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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 7 2022 11:54 AM

David Wanat:
But I think the original problem of defaulting to a frequently useless Factbook needs to be addressed, whether it’s a change of default or an option to choose that default. 

CryingCrying Okay, I surrender, give up, raise the white flag, concede defeat ...  for one last time "default" doesn't apply to factbook. The objectionable behavior is caused by hitting enter before selecting an item from the select list which is equivalent to selecting the top item - standard behavior of selection lists throughout Logos. I agree that when one has entered a complete, unambiguous command, that command should be the first command in the select list and therefore give the expected behavior.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 7 2022 7:08 PM

And our problem still remains Wink

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2022 12:34 AM

David Wanat:

And our problem still remains Wink

And it will until the older generation of instinctive 'Enter' hitters has died off and my generation (trained to observe before smacking a key) takes over. Seeing as I am in my mid 8th decade it won't be too long.

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

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xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2022 3:08 AM

I think the "hit enter people" are just being stubborn and trying to help FL "push" Factbook down our throats.... Big Smile

I  don't understand the argument for keeping Factbook as the default action when hitting enter....  What is wrong with ... when I type something in the "Go Box" or in Search.... what is wrong with expecting Search to answer INSTEAD of Factbook??

Especially when Factbook doesn't have anything to say that contributes very little or anything at all to the solution of what I am looking for..... Then I have close Factbook.... and then continue on.... That is "Make work interruptus"....  

Set a setting in Settings  ....  "Use Factbook ...  Yes No" and let both parties be happy... Why not???

And I can turn it to "No" and be happy.... and you can leave it on "Yes" and be happy.... WOW!! (smacks forehead) ..... what a novel idea.....  Geeked    lol     And .... not one would have to concede defeat... Wilted Flower

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Barney Fife is my hero!

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xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2022 3:14 AM

And a second item....   why have a "selected list" when I want to search something??  I think that is a problem with Search....  

So... I type in a "search request" that doesn't fit FL designated "search list" .... what happens?

My thought on this is....  besides having to close Factbook... which I seem to always have to do... then FL tries to fit my search request into their "selected list" of pre-concluded selections.... and thus.... get some kind of answer that is far fetched from what I am looking for..... and then  I have to go about having to try to figure out the hieroglyphics that FL wants me to jump through to finally get an answer that might not even be close to what I'm looking for. 

As you can see....  I don't understand Search... I admit that... and I do think Search could be and will be better once we get over this notion that we have to "Jump through the hoops of all the hieroglyphics" in order to find anything.... I don't have to with other search engines.... hint! hint! hint!

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Barney Fife is my hero!

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2022 6:16 AM

xnman:
I  don't understand the argument for keeping Factbook as the default action when hitting enter.... 

I think you may have a hit on a solution here.

The obvious thing is that if a selection from the list is necessary then hitting 'Enter' should bring up a box. HHG2TG style...

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

Posts 1262
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2022 6:19 AM

Mike Binks:

xnman:
I  don't understand the argument for keeping Factbook as the default action when hitting enter.... 

I think you may have a hit on a solution here.

The obvious thing is that if a selection from the list is necessary then hitting 'Enter' should bring up a box. HHG2TG style...

My friend from across the pond.... I think we are on to something!  Geeked

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Barney Fife is my hero!

Posts 1636
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2022 6:58 AM

xnman:

Mike Binks:

xnman:
I  don't understand the argument for keeping Factbook as the default action when hitting enter.... 

I think you may have a hit on a solution here.

The obvious thing is that if a selection from the list is necessary then hitting 'Enter' should bring up a box. HHG2TG style...

My friend from across the pond.... I think we are on to something!  Geeked

I'd think, just put that box as a result of clicking on the Factbook icon!  I hope I didn't upset the Factbook'ers.

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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2022 7:02 AM

Mike Binks:

David Wanat:

And our problem still remains Wink

And it will until the older generation of instinctive 'Enter' hitters has died off and my generation (trained to observe before smacking a key) takes over. Seeing as I am in my mid 8th decade it won't be too long.

This is all lighthearted, of course.

In all fairness, Logos changed how things always worked. Those of us who used it since it was Libronix expect things to continue to work that way. So, why object to a toggle switch?

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Andrew Batishko | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2022 7:22 AM

xnman:
I  don't understand the argument for keeping Factbook as the default action when hitting enter....  What is wrong with ... when I type something in the "Go Box" or in Search.... what is wrong with expecting Search to answer INSTEAD of Factbook??

The command box ("Go Box") at the top of the window was never designed as primarily a search box. In fact, in the past it was heavily pushed as a gateway to the Passage Guide. It was designed as a command box that gives you access to all parts of the program. It was also never intended that a user would type something and blindly hit enter before seeing what showed up in the list.

That said, if you know you want to search, then rather than hitting "enter", you should be hitting "shift-enter", which will always run the search. You can safely hit that without viewing the list of suggestions that pops up. There are some other search options as well with hotkeys (you can see the hotkey at the bottom of the list of suggestions) that are also safe to use without first checking to see what else shows up in the list.

As far as Factbook showing up in the search panel. You should be able to collapse that section, and it should stay collapsed so that it doesn't get in your way.

xnman:
And a second item....   why have a "selected list" when I want to search something??  I think that is a problem with Search....  So... I type in a "search request" that doesn't fit FL designated "search list" .... what happens?

If I'm understand correctly what you are saying, I think you are objecting to the fact that in the search panel, you type something and see a selection of suggested items in the list that doesn't match what you want.

The suggestion box in the Search panel is different than the command box ("Go Box"). In the search panel, the suggestions are doing their best to help you with the syntax by trying to guess what terms you are trying to search for. You can certainly ignore the suggestions, but it is drawing the suggestions from the list of what Faithlife has tagged. If you can't find what you are looking for, then either it hasn't been tagged, or you and Faithlife have a disagreement on the name of what has been tagged.

One of the easiest ways to find the exact syntax for a search is to find an example in a resource of what you want to search. Then right click on it and find the thing you are interested in on the left side of the popup. Then from the right you can start a search. That will usually give you the desired syntax. If you are needing a more complicated search, you can do this for multiple terms and combine them in a single search as needed.

Andrew Batishko | Faithlife software developer

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2022 8:01 AM

Andrew Batishko:

The command box ("Go Box") at the top of the window was never designed as primarily a search box. In fact, in the past it was heavily pushed as a gateway to the Passage Guide. It was designed as a command box that gives you access to all parts of the program. It was also never intended that a user would type something and blindly hit enter before seeing what showed up in the list.

I think you identified the cultural problem. Users see software as a solution ... not a design to be battled. Staff see users as not correctly following the design. 

Then, there's 'customers'.

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Andrew Batishko | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2022 8:12 AM

DMB:

I think you identified the cultural problem. Users see software as a solution ... not a design to be battled. Staff see users as not correctly following the design. 

Then, there's 'customers'.

You might be misunderstanding me or reading too much into what I'm saying.

I'm intentionally trying not to make any comments about "what should be", or "what might be", or "what could be". Instead, I'm trying to explain "what is" (and a little bit of the history of why it is that way) in an effort to help a customer get a handle on how to better use the software as it is today.

It's not my role to participate in a discussion here about what changes would be best for the future.

Andrew Batishko | Faithlife software developer

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2022 8:40 AM

Andrew Batishko:

It's not my role to participate in a discussion here about what changes would be best for the future.

And I should be clear ... your comments are appreciated. And well expressed. I use the word 'staff' as the participants back at Bellingham. I used to manage software design for a 70k employee company. 'Staff' was mine, and perspective always a challenge.

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Andrew Batishko | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2022 8:58 AM

DMB:
And I should be clear ... your comments are appreciated. And well expressed. I use the word 'staff' as the participants back at Bellingham. I used to manage software design for a 70k employee company. 'Staff' was mine, and perspective always a challenge.

Thanks for your perspective, DMB.

Andrew Batishko | Faithlife software developer

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2022 9:40 AM

Andrew Batishko:
That said, if you know you want to search, then rather than hitting "enter", you should be hitting "shift-enter", which will always run the search. You can safely hit that without viewing the list of suggestions that pops up. There are some other search options as well with hotkeys (you can see the hotkey at the bottom of the list of suggestions) that are also safe to use without first checking to see what else shows up in the list.

Thank you, Andrew, for stepping in. The shift-enter suggestion is a good one for me to add to my list of answers for the forums.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Old Bonsai | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2022 11:39 AM

David Taylor Jr:

Jerry Bush:
Have not been chosen since then.
Some sort of Logos Calvinism?

Totally Dependent Users

Unending Tagging

Limited Betas

Irresistible Purchases

Playful Forum threads

LOL I just saw this and nearly choked on my oatmeal. Yes

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xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2022 12:01 PM

I also appreciate your comments Andrew... Thanks.

I will say... I think..  the Search in Logos will eventually get "fixed"...  

Edit...   So I enter "bronze serpent" in the Go box and press "Shift Enter" and I get Factbook.... hmmm  I'm a thinking I am not understanding .....

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Barney Fife is my hero!

Posts 36312
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2022 12:17 PM

xnman:
So I enter "bronze serpent" in the Go box and press "Shift Enter" and I get Factbook...

shift+enter brings up a search for me. Did you try to enter them simultaneously, rather than shift-hold-enter? If so, your enter finger was faster than your shift finger.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1262
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2022 3:29 PM

MJ. Smith:

xnman:
So I enter "bronze serpent" in the Go box and press "Shift Enter" and I get Factbook...

shift+enter brings up a search for me. Did you try to enter them simultaneously, rather than shift-hold-enter? If so, your enter finger was faster than your shift finger.

Yeppers.... that was the secret! Thanks...  Well... I spoke too soon....  so I typed bronze serpent (no quotes) held shift down....then pressed enter... up jumps Factbook...    So I says "Self, you gotta get this...cause MJ done said..."   So I tried "bronze serpent" with quotes... and low and behold.... I'm consistent I still get Factbook... 

Is there some setting somewhere in Settings that would make a difference?

I think I already made Factbook mad at me and now it's out to get me.... lol.  Geeked

Sorry... found the problem.... it was me.... I am too quick on the enter key...  sorry bout that....

xn = Christan  man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

Barney Fife is my hero!

Posts 1481
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 8 2022 3:52 PM

I was unaware of Shift + Enter. That’s good enough for me. Thanks for the tip.

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