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Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Dec 30 2020 4:50 PM

After taking a quick look to the Counseling guide in L9, I decided to Google more about counseling to expand my conceptual framework.

So I noticed that there is something like a continuum...

Christian Life Coaching: goals, score cards, key performance indicators, work breakdown structure, planning keeping in sight strengths and weaknesses, etc. Maybe working with a normal healthy individual to work in specific areas to achieve more of their potential.

Could this be related to stewardship areas, and basic obstacles can be identified and planned to be overcome:

Pastor G. Nunez gave an example of a stewardship topical list in a Christian TV program in 2011 (Aqui entre nos): [translated roughly]

Words of my mouth
assets
time
marital status: single, married
abilities / talents
gifts
family (raises children and loves wife)
local church: community / evangelism
physical body
personal salvation
Earth (environment etc.)

Deeper issues: traumas, mental health issues, unresolved conflict, etc. more related to therapy...

 Some may be basic and not to hard to find, explore, and allow counseled person, to be aware, understand and help come up with a plan of action.

Then there are deeper issues, that definitively need professional help of a certified therapist, where supposedly deep unconscious stuff needs to be explored and dealt with.

Deliverance ministry: some stuff is not related to potential, and actualization of gifts, and talents, neither about deep buried unconscious stuff needing pro therapy, but are actually serious spiritual problems, that need deliverance ministry.

In your knowledge are there resources that clearly explain the relation between:

Christian life coaching: christian development according to pious dreams put by God in believers, that includes responsible stewardship.

Counseling from a Christian perspective, making sure that beliefs, orthopraxis, and the like are aligned with the Christian worldview.

Therapy (psycho, etc), that allows easy cases to be explored from different angles to gain insight and way forward for betterment.  Also  that explains when more medically oriented help is needed due to the severity of the mental health condition developing.

And delivery ministry, that many times proves effective when the above cannot deliver the results expected.

I found the following:

https://www.logos.com/product/192626/transformative-encounters-the-intervention-of-god-in-christian-counseling-and-pastoral-care

So besides other resources that come to your mind, it would be also good to read about your opinion on the topic and any experiences.

https://www.logos.com/product/186205/a-divine-revelation-of-deliverance

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2020 5:18 PM

Until/unless the Counseling includes spiritual friendship/spiritual direction/spiritual mentoring/healing prayer ministry, I personally will have little use for the counseling guide, nor do I know many for whom it will be of use. I do see the value of the Guide for a significant group of people - just not the people in my circles.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 31 2020 7:48 AM

Hi MJ:

The ontology in the making looks real good:

https://community.logos.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Components.PostAttachments/00.01.12.99.13/hierarchy_2D00_ct_2D00_cleaned.htm

But as you have mentioned it needs more sections to be added.

I see a lot of potential, it would be great if one could do a mind map index in canvas, with the particular topics that have grouped locations in resources that have important relevant information, and could somehow be linked with the counseling guide.

Some areas could be: (even mini ministries could be started to help the sheep with some areas as needed)

For P & C, deliverance ministry is a must!

Now some are more spiritual than others, but you will be surprised...

https://www.amazon.com/Train-Something-Greater-Athletes-Spiritual-ebook/dp/B0081TIGQM/ref=sr_1_35?dchild=1&keywords=train+for+crossfit&qid=1609429548&s=digital-text&sr=1-35

Peace and grace.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 31 2020 2:39 PM

Several categories you list, I consider inappropriate and would prefer to see Faithlife expand its features and resources in other directions.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 31 2020 2:43 PM

Yes, but some of the categories tie in well with noet products.

If not mistaken I think you mentioned once that we cannot assume that others have had the same experiences that we've had.

Maybe some of the cats will be of use to some practitioners.

MJ, look at what I found in an old thread:

Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:10 AM

We cannot have a collection that addresses the occult without the venerable German author Kurt E. Koch (deceased; and note: he is not the living Swiss Roman Catholic born in 1950).

Kurt Koch was a pioneer regarding our modern understanding of occult and demon possession.  What makes him so valuable is that he has both a belief/experience in the reality of the occult and demonic activity as well as a zeal to differentiate that from mental illness.  We see the Bible itself making such differentiations (sickness, possession, sickness caused by Satan, etc).  I encountered him while doing research on the occult for a youth counseling class while working with a teenager who was caught up in the occult.  Here are some of Kurt Koch's (a Lutheran) books dealing with the occult (he has many others on different topics--second coming, speaking in tongues, missionary field experience, etc):

  1. Christian Counseling and Occultism: A Complete Guidebook to Occult Oppression and Deliverance
  2. Demonology Past and Present: Identifying and Overcoming Demonic Strongholds
  3. Occult ABC: Exposing Occult Practices and Ideologies
  4. Occult Bondage and Deliverance: Counseling the Occultly Oppressed
  5. Occult Practices and Beliefs: A Biblical Examination from A to Z
  6. The Lure of the Occult: 193 Case Studies of Occult Enslavement and Deliverance

Finding a complete listing is not easy.  There may be other titles of his with the Occult theme that are different, or just rebranded.  However, his insight was groundbreaking in its day, and still a benchmark/standard for serious study in occult today.

Kurt E. Koch studied Medicine as well as Theology, was a priest of the Lutheran Church in the state of Baden.  He specialized in youth work, occult counseling, and evangelism (even being a missionary in Africa).  (info taken from the German language Wikipedia entry)

I whole-heartily recommend his work.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 31 2020 2:51 PM

Hamilton Ramos:
Yes, but some of the categories tie in well with noet products.

Noet has been discontinued ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 31 2020 2:59 PM

MJ, take divorce coaching:

Divorce is a reality in many places. I think the Bible allows it if there has been fornication before the marriage.

Now in real life, many times, is not due to irreconcilable differences, some P & C believers have discovered that many times is the occultist work of a third person that has an ungodly agenda.

But thanks to God, and His Gifts granted by His Holy Spirit, many times in some P & C churches the scheme has been discovered and neutralized.

So from a bird's eye view:

People should learn proactive betterment for better marriages (communication, couple life planning, get together to negotiate the basics in key topics:

Money, religion, raising children, chores, expression of love (aural, visual, kinesthetic), love language, etc.

That should take 70% of problems to a minimum as far as avoiding drop that overflows the glass.

Then we have to look at certain trust issues, and patterns that have been happening in the families  (apathy, coldness, infidelity, etc.) to see if traumas, or some other deep issues are at play, and become an obstacle for an abundant married life.

Last but not least, there has to be a watch in the Church for predators (spiritual), that want to mess up adequately functional marriages. Third persons coveting married partners, and trying to use occultism to break apart what God has united...

We need counselors / ministers with spiritual weapons to break spiritual wolves (unclean spirits) backs with the rod of the pastor (Holy Spirit gifts)... that is where delivery and spiritual warfare ministry kicks in.

I have Catholic friends that have started couples ministries after having problems themselves, by doing some of the earlier above have been successful into averting divorces.

They do understand that sometimes a deeper spiritual issue is involved, and the help of Charismatics in their tradition has been of great help.

In the end, we want to be faithful to the Word of God: what God united, men should not separate.

With all that said, sometimes, people do not want to be helped (eg abuser in a relation), and victims cannot continue in such predicament.

I guess is best to separate and not divorce, but then you deny the chance of renewing life. If the person yoked unequally at the beginning and was part of the problem, divorce may be granted...  See why is important to educate persons from childhood, so that they do not find themselves unequally yoked at marriage where problems can come up that may cause divorce.

Peace and grace.

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 31 2020 3:02 PM

Renamed, not discontinued:

https://ebooks.noet.com/search?query=Dictionary%20of&sortBy=PriceHigh&limit=60&page=1&ownership=all&filters=status-live_Status&geographicAvailability=all

I have many noet books, that tie in neatly with some of the categories.

Note also that the categories were picked from a random article on counseling, but are wide in scope, to show the potential that counseling has.

All I am saying is that as the Lutheran priest mentioned, it seems that mental health is separate from the works of darkness in occultism, and thus they should be dealt with differently.

More tools to help men of God into understanding and being able to ascertain the difference are welcome, I think that counseling guide can be one of those tools.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 31 2020 3:12 PM

Noet software has been discontinued. The resources are on Faithlife Ebooks i.e. https://general.ebooks.faithlife.com/

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 31 2020 3:40 PM

Correct, they changed the name, but the resources that were available in noet are still available, and many tie in neatly with some categories.

I came in contact with more charismatic version of the faith through martial arts, so I am into a high view of sports ministry.

Financial well being in modern times can be tied to cooperative (self organized) movement, and food security could be facilitated through Aquaponic initiatives.

Moral and ethical governance is important to me, I have witnessed the nefastous effect amorality has in secular biz ops. Not a nice thing, thank God we did not move away from Unions and were able to counter some of the worst stuff (with the aid of God of course, but using such means).

The list goes on, God moves in marvelous ways, humans cannot box God at all, He moves and acts as He pleases.

Happy new year.

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 31 2020 6:14 PM

Interesting quote:

"Whether we think about it or not, whether it’s in our job title or not, all of us engage in counseling. A friend shares a problem with us and asks for advice. A younger Christian we’re mentoring asks us for counsel on what he should do with his life. A married friend needs encouragement because of difficulties in her marriage. A church member confesses that he struggles with an addictive behavior. Your teenage daughter is concerned about being accepted at school. For better or worse, accurate or inaccurate, biblical or secular, what you say next is “counseling.”"

 Lawrence, M. (2010). Biblical Theology in the Life of the Church: A Guide for Ministry (p. 202). Wheaton, IL: Crossway.

 

Never saw the topic in such way, but as you can see it encompasses many different themes.

The book goes on to an interesting conclusion:

"... So our problem is not fundamentally behavioral, though it will show itself in our behavior. Our problem is not fundamentally mental, though it will show itself in our thinking. Our problem is fundamentally religious. Our problem is idolatry—disordered worship."

 Lawrence, M. (2010). Biblical Theology in the Life of the Church: A Guide for Ministry (p. 203). Wheaton, IL: Crossway.

 

Note that they may be up to something, and notice that the book itself is not about counseling.

Modern idolatry: Nationalism, sports, capitalism, politics, consumerism, chic women, etc.  Was it Calvin that said that the "human heart is but a factory of idols" [rough paraphrase from flawed memory].

See my liked specialty is Systematic Theology, but I see it more inclusive than usual, to me it must include Christian life, ethics, moral theology, social teaching, and even practical theology and ministry.

So being curious about where does counseling fit in ST, found the above book.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 31 2020 8:19 PM

lex orandi lex credendi  from very early Christianity.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 1 2021 7:43 AM

MJ. Smith:
lex orandi lex credendi  from very early Christianity.

https://www.logos.com/product/17568/ancient-fire-the-power-of-christian-rituals-in-contemporary-worship

Posts 109
Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2021 3:51 PM

Deliverance is biblical, commanded and is VASTLY under-used by the body of Christ. It is the key to many problems. Logos needs to include deliverance as a topic.

Some authors and
resources:

John Eckhardt

  • Deliverance and Spiritual Warfare Manual
  • More in Logos. Click Eckhardt's name above.

Frank & Ida Mae Hammonds

  • Pigs in the Parlor

Derek Prince
Kathryn Kuhlman
Win Worley

One reason deliverance is so under-valued is that it is not a highly esteemed ministry like homilectics and hermeneutics, but rather is a down-and-dirty ministry among the lowly in  brokeness and bondage. That's just human-- to want respect. Another reason is that some are not yet confident in their authority and power in Christ. Or kinda just scared of the demonic. My point is not to put anyone down, but rather to show that some of us actually do this ministry and it would be great if Logos would have this topic covered.

I hope you find the authors and resources helpful.

Blessings! 

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 22 2021 6:57 AM

Thanks Scott for your input.

You mention the demonic, any particular resources you consider that deal with the topic clearly, accurately, and Biblically?

I agree with you that the topic seems to be low profile, but maybe some traditions do not have experience with it.

Now,  just for the records, just because a P&C ministry does some form of deliverance, does not mean they are in the OK.

I have seen P & C ministers fall to the ground showing signs of ungodly spirit influence, when Holiness P. ministers started to pray. So it seems they were not actually ok.

At other times I have heard of ministers that start a conversation with the ungodly influence, when in the Bible Jesus ordered them to "shut up" and leave.

By the way, what is your take on generational problems, some say that ungodly influences (maybe demonic) may be at work, others try to take a more western naturalistic view:

https://www.amazon.com/Didnt-Start-You-Inherited-Family-ebook/dp/B013D6640M/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=it%27s+not+your+fault&qid=1611326870&s=digital-text&sr=1-6

Thanks ahead of time for your input.

Peace and grace.

Posts 109
Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 22 2021 9:54 PM

I think those ministers and resources are where I would start. Google them. Here is a good site to explore with lots of content and a shop.

Generational sins are real and biblical. But God, in His love and grace, can deliver us from them.

Yes, as noted talking with ungodly spirits is unnecessary. We can talk to the Holy Spirit who will not lie to us or seduce us. Be commanding and decisive with ungodly spirits. Few questions; maybe name and number, then OUT-- in Jesus' name of course!

As to why one falls after ministry of any kind, we would have to look at each case by case.

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 25 2021 6:42 PM

Thanks for the input Scott. 

Posts 43
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 27 2021 1:35 AM

I have been trying to use some of the counseling resources in my own full time practice in professional counseling (LISW/LCSW). Be clear some books about talking to people from a predigested data base or a few books isn't equivalent to a master level education, 2 years of supervised practice beyond degree, and a national certified test.  At best Logos's material here is useful as a resource to understand mental health issue and reference material.  At this point it's not clear to me that FL has even taken the time to consult with experts in the field on the counseling resources beyond the books fed into the search engine.  Counseling resources of Logos is a good general tool for information....not an AI that gives clinical advice.   

Posts 1033
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 28 2021 6:07 AM

Rene:

Valid remarks. Many wrestle with: where is the boundary to Christian counseling? When should cases be referred to pros? and the like.

Problem is that as someone noted, not all is about mental health. Like someone mentioned in a book: mental health does not make pigs jump off a cliff...

The topic is very important one, because there are important Christian worldview issues involved:

Take the gender identity situation. Some resource in Logos mentioned that research showed that when a gland in the brain does not develop as should, such problems ensue. (maybe that is why some say "born this way").

Should that be taken as a sickness issue? what is the probable cause of the gland's underdevelopment? can we affect such? how? 

Now I have heard stories of persons with gender identity problems, that in P & C contexts, have been cured of such problem (they through the grace of God knew something was not right)... they have allegedly felt a presence depart them (maybe unclean spirit), and who knows maybe the gland was set to normal by God.

All the mental health counseling, advice, that you could try to give would be useless, unless God Himself sets the problem straight.

So part of the Christian worldview comes into the limelight, is Jesus Christ alive and well? (He is the miracle worker), and does He show up where 2 or more believers are gathered worshipping in Spirit and truth, to continue His good works?

The evidence points to the affirmative (many books in FL that study modern day miracles), so just because particular groups try to deny God's reality (He is naturally supernatural, and as we are the ones living in a broken region of His Kingdom, He can come and set things straight for the love of His elect ones), does not mean that their theological construct jibes with His reality (which is Ultimate).

Interesting topic, much needs to be further researched. Peace and grace.

Posts 1517
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 28 2021 6:21 AM

MJ. Smith:
Until/unless the Counseling includes spiritual friendship/spiritual direction/spiritual mentoring/healing prayer ministry, I personally will have little use for the counseling guide

Agreed. I think the Counseling Guide has potential but I also suspect that it will go the way of the Theology Guide with its over-reliance on the Lexham Survey of Theology since it's so narrowly conceived. Right now it's another guide I don't use and don't see myself using in the near future.

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