What is the status of being able to import PDF and ePub into Logos?

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Posts 5
Scott Ross | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Nov 9 2020 9:03 AM

I see a post about this from 2014. It is 2020. I don't understand why it's possible to import a word doc (a proprietary format that fewer people are using by the day) but it's not possible to import a PDF or ePub document (a universal format). 

Posts 551
Liam Maguire | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2020 10:04 AM

IIRC my understanding is that there is regret in certain quarters of FL about allowing folk to import Word Docs as some user the system to import copyrighted materials (eg. Books) which are already available to purchase on the Logos platform. Understandably this practice could foreseeably get worse if importing pdf and epubs were allowed. Rumor has it that this may be the reason that personal books tool has not been updated in some time. 

Carpe verbum.

Posts 2961
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2020 6:24 PM

Liam Maguire:

Rumor has it that this may be the reason that personal books tool has not been updated in some time. 

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/126859/848584.aspx#848584   

Posts 19594
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2020 6:49 PM

Scott Ross:
I don't understand why it's possible to import a word doc (a proprietary format that fewer people are using by the day) but it's not possible to import a PDF or ePub

Thread => Personal Books includes a link about PDF text extraction (can be quite problematic) along with two replies in Sep 2020 from a Faithlife developer. Noticed new Feedback site => https://feedback.faithlife.com does not have a PDF suggestion.

For ePub's, threads from 2016 & 2017 may be interesting => Epub Files and => E-books to Logos

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 8939
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2020 7:09 PM

There have been no plans for PDF imports, so no update needed.  Accordance has tried it and they are having issues with it because of the many formats “behind the scenes” in a PDF document.

I’m sure is a complicated issue, but hey, we’ve been able to live without it  👍😁👌

DAL

Posts 9181
LogosEmployee

Scott Ross:
I don't understand why it's possible to import a word doc (a proprietary format that fewer people are using by the day) but it's not possible to import a PDF or ePub document (a universal format). 

The "technical" answer is that it's much, much simpler to extract the text from a DOCX file (which is based on XML, an open standard), than a PDF file. This article is a great overview of some of the many problems you will encounter when attempting to do so: https://filingdb.com/b/pdf-text-extraction 

Posts 611
Gregory Lawhorn | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2020 5:13 AM

Liam Maguire:

IIRC my understanding is that there is regret in certain quarters of FL about allowing folk to import Word Docs as some user the system to import copyrighted materials (eg. Books) which are already available to purchase on the Logos platform. Understandably this practice could foreseeably get worse if importing pdf and epubs were allowed. Rumor has it that this may be the reason that personal books tool has not been updated in some time. 

Yup. Faithlife doesn't make much money selling program upgrades; their profits come from content. I've given up making "personal books" and instead use Notebooks, which also allows for easier correction of typos. Now, if Faithlife decided to allow us to import PDFs or ePubs into Notes … 

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2020 5:37 AM

Liam Maguire:

IIRC my understanding is that there is regret in certain quarters of FL about allowing folk to import Word Docs as some user the system to import copyrighted materials (eg. Books) which are already available to purchase on the Logos platform. Understandably this practice could foreseeably get worse if importing pdf and epubs were allowed. Rumor has it that this may be the reason that personal books tool has not been updated in some time. 

Didn't Bob point out PBs were not that popular, as the basis for investing in other parts of the software?

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 9181
LogosEmployee

Denise:

Didn't Bob point out PBs were not that popular, as the basis for investing in other parts of the software?

Ehhh, who cares what the CEO actually wrote, when you can imagine a much more interesting reason behind it instead?

Posts 30484
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2020 6:42 AM

Denise:
Didn't Bob point out PBs were not that popular, as the basis for investing in other parts of the software?

The link David provided has all the juicy details. The TL;DR version: 

A very small but vocal minority of users use personal books at all. The vast majority of "personal" books aren't "personal." They are books which compete with Logos... some of which are still copyrighted and may be illegal or a "grey" area of legality. There isn't much reason for FL to pour too much effort into the feature, especially when it competes with their business model and imposes a real cost to the company financially (server space). 

macOS, iOS & iPadOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 2961
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2020 8:49 AM

JT (alabama24):
 A very small but vocal minority of users use personal books at all. The vast majority of "personal" books aren't "personal." 

That defines me: 348 PBBs to date.  And they are not books that I wrote. Sermons that we wrote were the original target of personal books.

JT (alabama24):
 They are books which compete with Logos... some of which are still copyrighted and may be illegal or a "grey" area of legality. 
 

As the stated goal of FL is to bring every religious writing into Logos: that goal covers most of what is imported as a PBB.  Some of what I entered were from religious publishers now long out of business. [But, under "fair use" I refuse to share any.  And their reader no longer works on a WIn 10 PC]  BUT with logos 9 not one of the PBBs that I have entered is for sale by FL;  When they publish one I will buy and remove the PBB. [unless your "church group" has 100,000 FL customers FL does not sell books that your "church group" wants. Your count of 15 FL customers get nothing as they do not pass the Pre-Pub nor Community Pricing test]  [I bought Silver 9 labeled for my  "church group". I got 7 books that my  "church group" would consider "ours".]  [[Note to FL: I did get value for my upgrades to Logos  9. I am just stating a point]] [[Please note that the Pre-Pub and  Community Pricing test keep FL in business]]

JT (alabama24):
 There isn't much reason for FL to pour too much effort into the feature, especially when it competes with their business model and imposes a real cost to the company financially (server space).  

I have two PCs that have Logos installed but I do not use UPLOAD.  With all that FL has said about PBB I wonder why they have the UPLOAD PBB function as it cost them server space.  [At some point they scanned the uploaded PBBs to see what had been entered as a PBB]

My thought on the Logos 9 Silver for my "church group" is that they took the 7 books that we wanted at about $80 Pre-Pub [But with no chance of passing the Pre-Pub test] and released them to get us to pay $200 for the Silver upgrade.   [[My thoughts on PBB is that it is one of the best features in Logos]]

Posts 5921
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2020 12:28 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
Ehhh, who cares what the CEO actually wrote, when you can imagine a much more interesting reason behind it instead?

Instant classic. Yes

Please use descriptive thread titles to attract helpful posts & not waste others' time. Thanks!

Posts 344
Pater Noster | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 11 2020 4:17 AM

There is MUCH that could be done to improve PBBs, in better editing/development capabilities, library management for those that have hundreds of PBBs, correction of long-standing bugs, security/privacy, etc. But I understand the worries about copyright/sharing etc.

I would take it in this direction - I would much rather see PBBs be unable to be shared at all with other users, removing any risk of copyright infringement etc., so that improvements to PBBs could be added. While no scheme would be fool proof, it could certainly be done in a way that if a violation occurred it would be clear the responsibility was a user in copyright violation, not Faithlife -it would have had to be done outside any of the tools or systems managed by Faithlife. It would also be a violation of forum rules to upload a PBB source File, and violators could be banned (that section of the forums would be eliminated). I too have a number of PBBs that I don't share but I wish were easier to build/use/manage.

Posts 8939
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 11 2020 4:35 AM

SineNomine:

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
Ehhh, who cares what the CEO actually wrote, when you can imagine a much more interesting reason behind it instead?

Instant classic. Yes

One of the rights in the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution = freedom of speech 👍😁👌

Posts 611
Gregory Lawhorn | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 11 2020 5:59 AM

JT (alabama24):

There isn't much reason for FL to pour too much effort into the feature, especially when it competes with their business model and imposes a real cost to the company financially (server space). 

I have a few dozen PB's, all of which are published books which Logos does not currently offer. On two occasions, I went through the trouble of digitizing printed books myself, because of the high value of those resources. If and when Logos offers those materials, I'll gladly purchase them. 

That being said, I have learned that PB's are not a very efficient way to manage digital resources, and more recently I've been creating a Notebook for a particular book, and individual notes as chapters in the book. Searching remains as solid as ever, I never have to recompile a book, or remove it and add it all over again. 

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