FAITHLIFE IS MORE LIKE A BUSINESS

I agree with some of the forum readers, Faithlife is more after money, that spreading the word. Now where can I find a passage in the Bible where Jesus asked for money before he would preach or heal. They remind me of Microsoft, they have the monopoly and if you want to get something to help to prepare for a sermon, you need to pay.

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Sean

FaithLife, precisely, is a business. https://faithlife.com/about

Kevin A

Hi Liep, welcome to the forums.

Logos is really only as good as it is, because they charge for the features and resources. There is free software out there as an example which many people use happily, however in comparison with Logos, it has limited resources, and limited features, so I for one am glad that they do charge.

Also, Logos have payment plans as an option, also have you looked at https://connect.faithlife.com/ which has a subscription for features and some resources in Logos?

You are able to leave your investment to someone else when you retire from this world or earlier if you wish, for a small $20 fee, which I think is an amazing gift to leave someone.

It seems to me the investment in the software and features over a lifetime of ministry/study is very minimal per year.

MJ. Smith

I agree with some of the forum readers, Faithlife is more after money, that spreading the word. Now where can I find a passage in the Bible where Jesus asked for money before he would preach or heal. They remind me of Microsoft, they have the monopoly and if you want to get something to help to prepare for a sermon, you need to pay

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DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145522#Comment_1145522

You are correct! Faithlife is a business and if they didn’t sell they couldn’t produce the software nor its features 👍😁👌

Gregory Lawhorn

I agree with some of the forum readers, Faithlife is more after money, that spreading the word. Now where can I find a passage in the Bible where Jesus asked for money before he would preach or heal. They remind me of Microsoft, they have the monopoly and if you want to get something to help to prepare for a sermon, you need to pay.

I think it's sad that ANYONE thinks that Faithlife is a non-profit ministry. Of course they are a business! Do you think that Bob is a Bill-Gates billionaire, paying for all of this out of the goodness of his heart? Do you think that Faithlife's programmers, scholars, support people, etc., donate their free time on weekends? Good grief.

Besides, even if Faithlife WERE a ministry and not a business, they would still require – and deserve – financial support. You're right, Jesus never charged anyone. That same Jesus said that "the worker is worthy of his support." His apostle, Paul, said, "those who proclaim the Gospel should get their living from the Gospel" (First Corinthians 9:14), and "you shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain" and "the laborer deserves his wages." (First Timothy 5:18).

Mike Binks

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145540#Comment_1145540

That same Jesus said that "the worker is worthy of his support." His apostle, Paul, said, "those who proclaim the Gospel should get their living from the Gospel" (First Corinthians 9:14), and "you shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain" and "the laborer deserves his wages." (First Timothy 5:18).

Not to mention Hezekiah 2:30 'you shall not feed the Trolls for fear of unremitting evil assailing your head'

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145546#Comment_1145546

you shall not feed the Trolls

I suspect the 'troll' is FL Marketing ... it's that time of year. 'Oh, please! Disaster will strike and evil will assail your head, unless you spend your last farthing on the Logos 9! Did we mention what might occur without Logos 9 .... oh, good.'

For a company that markets itself as free software, each major upgrade has its marketing recipients crying out in pain ... money, money ... they demand my money!

Just like the famous tent-maker of Christian yore ... 'Yes, kind sir, last season's tent may well burn in a conflagration, unless you update to this season's unbelievable gorgeous tent with ALL these features (silver and above .. no bronze)!'

Bob Price

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145553#Comment_1145553

I'm surprised that this is even a question. Yes, of course FL is a business. There is no way in the world that all of these fantastic resources would just be given away. The software itself is a marvelous achievement--shouldn't those who worked so hard on it receive payment for their work? The fact is that FL does give away an amazing amount of stuff, for which I am very grateful. I have a huge library which did cost money, but not nearly as much as if I had purchased all these as physical books.

Try this: go to any bookstore that sells books in which you are interested. Go up to the clerk and ask him/her if you can just walk out with any books you like without paying. I'm guessing they will not agree to that. Does that make them bad people? No, because that's the business they're in, and they'd like to feed their families as well.

Faithlife has produced an amazing piece of software that enriches our lives in our study of God's Word. The free version alone is probably better than what you could have purchased only a few years ago. I am thankful for the number of resources that are available for free, but I certainly don't begrudge FL for attempting to make a profit. If you do, there's nothing forcing you to buy their products.

Jerry Bush

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145553#Comment_1145553

The OP troll only has one post, so...

Kevin S. Coy, OFS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145558#Comment_1145558

"If you do, there's nothing forcing you to buy their products."

[Y]

Mike Binks

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145553#Comment_1145553

I suspect the 'troll' is FL Marketing ... it's that time of year. 'Oh, please! Disaster will strike and evil will assail your head, unless you spend your last farthing on the Logos 9! Did we mention what might occur without Logos 9 .... oh, good.'

Aren't we all becoming a tetchy lot these days? Perhaps its being 'covid couped' that is fraying the ragged edges!

All marketing helps and hinders, and it all should be taken with a 'pinch of salt'.

For a company that markets itself as free software, each major upgrade has its marketing recipients crying out in pain ... money, money ... they demand my money!

Except that they don't demand more money. Some folk soldier on with L7 without parting with a single sou. Of course, they extol the benefits of us spending more and are light on telling us that nothing is lost by not doing so. I guess they would like to be able to pay off the mortgage and give their kids at least one decent meal a day (capitalist swine that they are).

For your pinch of biblical salt (guaranteed to be the same chemical composition as the condiment Lot's wife became) just send $10 and a square of blue paper - Your pinch of salt will be sent by return post.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145561#Comment_1145561

Aren't we all becoming a tetchy lot these days?

Probably where we part company, if indeed. 'Business' is ancient ... not a modern contraption meriting worship. If you go into akkadian, their rules of the road almost exactly match today's, 4,000 years later. And their expectations for being 'up-front' are ancient as well. The diety of the Israelites even got excited about it, later matched by a guy from Nazareth.

But modern Christianity is very quick to protect 'business', no matter the behavior. Why the need for the school-yard pile-on in this thread? Accusations of 'troll'??

David Wanat

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145566#Comment_1145566

But modern Christianity is very quick to protect 'business', no matter the behavior. Why the need for the school-yard pile-on in this thread? Accusations of 'troll'??

Speaking as someone who’s used it since it was Libronix, I think it’s an unjust accusation. Logos is professional software that provides invaluable tools for research. The price reflects that. I think a lot of critics who don’t know what it costs (labor, acquisition of rights) expect the company to sell the product at a price far below expenses. The thing is, one doesn’t have to buy the Gold or higher package. One doesn’t have to upgrade from 8 to 9. FL doesn’t break the product for those who won’t upgrade.

The accusation of being dishonest or deceptive certainly needs to be substantiated beyond grumbling about price. Yes, Faithlife is a business, not a charity. But thinking the accusation unjust ≠ “protecting business“ in an undiscerning justification

Bob Price

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145566#Comment_1145566

Probably where we part company, if indeed. 'Business' is ancient ... not a modern contraption meriting worship. If you go into akkadian, their rules of the road almost exactly match today's, 4,000 years later. And their expectations for being 'up-front' are ancient as well. The diety of the Israelites even got excited about it, later matched by a guy from Nazareth.

Denise,

Could you elaborate a bit on what you meant here? I'm sorry, but I don't think I follow what you're trying to say. Thanks!

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145572#Comment_1145572

Ooookaay.... Let's say I changed and went to the monthly route... would I get access to more books free? I understand I get more features... tell me true...

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145572#Comment_1145572

Could you elaborate a bit on what you meant here?

Well, in its simple form, 'Logos as a business' was of far greater importance above, than (probably) a Christian who is likely wound up, maybe got carried away, and would benefit from some pointers at FL's untrumpeted (by FL Marketing in the L9 roll-out) tendency to give Bible study material away for free.

Now, as regards Mr Binks who I admire, who normally would calm the gentleman down, and who is quite intelligent and educated, I compared the behavior and daily values of the worst known empire (utilized by the diety of the cosmos to literally obliterate Israel), to modern day Christianity's embrace of 'business-no-matter', suggesting the Assyrian (4,000 years ago) might be the superior.

Yes, I know all about business. But Christian priorites are compatable with making a profit.

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145575#Comment_1145575

But Christian priorites are compatable with making a profit.

Would you mind sharing what a Christian's priorities should be?

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145573#Comment_1145573

Let's say I changed and went to the monthly route... would I get access to more books free?

Faithlife Connect subscribers can get 3 free books per month (from a list of 5,721 books).

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145586#Comment_1145586

Thanks PetahChristian

John5796

I agree with some of the forum readers, Faithlife is more after money, that spreading the word. Now where can I find a passage in the Bible where Jesus asked for money before he would preach or heal. They remind me of Microsoft, they have the monopoly and if you want to get something to help to prepare for a sermon, you need to pay.

Simple solution as mentioned by another poster: don't buy it. I started back in 2008-2009 with Libronix and have never regretted it. And I am thankful to Logos/Faithlife for creating such a great tool to aid in my bible study.

Dan Lioy, Ph.D.

To which specific “forum readers” is the original poster referring? No one is identified.

The supposed equivalency between Faithlife as a business and Jesus as an itinerant first century AD rabbi is misleading and false. Jesus’ mission on earth was to redeem lost humanity. Faithlife’s corporate mission is “use technology to equip the Church to grow in the light of the Bible.”

The comparison between Faithlife and Microsoft is also misleading and false. Superficially, they are both tech companies. But their mission and purpose are entirely different.

Finally, there are plenty of free internet resources for those who want to do sermon preparation without needing to pay. So, once again, the original poster is putting forward a misleading and false assertion.

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145590#Comment_1145590

When I work in the yard... and I want a tool to help... I am willing to pay for that tool. So I go to a store and if I think the price of the tool there is too high... I exercise my right to not buy. But for me, it is a very slow process to dig a hole or ditch in my yard with just my hands. A tool such as a shovel is a very big help in getting the job done quicker and better.

I can sit around and grumble about how high the price of shovels are and never buy one... and spend all my time digging in the yard. Same with Bible study... I can buy the commentaries and study books and such and pay the price for them...and study as much as I want to, using those books... OR I can pay the price for something like Logos and do a lot of studying faster and doing research faster --- get my sermon and class preparation done a lot quicker .. then go dig ditches in my yard.

Now if I'm going to be digging lots of ditches and long ditches.... instead of a shovel....I might want to opt for a bigger tool... like a backhoe or ditchwitch or some such tool. Which costs a lot more money than a shovel.

So it depends on what you want to do with your study of God's Word. If just a little... then buy just the books.... if you really want to do research and such... well.... maybe Logos is not that bad of a deal....

That's my 2cents, which with $2.50 will get you a cup of coffee in some places. [*-)]

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145588#Comment_1145588

The car not going anywhere picture is telling.

1Cor10 31

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145596#Comment_1145596

As a libertarian,

(i) companies are free to set prices as they deem fit (be it a firm selling Christian products or otherwise), and

(ii) Customers are free to buy from any firm they want.

The only time we need interference from the government is when one entity's freedom is infringed upon by another. [Freedom doesn't include free Christian resources.]

Unless Logos/Faithlife is a monopoly where they can price gouge their customers, there is no need for interference. Let free markets rule!

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145612#Comment_1145612

This discussion is rather straight forward I think....FL=money. Not an attack...not a criticism...just an observation on my part.

Bob Price

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145622#Comment_1145622

This discussion is rather straight forward I think....FL=money. Not an attack...not a criticism...just an observation on my part.

So, is that a good thing or a bad thing? When I think of FL, I think of a company that creates software that I use every single day, and which continues to do so partly because of the money that I spend with them. Does “FL=money “ in the same way that “McDonald’s=money”?

Dan Lioy, Ph.D.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145622#Comment_1145622

I think the syllogism preceding Bob's response is inaccurate and, when taken to an extreme, can leave the uncharitable impression that FL is entirely mercenary in its ethos and aim. It would be more accurate to assert that FL provides a product and/or service, for which it charges a fee. Doing so, in turn, enables FL to fulfill its stated mission, which many of its longtime customers find to be commendable and worth supporting.

Mike Childs

I do not mean to be insulting, but I find this post bewildering.

Of course, Faithlife is a business. Who said otherwise? It happens to a business owned and operated by Christian people. who love God's Word. That is my conclusion after being a customer for more than 25 years. Like any business, if they do not make a profit, they are soon out of business.

Do you have a job? Do you own a business? Do you work for a paycheck?

Also, I would hardly say Microsoft has a monopoly. Apple gives them plenty of competition.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145627#Comment_1145627

This discussion is rather straight forward I think....FL=money. Not an attack...not a criticism...just an observation on my part.

So, is that a good thing or a bad thing? When I think of FL, I think of a company that creates software that I use every single day, and which continues to do so partly because of the money that I spend with them. Does “FL=money “ in the same way that “McDonald’s=money”?

It's neither in my view. I think the observation that FL is akin to a business like McDonald's pretty much sums up all the endless debate about the Christian nature of FL...its like a McDonald's.

Darrell Tan

You can get Logos 8 Basic for free. That includes 2 English translations, the Lexham Bible Dictionary, A Pocket Lexicon to the Greek New Testament, Abridged BDB, and other resources. You can add, also for free, the SBL Greek New Testament, the Lexham Hebrew Bible, and 28 titles of the Crucial Questions Series, among others; on top of that, cumulatively, free monthly resources from Logos, Verbum, and FL Ebooks. You can get all that without paying a cent, and you'll be helped quite a bit, in my opinion, to prepare a sermon.

Mike Tourangeau

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145647#Comment_1145647

I want then to be a business....a good stable, profitable business that does well for years to come. I have invested heavily in them and I have benefited from them immensely, if they go under I would be sorry.

(Besides this, I am a Capitalist, Bob built a great company and deserves to profit from the incredible value he has created in Faithlife)

Sean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145639#Comment_1145639

It's neither in my view. I think the observation that FL is akin to a business like McDonald's pretty much sums up all the endless debate about the Christian nature of FL...its like a McDonald's.

I beg to differ. It's like an Applebee's.

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145658#Comment_1145658

Jesus didn’t charge for preaching but him and his disciples were supported by several women 👍😁👌

DAL

Chong Shipei

Faithlife is a business, and I am glad that at least, there is a business dedicated to Christian software.

Too many businesses, these days, are dedicated to the wrong things.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145656#Comment_1145656

I want then to be a business....a good stable, profitable business that does well for years to come.

Profit = Revenue - Expenses

For a business to remain profitable, revenue must consistently be greater than expenses.

Thankful for Bob Pritchett's reply on 11 Nov 2015 => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/118786/779521.aspx#779521 about payment plan changes that included:

Yes, like many businesses paid over time we can take our receivables to a bank and borrow against them, but you can't borrow against the whole balance (more like 60-75%), and now you're also paying interest (thankfully low right now), etc.

This is why credit cards exist, and why many products sold with time payments have another company manage the payments. It's because time payments is its own business... and while a producer like Faithlife can 'do a little bit', if it becomes too big a part of their business, they have to either reign it in or push it off on another company whose financial model -- and backing -- is designed for it.

I'm sure you're thinking that we can 'make it up in volume' or 'once it starts going payments from last year will cover costs for this year', and that's all true, to a point -- except that if your profits aren't outrageous (ours aren't) and your growth isn't a rocket ship (ours isn't) and you aren't rolling around in excess cash (we aren't) and don't have a venture capital fund backing you (we don't) and you can't borrow 100% of your receivables (we can't) and you are deferring revenue but not expenses, you can hit a math wall.

Faithlife corporation profits are not outrageous (seem to remember reading under 2 % overall), refer to 5 Jan 2016 thread => Personnel changes at Faithlife (layoffs were needed for corporation to remain profitable).

Recommend reading vyrso eBook => Fire Someone Today by Bob Pritchett that includes profitable insight:

A profitable business can stay in business while an unprofitable business disappears: e.g. Borders (after nearly 40 years of being in business)

Thankful for many friendly forum and Faithlife discussions: have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn. Thankful for many Faithlife employees, including CEO, interacting with forum discussions Big Smile

Keep Smiling Smile

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145686#Comment_1145686

I have a Stihl chain saw. There are cheaper chain saws... but I bought a Stihl because I know the thing works and works well.

I was in WS, prices were cheaper and I loved WS. But I am learning Logos and I really don't want to go back to WS... I like Logos and I do hope they stay in business and not become a WS. I want a Bible program that will be around and I don't have to go through and spend my time going through another "learning curve" just to do what I love... studying God's Word.

Do I like the high prices of Stihl? No. But I like that it works well. I like that Logos works well.

I did have sticker shock when I came to Logos... but I do like that Logos works well. And so far.... no one has made me buy anything!

Kaye Anderson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145588#Comment_1145588

I became a Christian in the fall of 2009, at 47 years old, and God used Logos Software as part of that process. He still uses it in my everyday life and growth. I will always be grateful that a company, while earning money, chose to do something that matters. They could have used their skills and funds to go in a lot of directions but they chose to make God's Word more accessible to me.

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145769#Comment_1145769

I became a Christian in the fall of 2009, at 47 years old, and God used Logos Software as part of that process. He still uses it in my everyday life and growth. I will always be grateful that a company, while earning money, chose to do something that matters. They could have used their skills and funds to go in a lot of directions but they chose to make God's Word more accessible to me.

Thank you, Kaye, for redeeming this thread. God's ways are higher than ours.

David Paul

Now where can I find a passage in the Bible where Jesus asked for money before he would preach or heal.

Yeah, well I guess it's a good thing Faithlife isn't preaching or healing. They are, however, providing TOOLS to those who do...tools that cost money to create and produce. And I do know what Yeishuua` said about workers: "The worker is worthy of his wage." It sounds a lot like you are begrudging them of their livelihood.

Olli-Pekka Ylisuutari

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145689#Comment_1145689

I have a Stihl chain saw. There are cheaper chain saws... but I bought a Stihl because I know the thing works and works well.

Do I like the high prices of Stihl? No. But I like that it works well. I like that Logos works well.

A bit Off-topic, but couldn't resist the temptation, Xnman: All the forestry and the firewoods used in the fireplaces of my summer-house has been done and will be done using a Stihl Chain saw. I agree also on the Logos-part! (Saving dead tree books by buying Logos, since the trees are desperately needed elsewhere...) [;)]

Gerald

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145558#Comment_1145558

I'm surprised that this is even a question. Yes, of course FL is a business. There is no way in the world that all of these fantastic resources would just be given away. The software itself is a marvelous achievement--shouldn't those who worked so hard on it receive payment for their work? The fact is that FL does give away an amazing amount of stuff, for which I am very grateful. I have a huge library which did cost money, but not nearly as much as if I had purchased all these as physical books.

Try this: go to any bookstore that sells books in which you are interested. Go up to the clerk and ask him/her if you can just walk out with any books you like without paying. I'm guessing they will not agree to that. Does that make them bad people? No, because that's the business they're in, and they'd like to feed their families as well.

Faithlife has produced an amazing piece of software that enriches our lives in our study of God's Word. The free version alone is probably better than what you could have purchased only a few years ago. I am thankful for the number of resources that are available for free, but I certainly don't begrudge FL for attempting to make a profit. If you do, there's nothing forcing you to buy their products.

[Y][Y][Y]

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145854#Comment_1145854

Faithlife is a business just as much as a Christian bookstore is a business. There’s rent to be paid and people who are on a payroll that need to be paid for their time and effort. Software, books, contracts, accounting, etc. don’t just appear out of thin air.

Christians are not freeloaders! Instead we should be thankful for what we have and can afford with our own efforts 👍😁👌

Blessings and Happy New Year 2021 🎆🎊🎈

DAL

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145860#Comment_1145860

Christians are not freeloaders! I

Well, that depends on the time of the end. Apparently, dumping your job was a prerequisite (2 Thes if I remember, though I never understood the logic).

But back to the criticality, and that is 'chain saws'. You can get yourself into serious trouble here with the wrong saw (fire/sparking). Stihl is just a disaster waiting to happen. Better a battery-Ryobi that might only explode in your garage during charging (so much safer).

Olli-Pekka Ylisuutari

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145879#Comment_1145879

But back to the criticality, and that is 'chain saws'. You can get yourself into serious trouble here with the wrong saw (fire/sparking). Stihl is just a disaster waiting to happen. Better a battery-Ryobi that might only explode in your garage during charging (so much safer).

[:D]

David Wanat

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145879#Comment_1145879

Christians are not freeloaders! I

Well, that depends on the time of the end. Apparently, dumping your job was a prerequisite (2 Thes if I remember, though I never understood the logic).

I think St. Paul had a few choice words to say to those people [;)]

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145888#Comment_1145888

I think St. Paul had a few choice words to say to those people

Unfortunately, St Paul finished off with what early on was known as the 'curiously' exception (Wycliff 1382). It required almost two centuries to switch over to the 'busybody exception' (Tyndale 1536). For the curious, the greek definition of the 'busybody' most often pointed to Plato Apol 19 B, where Socrates was just too 'fussy'.

Have a nice New Year, David!