those books to my Online Purchase History, which dropped my dynamic price to a point I could afford, and several upgrade libraries were purchased by me based on those dynamic Pricing additions of books not showing up when I viewed their Bookstore Listing.
But that points out the fact that WORDsearch did have some record keeping issues, and they admitted that to me in the emails I received, and can still produce. Each time they said if I owned that book I should get credit for that that book in the dynamic pricing of upgrade libraries. They also explained over they years, maybe during change of ownership (which did happen more than once before Logos acquired them), they changed a lot of book IDs that were used in older versions to newer IDs in the later bookstore. They explained that was why my books did not show up as owned in the later library listings, because while the same title, many still had the older book IDs and was never upgraded to the later newer Book IDs. I suspect that is what your people ran into as I saw repeated titles under different book IDs in your Migration Status Listing, which were later consolidated to a single Book ID merging those two identical titles into a single book book ID making it a single entry in your Migration Status.
Also about royalties I keep reading about above. I thought when I initially purchased those resources, that the royalties were covered in the initial purchase. Am I to understand that while those were covered under all future upgrades of WORDsearch engine from the initial purchase, that because WORDsearch was sold to Logos that under your software that the Royalties have to be paid again even though they were paid with my initial purchase. While you did not say so, it sounds like you are suggesting under Logos ownership, that as you generously are granting us the same access to those same resources we purchased in WORDsearch that you also have to pay an additional royalty at your expense for each book you grant us on your platform? If the initial purchase with WORDsearch covered the royalty, and if you do not have to pay a duplicate royalty after the initial purchase royalty, then why would you make it an issue, unless you have to pay a second royalty, which in such a case that again boils down to the money and sounds like Logos is not wanting to pay as much as they would have without removing those resources and this was an excuse to save money. So does Logos have to pay a second royalty for each book we purchased?
And on a second note. For the record no other vendor activated any of my books as you suggested might be the case. All were activated via the WS software, not by any third party, which I understand used to be done with earlier Logos versions. They were all activated either by CDs that Synchronized Ownership with the WS server, or purchases from the Online Store, or Step Books which when found were also added separately to the Store Purchases. I agree with what someone earlier said, that we are being punished because a flaw in WORDsearch processing that did not add our CDs which were synchronized Ownership with their Server to their Online Bookstore the same way that our STEP books found were added to their Online Store. Had WORDsearch recorded those CDs the same way they did the STEP books in their online store, this would NOT be an issue now, but because of their failure to properly process records, I am being punished because of their shortsightedness, because they could not foresee this transition happening, or this omission being an issue later.
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Ricky Daugherty said:
That is where you are mistaken. WORDsearch did in fact have dynamic pricing.
I stand corrected; thanks for the update.
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John Simpson said:Ricky Daugherty said:
Some other Christian Websites which have forums, I have seen several hundred people complaining they lost several thousand books from their WS libraries
Could you point us to those forums? I'd be interested in seeing the comments. I have not had any issues with my large library, but I was careful to contact Wordsearch a few years ago when Bibleworks folded to make sure all my purchases were recorded. There were many books I had gotten from serial number unlock or CD that had not been automatically registered to my account.
Please let me clarify 2 missing words in my quote above, what should have said:
"... I have seen several hundred posts of people complaining..." My mistake. I am getting real old and my mind does not work like it used to plus my eyes are bad.
There were so many comments I assumed it was more than 100 comments, but there was a lot of replies and counter replies from the same people. I did not mean to say hundreds of people since I do not know how many, but there were a lot of posts from some of the same people with others comments about what they heard.
And a lot of them went to Accordance and leaving Logos. Even I purchased on a payment plan their Accordance Crossover from WORDsearch, and will be paying for that another 10 months. But if they did not post anything on Accordance, that means they must be happy with that platform.
I am not sure, but some of those may have been posted on some of those Conspiracy websites that have a lot of Christian Discussions there. Really do not remember. What I remember was my shock reading what some said that Logos said to them. It is possible one of those Conspiracy Websites fueled the seed from all the facts I read to highly suspect motives from what I have suggested Logos is doing and why. I read a lot of shocking facts and those disturbed me.
Also I never was notified by Logos what happened and had to read it there first. After reading what others said Logos told them I had to contact Logos myself, and the first time received no reply. The next message to Logos they said their files said they already resolved that, but believe they were thinking I was talking about my Logos 8 Full Features Set that they completely removed from my account while I was still on a payment plan for that. My next message I had to clarify that I was talking about missing WORDsearch resources, and while they never answered my message about my Logos 8 Full Features Set, I acknowledged that had since been restored. That is when Logos finally informed me that I had to provide proof of purchase for missing items, but they failed to inform me what and why they removed those resources.
In fact, I have never been contacted by Logos, Faithlife, or WORDsearch ever about the problems we are discussing here. Logos silence only adds fuel to the fire for suspicion and speculation on my part. Why the secrecy and why do they refuse to declare to us exactly what happened and why? Piece meal bits and pieces here fall short of a proper notice of action and why. Maybe after what others said Logos accused them of, they put on the brakes in order to prevent any future charges for slander and liable. After what I read, I would have put a stop to my employees making such unfounded charges. I will guess Logos was only guessing about some of what they suggested to those guys of, but their quotes made it sound like they were making some serious charges and accusations, like calling them pirates, which caused such users to go ballistic with Customer Service after making those charges. They never said that to me and I would admit, that would get me pretty upset if they had. I try to be a person of Christian integrity and resent suggestions otherwise. Some forget the Scriptures call for Two or Three witnesses to establish such things. But I suspect they were told to stop making those accusations. Plus the Bible says who the accuser of the brethren is.
That said, I will guess those may have been on a Conspiracy website that also took me to other sites to see more.
Again I am sorry I can not point you to those sources. So maybe you need to look for Conspiracy websites that have a forum.
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... That's why we're asking for proof of purchase. ...
I started spending endless hours looking for receipts that old. I already have on record with WORDsearch that I had a house fire that took out two rooms with older CDs and may have had some receipts lost in that fire. In fact a PDF of my email to WORDsearch and that WORDsearch reply I quoted above, was emailed to Logos who has that in their message queue with my receipts they are not responding to.
I have 4 blocked arteries, and the Surgeon refused to do the triple bypass because I could not afford to go into a nursing home for recovery, because I have bills to pay. That really stressed me out spending endless hours tying to climb into the attic to see what I could find in about 80 boxes of stuff. Unlike most folks, I always kept records, and I did find several receipts but not all, as I fear many were destroyed in that fire. As soon as I realized your people were ignoring the receipts I provided, I gave up looking for more until you honor your promise to restore the ones I provided proof for.
The oldest receipt I found was dated 2009, and others still in my Logos account I found but you do not need those receipts dated back as far as 1996. As I pointed out above, those older CDs were in STEP format and were added to the Online Bookstore because that was required to invoke the conversion from STEP format to the newer WORDsearch format. However, the later CDs that were not STEP format, did not require that conversion, and ergo WORDsearch did not add those to the online store, because it was not required, and that is where you are punishing us with an unrealistic expectation, because of WORDsearch failure to record later CDs in their bookstore the same way they added the STEP books to the online books store. In short your are punishing me for WORDsearch software designers oversight, that would have protected us and eliminated the questions you have today. So because of their faulty programming you pass the punishment for their oversight on to us. In other words, you are punishing us for WS poor record keeping process in their software.
It is totally unreasonable for you folks to expect average people to provide receipts that could go back as far as 20 years. Many people do not keep receipts, and many would not keep receipts that far back. But as I said, I keep all records, even though my storage system is not organized and hard to get to. Except for what was destroyed in that fire, I should have the rest, but that is an unreasonable burden to place on anyone.
How many people do you know that would keep receipts of everything, especially going back 20 years? That is an unrealistic and unreasonable hardship, and as I said before it has the appearance of someone taking advantage of that fact that they knew such was unrealistic, and with all the quotes of others saying Logos said they would resell them items they already purchases, the evidence is not convincing there was not an ulterior motive behind the push to request receipts, especially if WORDsearch already honored those purchases. Tie that to the fact that after providing receipts, I still have not had restored some of those resources you have proof for. The evidence does not appear to support Logos thus far.
While I respect you say you need those proofs, I have to question if there is another motive for such request when WORDsearch already honored those ownerships, which you yourself said they will still honor on their platform.
And supposing you do start to restore the CDs I provided proof for, what about those that may have been destroyed in that 2014 fire and will not be able to find later? Sorry Charley! That just is not right. And all those who do not keep receipts for anything? Sorry Charley! That just is not right, fair or honest.
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Ricky Daugherty said:
The reason I dispute your 7,055 count is first of all I only have 4004 resources in WORDsearch.
I understand you're disputing this figure, but you're making my point.
What we have is the data we got from LifeWay. In that data, you have 7,055 "self reported" CROSS IDs. 6,298 of these are distinct from the 2,268 CROSS IDs you own in the Sales Database.
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It's the count of records on your account in the LifeWay database.
I have been thinking about this and it is becoming clear, that just as you did not understand that WORDsearch did do dynamic pricing, I think you also fail to understand the data and how that was processed.
I am going to guess that others like this were older users that have updated their library to several different computer over the years. I know for a fact from my own reinstalls, that every time I reinstalled on a new PC and restored my backups of my licenses, it would always say Synchronizing Ownership, but copying those files fresh to the WORDsearch website. Over the years I have installed various versions of WS on many different PCs and each time I restored the licenses, you would see it was copying those licenses to the WORDsearch website even though they were already on file. A smarter programmer would have reconciled those duplicates each time they were added and turn them into a single record, rather than leaving them repeated several times over, but guessing the programmer simply left them and skip dups when processing those. The only way you can have record counts greater than those resources we find in our library is if those restores are copying duplicate records to the WORDsearch website every time a restore is done, again and again and again each time those restores are done. I suspect the prior Owner of WORDsearch before Lifeway purchased them knew that and simply eliminated duplicates when processing what we have in our library, but failed to remove those duplicates from their database. I am guessing you are looking at raw data that has all those duplicates of licenses we already had in our account, and if you remove all the duplicates, you should get counts closer to what I stated. Just because you see the licenses for items we purchased repeatedly listed in your count, does not mean there is anything wrong, but only that the programmers of WORDsearch took those subsequent restores creating duplicate licenses and simply skipped the dups when loading our library for our use. I can find no other logic to explain how you can come up with such an inflated count unless you are including Duplicate Synced Licenses. The only way to know for sure is remove all the duplicates which is what I believe your Migration Status did where you provided much more realistic counts, so if you are counted duplicated syncs which could be repeated as many as 10 times for some items restored, then I am guessing should you reduce all duplicates to a single record for each you will get a much lower count.
So it sounds like you are taking actions and making conclusions about a process someone else created that you simply do not fully understand.
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Ricky Daugherty said:
I am guessing you are looking at raw data that has all those duplicates of licenses we already had in our account, and if you remove all the duplicates, you should get counts closer to what I stated.
Your guess is wrong.
What we have is the data we got from LifeWay. In that data, you have 7,055 "self reported" CROSS IDs. 6,298 of these are distinct from the 2,268 CROSS IDs you own in the Sales Database.
I might not have made it clear that the numbers I reported earlier are all unique counts. Of course we de-duplicated the data.
Ricky Daugherty said:So it sounds like you are taking actions and making conclusions about a process someone else created that you simply do not fully understand.
You said it.
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Can you zip up and email any *.ulk files you have in C:\ProgramData\WORDsearch\Global Data? Send them to testing@faithlife.com.
I don't know if we can read those data files yet, but they may provide an additional data point that can help us reconcile the list of books you see in Wordsearch 12 with the list of self-reported unlocks in LifeWay's database.
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