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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 4 2022 9:56 AM

Mike Binks:

David Wanat:
I’d like to see Factbook become ”on demand” instead of being what pops up when I hit enter. 

I think one tends to 'demand' factbook by dint of pressing the enter key.

Perhaps the muscle memory could be retrained by 'blue-tac'ing an upturned drawing pin to the said key?

Well, I think we established the problem. Some of us don’t want it to do that. I’d much rather it defaul to search, where one of the results returned is factbook.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 4 2022 11:01 AM

David Wanat:
I’d like to see Factbook become ”on demand” instead of being what pops up when I hit enter. 

Hitting the enter key is "on demand" Wink However, there have been a number of times in the forums where people have asked for a change in the order of options so that if one types a complete and unambiguous command in the command box, that command becomes the top option e.g. Make Lookup command work exactly like Look Up (again) | Faithlife Faithlife is consistent in the behavior of its select boxes - when the user does not actually make a selection from the list, it is assumed that the first item in the list is intended.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 4 2022 11:05 AM

David Wanat:
Well, I think we established the problem. Some of us don’t want it to do that. I’d much rather it defaul to search,

Ouch! that would drive users like myself nuts - I rarely if ever start a search from the Command line. I would want it to default to Open. Because the priority of options is based on the users' historical use, the current implementation should prioritize search for you and resources (open) for me. I would also find it disruptive to lose consistency in how select lists work in Logos.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1452
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 4 2022 11:05 AM

MJ. Smith:

David Wanat:
I’d like to see Factbook become ”on demand” instead of being what pops up when I hit enter. 

Hitting the enter key is "on demand" Wink However, there have been a number of times in the forums where people have asked for a change in the order of options so that if one types a complete and unambiguous command in the command box, that command becomes the top option e.g. Make Lookup command work exactly like Look Up (again) | Faithlife Faithlife is consistent in the behavior of its select boxes - when the user does not actually make a selection from the list, it is assumed that the first item in the list is intended.

Therein lies the problem. 

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xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 4 2022 1:52 PM

MJ. Smith:

David Wanat:
Well, I think we established the problem. Some of us don’t want it to do that. I’d much rather it defaul to search,

Ouch! that would drive users like myself nuts - I rarely if ever start a search from the Command line. I would want it to default to Open. Because the priority of options is based on the users' historical use, the current implementation should prioritize search for you and resources (open) for me. I would also find it disruptive to lose consistency in how select lists work in Logos.

MJ...,  at the least Logos could set up an option so that us users can choose.

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 1452
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 4 2022 4:23 PM

xnman:

MJ. Smith:

David Wanat:
Well, I think we established the problem. Some of us don’t want it to do that. I’d much rather it defaul to search,

Ouch! that would drive users like myself nuts - I rarely if ever start a search from the Command line. I would want it to default to Open. Because the priority of options is based on the users' historical use, the current implementation should prioritize search for you and resources (open) for me. I would also find it disruptive to lose consistency in how select lists work in Logos.

MJ...,  at the least Logos could set up an option so that us users can choose.

Yes. If the Factbook gets better, I might grow to like it. But I don’t at the moment. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 4 2022 7:37 PM

xnman:
at the least Logos could set up an option so that us users can choose.

There are two viable options - (1) suggest an alternative to selecting the first item based on user history (current behavior) - an alternative that will consistently provide better results or (2) use the selection list as a selection list and don't hit enter until you see what you are entering. I find the second option the quickest to implement even if it has a high failure rate when I am doing repetitive work.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1206
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 5 2022 10:52 AM

MJ. Smith:

xnman:
at the least Logos could set up an option so that us users can choose.

There are two viable options - (1) suggest an alternative to selecting the first item based on user history (current behavior) - an alternative that will consistently provide better results or (2) use the selection list as a selection list and don't hit enter until you see what you are entering. I find the second option the quickest to implement even if it has a high failure rate when I am doing repetitive work.

Best option is to be able to "turn it off".... which I would promptly do. And you could leave it on for you....

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 5 2022 11:12 AM

xnman:
Best option is to be able to "turn it off".

There is nothing to turn off - there is a only a choice as to what to do when the user hits enter before selecting an action from the selection list. However, I am sure that if I took you suggestion to mean "turn the computer off", the users would quickly learn to wait until they selected a command before hitting enter Devil Seriously, I am sympathetic to your cause in that I often hit enter too quickly myself.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1206
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 6 2022 10:53 AM

MJ. Smith:

xnman:
Best option is to be able to "turn it off".

There is nothing to turn off - there is a only a choice as to what to do when the user hits enter before selecting an action from the selection list. However, I am sure that if I took you suggestion to mean "turn the computer off", the users would quickly learn to wait until they selected a command before hitting enter Geeked Seriously, I am sympathetic to your cause in that I often hit enter too quickly myself.

Not so.... I meant a way in Settings to turn Factbook off.... Which I would promptly do! ... Geeked

It is hard, I think, for people to see that not everyone thinks like they do.  If you love "Factbook" so be it.... Let you "turn on" Factbook and use it like you do.... but .... I don't want it that way.... why not have a choice?

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 6 2022 10:56 AM

xnman:
Not so.... I meant a way in Settings to turn Factbook off.... Which I would promptly do! ... Geeked

I'll support that only after I can turn Strong's off.Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1206
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 6 2022 11:21 AM

MJ. Smith:

xnman:
Not so.... I meant a way in Settings to turn Factbook off.... Which I would promptly do! ... Geeked

I'll support that only after I can turn Strong's off.Smile

Ok... Now we're getting somewhere.... I'll ask for 2 new choices in Settings..... 1 for Strongs and 1 for Factbook.  I love it when great minds can agree.... lol 

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 6 2022 1:19 PM

xnman:
I think this is a deterrent to Logos.... really. 

I think you meant "detriment"? Unless you meant "deterrent for using Logos"?

"God commands you to pray, but He forbids you to worry." - The Curé d'Ars.

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xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 7 2022 7:04 AM

SineNomine:

xnman:
I think this is a deterrent to Logos.... really. 

I think you meant "detriment"? Unless you meant "deterrent for using Logos"?

I did mean "a deterrent for using Logos." I am one that doesn't like things or functions "forced" on me.... like Factbook is... If FL is going down this road... then I probably will not be spending any more money in Logos.... I hope FL is better than that.

I am one also that believes wholeheartedly that Search is much to sophisticated that it really cannot do simple things... And because of that, I believe there is a better way...

In a Bible program, such as Logos, Search becomes one of the main functions in the program... I am convinced by looking at how many times people ask for help with search... and how many complaints about search that I have seen in the forums.... and how many times I have to actually "jump thru hoops" just to find information I am looking for.... that something is wrong with Search in Logos. What good is it to have all the resources one can have and not be able to find the information they want that is in one of those resources?

When I can go to other search engines... i.e. WordSearch, Google, or others...  and find things I am looking for "almost" in the blink of an eye... then that helps me to stay focused on what I am studying.... but when I try the same search in Logos Search.... then try again a different way...or have to reword my search a couple of times or ask for help on the forums....  all that changes my focus to learning how Logos wants me to search instead of doing my Bible study.... That I don't appreciate. 

So.... Yes... I think these things are and are becoming more so... a deterrent to using Logos. 

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 2552
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 7 2022 7:57 AM

One person's deterrent is another person's incentive. Thankfully, such decisions aren't left up to only one person. Thankfully, we all have a voice in the matter. It's all good.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 7 2022 9:54 AM

xnman:
When I can go to other search engines... i.e. WordSearch, Google, or others...  and find things I am looking for "almost" in the blink of an eye... then that helps me to stay focused on what I am studying.... but when I try the same search in Logos Search.... then try again a different way...or have to reword my search a couple of times or ask for help on the forums....  all that changes my focus to learning how Logos wants me to search instead of doing my Bible study.... That I don't appreciate.

The questions I use Google to ask, I often have to scan through several pages of results to get to any relevant results ... and I often have to tell it multiple times to get it to do what I ask rather than auto-correct to something I don't want. I have better luck with Google scholar. Why? because I ask Google unusual questions while it is optimized for common questions. But try to find the name of the Russian/Siberian sect that accepts only the book of Revelation as scripture. I know it's there but I can't find it again. Or the small group of Jews more closely related to Beta Israel than Sephardic Jews in Western Africa. Or examples of Christian texts known to be available in Sogdian. Such questions I don't ask of Logos/Verbum. However, in Logos/Verbum, I know "exhaustively" what search elements are available, what elements I find useful (or not), and with the exception of the Syntax search which I rarely use (or need), I can quickly get my results and begin to use them. Yes, Logos/Verbum searches take time to master - but they only require a few key concepts to understand. Most of mastery involves learning to think through what one actually wants and fitting it into the available elements and not wasting time on searches for which the cleanest results are already available in the guides or factbook.

My point: use the tool that is appropriate for your task - Google, Scholar Google, Factbook, guides, search ...and recognize that the task is always easier with the right tools.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 103
Matt Doebler | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 7 2022 10:16 AM

I hear what you're saying...but I think comparing a google search to a Logos search is a bit of a false analogy.  Google is an algorithm based search engine that attempts to direct you toward particular results based on a host of factors (most of which has nothing to do with your search terms).  It only seems easy because Google has gotten so good at convincing you that the first page of results contains all the info you need--i.e., Google search trains users to be lazy researchers.  Logos search, on the other hand, is a sophisticated research tool that exists for the sole purpose of making your library more accessible.  Thus, to a certain extent, you have to know your library in order to make the most out of Logos searching.  Furthermore, you have to become acquainted with the various types of searching that Logos can perform--not to mention familiar with the language of searching.  While there is a learning curve to this (including the time needed to become properly acquainted with one's library), the power of the Logos search tool is infinitesimally superior to Google in every way.  The problem is that many Logos users want to use the search tool like they use Google, i.e., to find a bible reference or complete a partially known quote.  Yet, this ignores the actual intended usage of the search tool and leads to the erroneous conclusion that Logos needs to "dumb down" the search tool.  Yet, the search tool is capable of performing tasks that Google can only dream about (e.g., try getting Google to show you every instance where the Hebrew lemma ידע is used in the Qal conjugation in a 3SM form.)  The bottom line is that good research takes time--and it requires training and regular practice.  Yet, it is precisely the capability of Logos search to facilitate quality research that makes it distinct and valuable.  

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xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 7 2022 11:21 AM

MJ and Mat Doebler...

I appreciate your comments and thanks. I didn't "grow up with Logos" and I think therein is my problem. I openly admit it's my problem....  it's just that I keep seeing on forums and such ... questions about how to do such and such in Search... which makes me think... I'm not alone...

I take heart also because Mike Barns opened up a forum about Search... I think there were some good suggestions in there... 

I'm not trying to be mean... just trying to point out what I see is a big problem. 

Thanks again.

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Posts 1452
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 7 2022 11:39 AM

xnman:

MJ and Mat Doebler...

I appreciate your comments and thanks. I didn't "grow up with Logos" and I think therein is my problem. I openly admit it's my problem....  it's just that I keep seeing on forums and such ... questions about how to do such and such in Search... which makes me think... I'm not alone...

I take heart also because Mike Barns opened up a forum about Search... I think there were some good suggestions in there... 

I'm not trying to be mean... just trying to point out what I see is a big problem. 

Thanks again.

You’re definitely not alone. Ive been using it since it was Libronix. I probably don’t know how to use it as effectively as the other contributors to the thread. But I think the original problem of defaulting to a frequently useless Factbook needs to be addressed, whether it’s a change of default or an option to choose that default. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 7 2022 11:40 AM

xnman:
questions about how to do such and such in Search... which makes me think... I'm not alone...

Many of the questions are for very complex searches where even defining what one wants is difficult. No matter how simple the interface to the search is, these questions will continue to show up on the forums until we are all proficient in all applicable languages. This is to manage your expectations - we will continue to see many search questions on the forums even if all the relevant suggestions Mark Barnes got are implemented.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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