Dear Logos for the general user you've got it ass-backwards teaching understanding before use

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This post has 45 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 3073
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 8 2020 8:19 AM

MWW:
Have you ever thought of starting a Logos users group? 😜 I am sure there are more than a few here in the forums who are addicted and a Logos addiction can be costly. There are probably a number of Logos user spouses who would welcome an intervention.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 5419
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 8 2020 8:20 AM

Reid A Ferguson:
Not everything can be immediately obvious or intuitive.... Yes, a number of my pastoral friends find it somewhat overwhelming too. Which is why I looked at all the videos I could, and then went to camp Logos. Yes, it will mean serious effort and serious commitment.... The Bible itself will not yield up its riches with cursory readings and a failure to try and master it not only book by book, but as a whole.

But...but...but I was told that the Bible's message is so easy to comprehend that even a child can understand it. What is all this talk about "EFFORT"?? Sounds a whole lot like works righteousness to me. If it's not free and easy, it's from SATAN!!!

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, Asus Strix RTX 2080 ti, 2tb m.2 Seagate Firecuda SSD (x2) ...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 8 2020 8:37 AM

Reid A Ferguson:
OK - so put me in the "dumb" column.

I couldn't resist. Smile

And no to "you have to take time, etc, etc". Not if you want to sell. And for background, I write in 5 computer languages, have 4 Bible software platforms, and my own that does neural net and genetic analysis of the OL on the fly. And am a retired exec from a big-box retailer, where the operant success is customers purchasing, not 'learning your maze of a store' in hopes of Heaven-arrival.

Now, I'm not wishing to impress (I see that frown on your face .... smile), and most regular posters on the forum are even more expert (Graham and MJ obviously). 

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 43
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 8 2020 8:58 AM

How did the message of Jesus Christ ever survive without a deep, complex, massive, and internet based bible search program?  Perhaps FL design team could take a few pointers on complexity of use from the First Century approach to messaging. 

Posts 239
Reid A Ferguson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 8 2020 9:22 AM

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Good one!

Posts 5419
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 8 2020 9:35 AM

Rene Atchley:

How did the message of Jesus Christ ever survive without a deep, complex, massive, and internet based bible search program?  Perhaps FL design team could take a few pointers on complexity of use from the First Century approach to messaging. 

I understand the sentiment here, but when I spoke to Bill in person years back (over a decade now), I told him that I was pretty sure that Dan. 12:4 referred to Bible software generally, and Logos in particular. Nothing is likely to sway my perspective about that. How is a Book that is the most widely distributed in history "sealed and concealed" until the time of the end, and what unseals it? Keeping Prov. 25:2 in mind, it is simply that the ability to fully comprehend what YHWH is doing, "locked" as it is in prophetic language, can't be properly cracked and comprehended until the point in time when circumstances, including the phenomenon of digitally-enabled analysis and comparison, among other things, converge at the Providentially appointed time...our time. Does that perspective cast some shade on the church's historical understanding? Most certainly...which, of course, feeds the endtime narrative of the Unbelievable Work. Hard as what I'm suggesting may be to accept, all prophetic evidence supports what I'm saying. As unwilling as the church may be to accept that it is the entity being called out in Isa. 29 (those who both know and don't know the Book, yet are all equally incapable of properly explicating it), that unbelievable scenario is described throughout Scripture, though always in the cloudy language of prophecy. Point is...in Logos, people can "go to and fro" and have their knowledge increase. But even that digitally-opened door doesn't in itself open eyes. It's just one part of the endtime crescendo that results in the end of the famine of the hearing of the words of YHWH.

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, Asus Strix RTX 2080 ti, 2tb m.2 Seagate Firecuda SSD (x2) ...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Posts 371
Lonnie Spencer | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 8 2020 9:39 AM

Lonnie Spencer:

Great point M.J.!

As I was reading in one of my books last week, what difference does it make if you can do text comparison with a bunch of English bibles if you don't know what to do with that information?

The point I wanted to make and should have made was I believe Logos is good at the What and How. Thanks to the people in the forum, that comes in abundance. What Logos is short in is the Why question. Why would this X guide solve some bible mystery I didn't even know existed. The only resource I know that has come close to something like this is Mo Proctor's Inductive Camp Logos. Yes, I can usually learn how to run the programs sufficiently in Logos. And yes, I read the resources that help me to see what I should be asking in bible study. But getting the two together is a different story. Not everything in bible study needs another full blown inductive method. Maybe I'm expecting more out of the program then it can provide or I lack a curious bone to run down multiple rabbit trails for an elusive nugget of knowledge.

Posts 2
Petter Lewis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 8 2020 9:54 AM

I kind of agree with you, but also is true that the value of this foro is pretty high in those matters, and I guess if all the users we contribute more and more, the amount of answers for the WHY will increase significatively, but also it will be easier to get an answer from the community

Believe is more than a word or a concept, it is an entire way of seeing the live

Posts 43
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 8 2020 11:18 AM

David Paul:

Rene Atchley:

How did the message of Jesus Christ ever survive without a deep, complex, massive, and internet based bible search program?  Perhaps FL design team could take a few pointers on complexity of use from the First Century approach to messaging. 

I understand the sentiment here, but when I spoke to Bill in person years back (over a decade now), I told him that I was pretty sure that Dan. 12:4 referred to Bible software generally, and Logos in particular. Nothing is likely to sway my perspective about that. How is a Book that is the most widely distributed in history "sealed and concealed" until the time of the end, and what unseals it? Keeping Prov. 25:2 in mind, it is simply that the ability to fully comprehend what YHWH is doing, "locked" as it is in prophetic language, can't be properly cracked and comprehended until the point in time when circumstances, including the phenomenon of digitally-enabled analysis and comparison, among other things, converge at the Providentially appointed time...our time. Does that perspective cast some shade on the church's historical understanding? Most certainly...which, of course, feeds the endtime narrative of the Unbelievable Work. Hard as what I'm suggesting may be to accept, all prophetic evidence supports what I'm saying. As unwilling as the church may be to accept that it is the entity being called out in Isa. 29 (those who both know and don't know the Book, yet are all equally incapable of properly explicating it), that unbelievable scenario is described throughout Scripture, though always in the cloudy language of prophecy. Point is...in Logos, people can "go to and fro" and have their knowledge increase. But even that digitally-opened door doesn't in itself open eyes. It's just one part of the endtime crescendo that results in the end of the famine of the hearing of the words of YHWH.

Well if it refers to Logos I'm wondering which version of Logos and is their a preference for the particular faith tradition (or academic package) this is referring to...seems pretty obscure to me but I haven't done detail biblical studies for several years.

Posts 89
Ralph Wood | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 8 2020 11:56 AM

Reid A Ferguson:

...Which is why I looked at all the videos I could, and then went to camp Logos. Yes, it will mean serious effort and serious commitment. And yes, it is worth every moment.      

Agree completely.  There are mountains of videos that have helped me learn the nuts and bolts of Logos since I began this adventure nine years ago.  I think Logos has done an awesome job (especially in recent years) providing video training on how to use the tools.  However, I think that most training is 80% "how to" mechanics and 20% "where and when" application.  I'd like to see training where that ratio is reversed.  To use a crude comparison of an auto mechanic:  In addition to training that focuses on how to use an impact wrench, torque wrench, hose clamp pliers, etc., we (I) need training where the video shows the mechanic performing a functional task (replacing brakes, changing a tire, etc.) and it shows me which tools I need and when/where to use them.  

Bottom line: It's not an either / or, but a need for both types of training.  Maybe, the onus is not on FL but on users to help one another with the functional learning.  

Posts 5419
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 8 2020 11:57 AM

Rene Atchley:
Well if it refers to Logos I'm wondering which version of Logos and is their a preference for the particular faith tradition (or academic package) this is referring to...

It has more to do with the possibilities that digital enhancement provides, which is a feature available in all Logos base packages (and other digital Bible software, as well).  As far as "the particular faith tradition", they are all equally irrelevant. The Unbelievable Work ignores human constructs (for some, just another unbelievable aspect) and is entirely Book based.

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, Asus Strix RTX 2080 ti, 2tb m.2 Seagate Firecuda SSD (x2) ...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Posts 33261
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 8 2020 1:37 PM

Rene Atchley:
How did the message of Jesus Christ ever survive without a deep, complex, massive, and internet based bible search program? 

by having a deep, complex, massive, and internet neural network based bible search program i.e. the Bible was written in the human heart/brain/body through all the senses.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 5552
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 10 2020 7:16 PM

MJ, please correct me if I'm wrong:

I think the point of your initial post was not to request training materials for learning how to use Logos/Verbum.

I think it was for requesting training materials for learning how to study the Bible... using Logos/Verbum.

That's a very significant difference.

Posts 33261
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 10 2020 7:56 PM

SineNomine:
I think it was for requesting training materials for learning how to study the Bible... using Logos/Verbum.

Yes, you got it.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 27
Daniel Wurzberg | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 11 2020 2:36 AM

Same here...only using the free version...I would maybe pay for some features...but not when it comes in bundles only...funny how they price every feature individually, then give you a bulk discounted price for a package, but don't offer individual feature sales.

Not to add how they "value" their products...like the books are 1. prints done in Gutenbergs time...a collection of book bought individually would usually cost you $2.4B, but you can have it for only $999

Posts 33261
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 11 2020 2:46 AM

Welcome to the forums Daniel. Sorry to start off by disagreeing  with you but I would not like to see Faithlife spending the resources required to manage the licenses for individual features nor the complexity it would add to the code making it harder to test and more expensive to maintain. I understand why it would be appealing to the user, but as a user I don't want my money going to overhead rather than features and products. However, I do appreciate your stating your position in the forums and stick around to give more feedback.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 459
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 11 2020 5:54 AM

Reid A Ferguson---

Amen!   I'll give one illustration to what you said...  If one wants to know what God wants us to do to be saved.... then they have to search the Scriptures. God didn't put all of what it takes to be saved in one paragraph or in one sentence. Man has to seek God. God wants it that way.

Logos is an awesome tool to help man quickly and easily find what man is looking for. Yes there is a steep learning curve.... which is part of the seeking. Like anything else, man has to learn. And I agree again.... Logos is worth the learning.  IMHO.

And.... I'm one that thinks learning is some of the most exciting times ever! 

xn = Christan  man=man

Posts 136
1Cor10:31 | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 11 2020 6:23 AM

xnman:

Reid A Ferguson---

If one wants to know what God wants us to do to be saved.... then they have to search the Scriptures. God didn't put all of what it takes to be saved in one paragraph or in one sentence. Man has to seek God. God wants it that way.

I understand that this is venturing into a theological debate and this is not the right forum, but I see a little bit of it in this forum, so here is my 2c.

I respectfully disagree with the statement: “ If one wants to know what God wants us to do to be saved.... then they have to search the Scriptures.”

My starting point to understanding the mind of God is that my God ain’t stupid. He cannot ask people to believe in the Bible in order to believe in the God of the Bible.

 

I didn’t ask to be created. God created me and the rest of humanity. Why? To have a relationship with us. If so, He can’t hide. He has to make it easy for us to find Him. He is not trying to play the “Hot and Cold” game that we’ve played as kids (https://www.considerable.com/entertainment/games/hot-and-cold/).

 

How easy is it to know that God exists? Just look up. Why did he create such a massively complex world that scientists have barely understood? So that even people without education -- like my Mom who I don’t think graduated from high school, people who don’t know the thermodynamics truth (set by God) that mass can never be created nor destroyed -- can look up and say that there must be a God.

 

Once you know that God exists, how do we initiate a relationship with Him? It can’t be based on a quality that one possesses more compared to others. It has to be based on something that God has endowed us with equally. That’s the reason why all it takes is faith in order to initiate a relationship with God. He has endowed it equally to all.

 

But if we want to grow in the relationship, then it requires work on our part. Go read the Bible, the source of wisdom. The reason He makes us work to grow in our relationship is because we are better off (taking eternity into account) by growing in our relationship with God. He is not the loser if we don’t grow in our relationship with God. We are the losers.

Posts 33261
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 11 2020 11:17 AM

your understanding that your post and the one you replied to are inappropriate is correct.

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Please abide by the following guidelines as you interact on our forums.

  1. Please keep your discussions focused on Logos Bible Software: our software, products, websites, company, tools, etc.
  2. Please do not discuss or debate biblical, theological, or other controversial topics. Use one of the many web forums intended for these kinds of discussions.
  3. Please treat each other with the love, courtesy, respect, and kindness that you would if you were sitting in your living room together.
  4. Please do not use our forums to
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Thank you for your cooperation. Enjoy discussing and learning about Logos Bible Software.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 459
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 11 2020 11:24 AM

NDD ---

Appreciate your thoughts.... but... I don't think this is the place for the discussion as FL might frown on it ... but ... I'll encourage you to email me at xnman01@gmail.com and let's discuss this. I think it'll make for a good discussion. 

I would discuss it on the internet.... but don't know where to go to publicly discuss this. If you have an idea  let me know. I'm open.   

xn = Christan  man=man

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